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| Author | Topic: Yahushua vs Yahusha |
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angeL217 Posts: 352 |
I read this study on another forum and thought I would share it with you. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Shalom Everyone~ Recently there has been a new study where the pronunciation of Yahusha’s Name is under fire. Here is the link to a site written by Tom Martincic, it is called the "Scroll of EliYah" ( http://www.eliyah.com/yahushua.html ) linking to a study where he states emphatically – “However, it is easily proven to be incorrect” and “So the pronunciation "Yahusha" can be proven wrong by simply looking at the scriptures and knowing that in order to ignore the waw (oo sound) after the shin (sh sound), we have to ignore the scriptures which clearly give us those letters as part of the Messiah's name” This study seems to hinge itself on the fact that Moshe’s successor “Joshua” is the exact same pronunciation as the Messiah’s Name. The study that we will provide will refute this idea proving that the Strong’s is inaccurate concerning the pronunciation of this name and more correctly, should be pronounced Yahusha. If one would maintain Moshe’s successor’s name is Yahoshua, please take this into account – Yahushua was not the deliverer, he was one who was delivered. Remember him and Caleb were the only ones who were delivered of the ones who died in the wilderness, they were allowed to go into the promised land. Anyway, it was neither Moshe nor Yahushua/Yahusha who delivered the children of Yisra’el out of Mitsrayim, it was Yahuah. Shemoth 14:30: STUDY LINK: We hope the readers here would take the time to look at a study concerning the validity of pronouncing our Messiah’s Name as Yahusha. We also have a few Scriptures that prove Yahuah called Himself Yasha.
1) to save, be saved, be delivered a) (Niphal) b) (Hiphil) Shemoth 14:30: 1 Sam. 14:6: 1 Sam. 14:23: 1 Sam 17:47: 2 Sam. 8:6: 2 Sam. 8:14: 1 Chron. 11:14: 1 Chron 16:35: 1 Chron. 18:6: 2 Chron. 32:22: Psalms 3:7: Psalms 20:6: Psalms 55:16: Psalms 106:21: Prov. 20:22: YeshaYahu 33:22: YeshaYahu 38:20: YeshaYahu 43:3: YeshaYahu 43:11-12: YeshaYahu 45:15: YeshaYahu 45:21: YeshaYahu 49:26: YeshaYahu 60:16: YirmeYahu 30:11: 11 ‘For I am with you,’ declares YAHUAH, ‘YASHA YirmeYahu 31:7: YirmeYahu 33:16: Yez 34:22: Zech. 9:16: Zech. 12:7: It becomes very clear that to prove that the Name Yahusha is not a valid pronunciation of the Name these Scriptures provided must be taken into account. Shalom, angeL [This message has been edited by angeL217 (edited 04-27-2008).] |
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angeL217 Posts: 352 |
This was a response to the original post on the other forum. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I was convicted by the Name Yahusha when reading Zechariah 6. The Command to Crown Joshua "Behold, the Man whose name is the BRANCH! 14 "Now the elaborate crown shall be for a memorial in the temple of the Lord [fn1] for Helem, Tobijah, Jedaiah, and Hen the son of Zephaniah. 15 Even those from afar shall come and build the temple of the Lord. Then you shall know that the Lord of hosts has sent Me to you. And this shall come to pass if you diligently obey the voice of the Lord your God." The pronunciation has variants Variant spellings for this word: יהושוע (Strongs and Gesenius) יהושע (Strongs and Gesenius) Cindy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Shalom, angeL |
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angeL217 Posts: 352 |
this is another response. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Matt. 21:4-11: Matt. 21:15-16: 5614 – hōsanna of Hebrew origin H3467 and H4994 interjection Pretty vague, eh? 3467 – yasha 4994 – na’
3087 - Yĕhowtsadaq Strong's 3068 - YHWH Strong's 6663 - tsadaq
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Shalom, angeL |
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RDW Posts: 486 |
I'm always interested in studies of the Names. But let's not get dogmatic about it. (Not inferring that you or anyone else was) After all, we're not even considering that we're using English to do this, not Hebrew. And no one really knows for sure how these names were pronounced originally. All we can do is get as close as we can. I think the important part is to understand what the Names mean and to be as close to the correct pronunciations as we can. One passage that continues to intrigue me is this one. Why doesn't it use the Messiah's name here? Joe 2:32 “And it shall be that everyone who calls on the Name of יהוה shall be delivered. For on Mount Tsiyon and in Yerushalayim there shall be an escape as יהוה has said, and among the survivors whom יהוה calls. Act 2:21 ‘And it shall be that everyone who calls on the Name of יהוה shall be saved. Rom 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the Name of יהוה shall be saved.” |
