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Author Topic:   The suffering servant of Isaiah 53:4-6
AchLou

Posts: 11
Registered: Dec 2000

posted 12-23-2000 09:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AchLou     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Shalom Eliyah,
quote:
Isaiah 53:5 But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed.

Whose transgressions is the Servant wounded for? Whose iniquities? Who is healed by His stripes? According to Isaiah, it is "our" iniquities and transgressions, the chastisement of "our" peace was upon Him and by His stripes "we" are healed. "we" in this instance would be Judah since Isaiah is from the tribe of Judah. So for instance, when it says "we despised Him" then the "we" would be Judah. This makes it impossible for the Servant of Isaiah 53 to be Judah since the servant is distinguished from Judah. Also, how can Judah be a trespass offering? It doesn't make any sense. Yet, you are willing to accept all this and reject the record in Matthew-John simply because you can't believe it happened.


I don’t understand your question of, “how can Judah be a trespass offering?”

I have to clarify some of my statements in the previous post. Isaiah is not that easy to be understood. Especially, if one has a mind that is biased already by reading the NT first. I may be wrong here, but I believe that Isaiah is not only from Judah, but also from Jacob (i.e. Israel) HE and WE of Isaiah 53 are the same. HE represents the body of Jacob, his servant, and WE the members thereof, or the whole family of Israel collectively. Let me clear at least 53:4 before moving on to the next verse or so. Maybe I can cover 53:6 at the same time. At least you'll know where I stand.

Isaiah 53:4-6 * 4 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by Elohim, smitten by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and Yahweh has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isaiah 44:1 * "But now listen, O Jacob, my servant, Israel, whom I have chosen.

Jeremiah 30:17 * But I will restore you (i.e. “Jacob the Infirmity carrier. NOTE: not individual people, but Jacob as a whole”) to health and heal your wounds,' (i.e. “Jacob’s figure of speech wounds produced healing at the end of his suffering”) declares Yahweh, `because you are called an outcast, Zion for whom no one cares.' (i.e. “we considered him all wounded, stricken, rejected and forgotten of Yahweh”)

Jeremiah 50:6-7 * "My people have been lost sheep (i.e. “We [Jacob] like sheep”); their shepherds have led them astray and caused them to roam on the mountains. They wandered over mountain and hill and forgot their own resting place (i.e. “He [Jacob] was now laden collectively with the iniquity or transgressions of all the members of his family body”).
7 Whoever found them devoured them (i.e. “He [Jacob] was bruised, even devoured”); their enemies said, `We are not guilty, for they sinned against Yahweh (i.e. “For our [Jacob] transgressions Jacob was bruised”), their true pasture, Yahweh, the hope of their fathers.'

Psalms 119:176 * I (i.e. “Jacob”) have strayed like a lost sheep. Seek your servant
(i.e. “Jacob”), for I have not forgotten your commands.

There are many more references. They are all related to Jacob, not to a rejected Messiah. I don’t believe that Yahushua can be considered “rejected” because he was very popular most of the time. Although, I want to stop one moment and tell you that the REAL HaMaschiach will not be rejected, he will not be bruised, or hurt, or discouraged, or will ever experience any such feeling. He will be a successful Messiah. Not a doubtful one of whom even John the Baptist was wondering if he was the one, or should he wait for another. So much so for someone who is supposed to herald the coming of HaMaschiach. I’m not scoffing. My level of quality assurance is very strict. If Yahushua is the Messiah, let’s subject him to the acid test.

Isaiah 42:4 * he will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes justice on earth. In his law the islands will put their hope."

As you well know, Yahushua didn’t deliver. He was very discouraged, too. He needed company to pray with him. He sweated blood. He feared death. He asked to skip the cup. He didn’t complete his measure of suffering, Paul had to do it. In fact, Paul says that he was crucified jointly with “Christ” and that “Christ“ was now living IN him. Paul said that he was doing it for the church’s sake. Without Paul’s help “Jesus” work would be incomplete. I know that this is declared false, but that is the way it is written in the NT. Even you had a hard time explaining. Where in the Tanakh are we told that the Messiah will indwell the believer? Like in… Colossians 1:27 (NIV) To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

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EliYah

Posts: 1048
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posted 12-25-2000 10:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for EliYah     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Lou,

I asked "How can Judah be a trespass offering because it says in Isaiah 53:


Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased Yahweh to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Yahweh shall prosper in his hand.

No matter who you believe this Servant is, the above scripture says that He would be an "Offering for sin", which in Hebrew is the word "Asham". "Asham" is consistently translated and does mean "Trespass offering". A true trespass offering must be without blemish and perfect. This is how this servant is described throughout Isaiah 53. He was a "righteous" Servant that would deal prudently. He had done no evil violence (injustice) and there was no deceit in His mouth. This automatically disqualifies your interpretation of the Servant being "Jacob":

Isaiah 58:1 Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.

In fact, the Messiah was to come and redeem those in Jacob who repent:

Isaiah 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith Yahweh.

The Messiah was not discouraged, though He had the weight of the world on His shoulders, He pressed on and accomplished what He was sent for. His desire for the disciples to pray with Him was so that they would not "enter into temptation". But they didn't pray, perhaps this is why they fell away. Your quote from Isaiah 42:4, does it speak of the coming Messiah? If so, then you just identified the Messiah as the "Servant". I suppose you want it both ways, depending on which one attacks Yahweh's anointed. I think it is time to quit nit-picking and start seeing the obvious. One thing that is beginning to be obvious to me is that I am probably wasting my time discussing these things with you and answering your questions because your mind is probably already made up. You ignore what you cannot refute and go on to find something else. This cannot continue forever.

------------------
With love in His service,

EliYah

[This message has been edited by EliYah (edited 12-25-2000).]

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