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Author Topic:   Did "Jesus" complete his suffering?
AchLou

Posts: 11
Registered: Dec 2000

posted 12-10-2000 03:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AchLou     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Shalom Eliyah,

I found my former post and the URL that I was looking for, thank you. I admire your fairness.

In your URL on "Why we must believe that Yahushua is the Messiah" You are saying that Yahushua is the "man of sorrows" based on your quotes of the NT, but you are not presenting all the facts. If I were to believe that the servant of Isaiah 53:3 is Yahushua based on his sorrows, grief and affliction, then I must qualify that the statements in Isaiah 53:3 were not fully fulfilled in the person of Yahushua, but that he needed the assistance of another person or persons. A complete documentation on this subject might seriously jeopardize your premise that Yahushua was the only one fulfilling this prophecy by himself without anyone helping him to complete his atoning suffering. The NT states that "Jesus" didnít suffer by himself, but that someone else had to come over and complete his suffering.

quote:
He would be a man of sorrows (53:3)
He would be acquainted with grief (53:3)
He was afflicted (53:7)

..A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
Matt 26:37 And He took with Him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and He
began to be sorrowful and deeply distressed. 38 Then He said to them, "My soul
is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay here and watch with Me." 39 He
went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, "O My Father,
if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but
as You will."


Your quote is truncated. I would like to add the full context to it...

Matt 26:40 (NIV) Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?" he asked Peter.
41 "Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."
42 He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."
43 When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy.
44 So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.

Actually, Luke 22:44 shows the full extent of "Jesus" sorrows, grief and affliction (NIV) And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.

I see here "Jesus" praying 3 times in a very scary and fearful mode about his unwillingness to drink the cup. The fear of death was so severe that "his sweat was like drops of blood." According to the NT record this event was used to teach "Jesus" how to be obedient "unto death." His prayer was answered and he didn't have to drink the full cup, but apparently only a portion of it. Paul is stating in his own handwriting that he was the chosen one to complete in his own body of flesh and blood what was lacking of the sufferings of "Christ." Otherwise, without Paul or anyone else that would complete the suffering initiated by "Jesus" the salvation of the body of Christ (i.e. the Christian church) would have been impossible! Paul is the first Christian in recorded history to bear the stigmata. I am verifying the accuracy of what I'm reading in more than one Bible version.

Hebrews 5:7 (NIV) During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.
8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered

Colossians 1:24 (NIV) Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

Colossians 1:24 (BBE) Now I have joy in my pain because of you, and in my flesh I undergo whatever is still needed to make the sorrows of Christ complete, for the salvation of his body, the church;

Colossians 1:24 (WEY) Now I can find joy amid my sufferings for you, and I fill up in my own person whatever is lacking in Christ's afflictions on behalf of His Body, the Church.

Galatians 6:17 (NIV) Finally, let no one cause me trouble, for I bear on my body the marks of Jesus.

Galatians 6:17 (ASV) Henceforth, let no man trouble me; for I bear branded on my body the marks of Jesus.

When I read the "gospels" I find that about 99 per cent of the time Yahushua moved about in a sorrow, grief and affliction free environment while most of the time the Jews throughout history didn't fare that well at all. That is why I still think that the 2 major attributes of the servant in Isaiah 53:3, (1)the rejection and (2)the suffering can only be applicable to Israel. Maybe I'm looking at this more objectively than you do.

So here is my question. If I were to positively identify the servant of Isaiah 53:3 as Yahushua then how come Yeshayahu/Isaiah doesnít say that the sorrows, grief and affliction of the servant/Messiah are only partial and that someone else will complete what is lacking of it? It seems to be that there was a measure of sorrow, grief and suffering established already by the Almighty that "Jesus" was unable to bear and that is why he didn't want to drink from the cup. BTW, I'm not sure if I need to believe that there is atonement in the sorrows, grief and affliction of the servant/Messiah, either. Please, tell me.

PS/ I thank you for the reply I got to my question. You seem to accept so very naturally that the same crowds of Jews that throughout "Jesus" life were so very supportive of him in just a day or two they were persuaded to turn against him so viciously that they demanded that his blood be upon them and their children. Hmmm, my faith is very weak to accept that again, for the second time, so easily.

[This message has been edited by AchLou (edited 12-10-2000).]

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EliYah

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posted 12-11-2000 01:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for EliYah     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Lou,

1. I do not necessarily believe Paul was saying that since Yahushua hadn't suffered adequately, that he had to finish off the suffering. It seems to me he was saying that he hadn't yet lived up to the Messiah's example of suffering and that is what he believed was lacking. Even with your analogy, I could see where Yahushua living in us suffers persecution when we suffer persecution:


Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Master, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

2. Yahushua was not unwilling to undergo the suffering, He was willing to do what His Father's will was. "Not my will, but your will be done". Nowhere in the text does it say that Yahweh changed anything in regards to His suffering or deferred it to others. This is a figment of your own imagination in trying to invent an accusation against Paul and/or the Messiah.

3. It's not a matter of willingness to accept what I think the crowd did, it's a matter of seeing what the scriptures say about the crowd as He entered Yerushalayim and what they did on Abib 14.

------------------
With love in His service,

EliYah

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