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angeL217 Posts: 352 |
Thanks for responding, RDW. I don't think the people at the other forum were trying to be "dogmatic," they just wanted to share their understanding of the pronunciation of the Name of our Messiah. They did put a link in to the study tom wrote, so as to be able to compare them. They are not trying to hide anyones studies that are different then their own. They would never condemn anyone for pronouncing the Names differently then the way they do. And I know this because they are my Torah Family. Shalom, angeL |
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Missy Posts: 2643 |
The study is interesting but I think EliYah's makes more sense....given I personally believe Yehoshua is more accurate modernly speaking. And I use Yeshua anyway so neither study gives me any issue. I say.. "suit" yourself...we ALL could be wrong. I didn't get the whole rolleyes thing after "The Scroll of EliYah" if all they really want is for people to consider... why slight EliYah's and say their understanding is "under fire" ? Under fire by whom ? It's a study for pete's sake.. either agree or disagree. But I will say that isn't the first time I have seen that....so go figure. Anyway, I think Watchman555 or his wife brought up the name issue here before a long time ago.. cause I seem to remember the whole issue with the "shua" ending. I think I read a similar study before a while back on their website when they used to post here.. it's from Watchman555 and his wife's website... They converted to the "Lunar" Sabbath thing by now I suppose since I recall something about them going for it by the first of the year and not posting here anymore.... and a lot the old people from this website that believe in lunar sabbaths had already went to their website since that can obviously be discussed freely there. But it might be an interesting discussion to get into if they could post here..but oh well ..they can't so it's moot as far as I know... Honestly though...The reality is if you don't have some sort of background in Hebraic studies or paleo-Hebrew..it's moot cause it's not like you are gonna really convince anyone that has their mind set.. My belief is just use whatever you want to the best of your ability that you have studied out and stop making contentions about what others have made a study on concerning it.. Cause no one speaks the pure tongue of Elohim anyway...so why have an issue with what other people use. If you don't like that way.. then use what you think is better or more accurate. And leave it at that.. [This message has been edited by Missy (edited 04-27-2008).] |
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Bereshiyt Posts: 22 |
Shalom, Reading the post on the other forum demonstrates, sadly, how "narrow" these arguements are. They frequently demonstrate no interest in understanding Biblical (Classical) Hebrew and philological issues. Example, the author says:
quote: But Ezekiel 34:22 does not read YASHA but instead reads in Hebrew as wehosha`ti (Vav-He'-Vav-Shin-`Ayin-Tav-Yod). Yes, the root is yasha` but it isn't how it is pronounced as it is inflected (in this case vav consecutive + the hifil perfect 1ms of yasha`). Again:
quote: The Hebrew reads wayyosha` (Vav-Yod-Vav-Shin-`Ayin; vav consecutive + hifil imperfect 3ms) and not YASHA. To cut to the chase, the arugement for Yahusha fails on a number of accounts above and beyond the "Strong's Concordance Mentality." 1. The MT is pointed as Yehoshua`. On what grounds are we questioning the "u" vowel? 2. The plene spelling of Yehoshua` is Yod-He'-Vav-Shin-Vav-`Ayin (Deu. 3:32; Judg. 2:7) which clearly indicates the ending is "shua" and not "sha." 3. The short form Yeshua` (see Ezra and Nehemiah for example) support the MT points. 4. The Greek Lxx has Iesou[s] as far back as the 2nd. century BCE which supports the MT points. 5. The Peshitta has Yeshua` which supports the MT points. 6. The Vulgate has Iosue which supports the MT points. 7. Epigraphic Hebrew does bear the inverted form of Yesha`yahu as Yahuyasha`--not Yeshoshua`. Yehoshua`, I would suggest, is not based on the root yasha` at all but instead yasha` and a number of forms (like shua`) relate back to a biform (biliteral root) of Shin-`Ayin where the hallow and prefixed forms developed in the triliteral system. When Moses changed Joshua's name it appears on the surface that it was only the first letter changed: Yod-He'-Vav-Shin-`Ayin (Joshua) But this isn't "possible" if the root yasha` was retained as you would end up with Yahuyasha`. What I suggest Moses did was swap the root (which the Hebrews were fond of word plays that were less strict etymology and more alliteration; see Noah and Moses for examples) and used the root shua` (Shin-Vav-`Ayin) which has the identical meaning (as do a number of verbs based on the biform Shin-`Ayin). Proponents of the idea that Yehoshua` is directly derived, etymologically, from Yahu + yasha`, will find it a difficult task to grammatically support the pronunciation Yahusha (e.g. where did the yod go??) The Hebrew text, the ancient translations, and grammatical evidence give us no reason to conjecture a form like Yahusha. As for the theophoric vowels, that is difficult. You can take two approaches: you either limit yourself to the evidence of the texts and historical facts or you conjecture any one (of many) forms based on philosophical interpretations of the text. Taking the first route it appears fairly certain that prefixed YHW- in the early Biblical period was Yahu- and the shift to Yeho- was partially the result of the emphasis on the accent as well as the back relationship to Yo- (a historical form well attested in Epigraphic material and the MT). We see the shift to Yo- before the exile, especially in the Israel. The Murashu texts may indicate in some dialects prefixed Yahu- survived into the exile (although Cross argues this should be normalized as Yo-) but ultimately the evidence by the Lxx that Y'ho- and Yo- were firmly ingrained (e.g. Ioram, Ionatan, Ioakim, Iodae, Iosaphat, etc for Yeho- names in the MT; Io would be fairly normalized for the weak shwa Yho-). Limiting ourselves to the development of the language and the textual witnesses to the treatment of theophoric YHWH forms in the 1st century would, to this point in my studies, indicate that Yahu- wasn't a prefixed pronunciation in the 1st century based on the textual witnesses I am aware of. Further, the Hebrew Bible already demonstrates the affinity between Yehoshua` and Yeshua` (e.g. Neg. 8:17 // Num. 13:16; Zech. 6:11 // Ezra 3:2). Yeshua` is the form in the Hebrew Matthews, Peshitta, Lxx, Vulgate, and all the earliest witnesses. Aramaic was the lingua franca of the era and many of Yeshua's words are in Aramaic, not to mention many common terms (maranata) and the Semitic structure & idioms of texts like Acts 1-15. While it is not impossible that the Messiah may have been called the longer form, it appears that the shorter form is the one most witnessed to. The long form is only attested in the hostile Jewish polemic the Toledot Yeshu. The Hebew Bible already offers the bridge between the two forms (even the Joshua of Zech. 6 is called by the inspired prophets as Yeshua`!). Going back to forms like Yahushua requires (a) the assumption that the texts are all wrong with no method or means for alteration and (b) a secondary assumption that the Yahu- vowels were retained in the 1st century (and would have communicated something to people in 2nd Temple Judaism). I wouldn't argue it is impossible but there are 2 assumption, without factual witness, built on eachother to arrive at this position. It is much easier to accept the textual witnesses--and the bridge between the forms the Hebrew Bible establishes--than to dogmatically argue for conjectural forms that may (or may not) be correct. I know Zech. 6 has a lot of sway, but if the book of Ezra can call the same person Yeshua`, would that not validate that the name Yeshua` could fulfill this prophecy as well? Which of course would then dovetail with the majority of textual witnesses concerning the Messiah's earthly name. -- Shalom RDW. You had said:
quote: As classical Christology would suggest, it is because Yeshua, "is the name." To call on Yeshua is to, "call on the name of YHWH" (Acts 2-4) and this forms the basis of much early confession (e.g. Rom. 10:9,13; Phil. 2:9-11). As John the Apostle argues, Yeshua` "revealed" the very name of YHWH to us for ------------------ |
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Yahwehwitnesses Posts: 2247 |
Shalom, Just don't call him late! Blessings to all who Love YHWH and His Word.
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Shlomoh Posts: 1321 |
quote: Awmein and Awmein! The -sha suffix FAILS on so many levels. The -shua suffix wins hands down when we look at ALL the evidence! Shlomoh |
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Missy Posts: 2643 |
Baruch Hashem! WOW Bereshiyt, Your post was AWESOME...very well done..excellent!
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Burning one Posts: 546 |
Shalom Bereshiyt,
it is always nice to hear sound and balanced evidence concerning this topic instead of sincere and well-intentioned ignorance.
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Shlomoh Posts: 1321 |
Shalom Bereshiyt, You should really put up your post on the Yahuah reigns website, so that the facts can be laid out there too. Perhaps why your at it, you can point out that while Yahuwah is possible in Hebrew spelling, Yahuah is not correct gramatically. Sincerely, Shlomoh |
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chuckbaldwin Posts: 2753 |
quote:Since neither spelling is "Hebrew" (both are English transliterations): depending on the intent of the transliterator and how he/she vocalizes it, "Yahuah" & "Yahuwah" (also "Yahwah") may well represent identical sounds, as shown below - 1st col is the Hebrew letter, 2nd is from "Yahuah", 3rd is from "Yahuwah", 4th is from "Yahwah" (1 of my 2 preferences), 5th is the phonetic sound: -1- = 2 = 3 = 4 = -5- As shown, all 3 English variant spellings CAN be pronounced identically, although some who use the 1st 2 variants may have a different phonetic spelling in mind, such as adding an extra H-consonant to the 4 vowels y-h-w-h. (The columns aligned perfectly in the input area, but the final output must've used a variable-size font & got slightly mis-aligned.) ------------- [This message has been edited by chuckbaldwin (edited 04-30-2008).] |
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dabar_olam Posts: 156 |
Some very interesting comments here. If I amy add mine... Deut 3:21 and Judges 2:7 show that there are six letters in the Hebrew, or The LXX renders it IHSOU() with a grammatical ending when called for. In the It is generally believed that the Hebrew translators of the LXX understood In addition, the Hebrew writers of the "New Testament" understood that the New thought. The writer that quotes Zechariah is on the ball! Zechariah Agape in YahwehShua our Sovereign, More here: |
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Bereshiyt Posts: 22 |
Shalom Chuck,
quote: Shlomoh's point was that that the form Yahuah is not correct grammatically. When discussing the Hebrew language grammar (in contrast to syntax) is typically the discussion of morphology. The form Yahuah indicates a vowel cluster, which Hebrew resists and lacks any precedence among III-He' verbs. That is one grammatical issue that would need to be addressed by proponents of this form. In broader terms proponents of -ah endings run into the same general issues as Yahusha proponents do, namely historical witnesses and sound grammatical genesis. If YHWH is derived from a III-He' verb (like HYH / HWH) the "-ah" ending poses some difficulties on a morphological level. III-He' verbs pose some challenges to beginning students due to the significant departures from the Strong paradigm but offer some consolation in terms of their consistency. For example the He' of III-He' roots (which was originally a Yod or, less frequently, a Vav) inflects regularly: Perfect: -ah If YHWH is derived from a III-He' verb the "-ah" ending would indicate it is in the Perfect conjugation. Yet this poses a very significant issue: the Perfect conjugation is the Suffixed conjugation and the only significant prefixes across the stems are the stem prefixes (Nun in the Nifal; He' in the Hiphil & Hophal; He'-Tav in the Hithpa`el) which is regular across the paradigm. The Yod prefix, on the other hand, is regular for all Third Person Masculine forms in all stems of the Imperfect conjugation. The problem being, of course, that the Imperfect conjugation is regularly -eh and not -ah. The presence of the Yod is indicative of the Imperfect conjugation which necessitates the -eh ending. The burden of evidence is upon those who evangelize forms to establish the grammatical genesis and historical veracity of the form. By such I mean: Historical Veracity: Is the form attested to in antiquity? Grammatical Genesis: Can the form be substantiated within the boundaries of normative Hebrew morphology or philology? I believe this should be the standard criteria we judge any and all of the forms people suggest. If we held to such a standard the endless generation of "sacred name" forms would come to a quick--and much less confusing--end.
quote: How would you spell your form in Hebrew? What is the root, stem, and inflection? ------------------ |
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