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Author Topic:   Yahushua vs Yahusha
angeL217

Posts: 352
Registered: Sep 2005

posted 04-27-2008 10:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for angeL217     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I read this study on another forum and thought I would share it with you.
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Shalom Everyone~

Recently there has been a new study where the pronunciation of Yahusha’s Name is under fire. Here is the link to a site written by Tom Martincic, it is called the "Scroll of EliYah" ( http://www.eliyah.com/yahushua.html ) linking to a study where he states emphatically – “However, it is easily proven to be incorrect” and “So the pronunciation "Yahusha" can be proven wrong by simply looking at the scriptures and knowing that in order to ignore the waw (oo sound) after the shin (sh sound), we have to ignore the scriptures which clearly give us those letters as part of the Messiah's name”

This study seems to hinge itself on the fact that Moshe’s successor “Joshua” is the exact same pronunciation as the Messiah’s Name. The study that we will provide will refute this idea proving that the Strong’s is inaccurate concerning the pronunciation of this name and more correctly, should be pronounced Yahusha. If one would maintain Moshe’s successor’s name is Yahoshua, please take this into account – Yahushua was not the deliverer, he was one who was delivered. Remember him and Caleb were the only ones who were delivered of the ones who died in the wilderness, they were allowed to go into the promised land. Anyway, it was neither Moshe nor Yahushua/Yahusha who delivered the children of Yisra’el out of Mitsrayim, it was Yahuah.

Shemoth 14:30:
30 Thus YAHUAH YASHA Yisra’el that day out of the hand of the Mitsrites, and Yisra’el saw the Mitsrites dead on the seashore.

STUDY LINK:
http://yahuahreigns.informe.com/forum/yahushua-versus-yahusha-dt199.html

We hope the readers here would take the time to look at a study concerning the validity of pronouncing our Messiah’s Name as Yahusha. We also have a few Scriptures that prove Yahuah called Himself Yasha.


3467 – YASHA –

1) to save, be saved, be delivered

a) (Niphal)
1) to be liberated, be saved, be delivered
2) to be saved (in battle), be victorious

b) (Hiphil)
1) to save, deliver
2) to save from moral troubles
3) to give victory to

Shemoth 14:30:
30 Thus YAHUAH YASHA Yisra’el that day out of the hand of the Mitsrites, and Yisra’el saw the Mitsrites dead on the seashore.

1 Sam. 14:6:
6 And Yehonathan said to the young man who bore his armor, “Come, and let us go over to the outpost of these uncircumcised. If so be, YAHUAH does work for us. For there is no hindrance for YAHUAH YASHA by many or by few.”

1 Sam. 14:23:
23 Thus YAHUAH YASHA Yisra’el that day, and the battle passed over to Beyth Awen

1 Sam 17:47:
47 and all this assembly know that YAHUAH YASHA not with sword and spear, for the battle belongs to YAHUAH, and He shall give you into our hands.”

2 Sam. 8:6:
6 Then Dawid put watch-posts in Aram of Damascus. And the Arameans became Dawid’s servants, and brought presents. And YAHUAH YASHA Dawid wherever he went.

2 Sam. 8:14:
14 And he put watch-posts in Edom. Throughout all Edom he put watch-posts, and all the Edomites became Dawid’s servants. And YAHUAH YASHA Dawid wherever he went

1 Chron. 11:14:
14 But they took their stand in the midst of that field, and delivered it, and smote the Philistines. Thus YAHUAH YASHA them by a great deliverance.

1 Chron 16:35:
35 And say, “YASHA us, O Elohim of our deliverance; And gather us together, And deliver us from the gentiles, To give thanks to Your set-apart Name, And boast in Your praise.”

1 Chron. 18:6:
6 and Dawid stationed men in Aram of Damascus, and the Arameans became Dawid’s servants, and brought presents. And YAHUAH YASHA Dawid wherever he went.

2 Chron. 32:22:
22 Thus YAHUAH YASHA Hizqiyahu and the inhabitants of Yerushalayim from the hand of Sancherib the sovereign of Ashshur, and from the hand of all others, and guided them on every side.

Psalms 3:7:
7 Arise, O YAHUAH YASHA me, O my Elohim! Because You have smitten all my enemies on the cheek; You have broken the teeth of the wrong.

Psalms 20:6:
6 Now I know that YAHUAH YASHA His Anointed; He answers him from His set-apart heavens With the saving might of His right hand.

Psalms 55:16:
16 I, I call upon Elohim, And YAHUAH YASHA me.

Psalms 106:21:
21 They forgot El their YASHA, The Doer of great deeds in Mitsrayim,

Prov. 20:22:
22 Do not say, “I repay evil.” Wait for YAHUAH, and He YASHA you.

YeshaYahu 33:22:
22 for YAHUAH is our Judge, YAHUAH is our Lawgiver, YAHUAH is our Sovereign, He YASHA us –

YeshaYahu 38:20:
20 YAHUAH YASHA me! And let us sing my songs with stringed instruments all the days of our life in the house of Yahuah.

YeshaYahu 43:3:
3 “For I am YAHUAH your Elohim, the Set-apart One of Yisra’el, your YASHA; I gave Mitsrayim for your ransom, Kush and Seba in your place.

YeshaYahu 43:11-12:
11 “I, I am YAHUAH, and besides Me there is no YASHA. 12 “I, I have declared and YASHA, and made known, and there was no foreign mighty one among you. And you are My witnesses,” declares YAHUAH, “that I am El.

YeshaYahu 45:15:
15 Truly You are El, who hide Yourself, O Elohim of Yisra’el, YASHA!

YeshaYahu 45:21:
21 “Declare and bring near, let them even take counsel together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has declared it from that time? Is it not I, YAHUAH? And there is no mighty one besides Me, a righteous El and a YASHA
, there is none besides Me.

YeshaYahu 49:26:
26 “And I shall feed those who oppress you with their own flesh, and let them drink their own blood as sweet wine. All flesh shall know that I, YAHUAH, am your YASHA, and your Redeemer, the Elohim of Ya’aqob.”

YeshaYahu 60:16:
16 “And you shall drink dry the milk of the gentiles, and shall milk the breast of sovereigns. And you shall know that I, YAHUAH, your YASHA and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya’aqob.

YirmeYahu 30:11:

11 ‘For I am with you,’ declares YAHUAH, ‘YASHA
you. Though I make a complete end of all gentiles where I have scattered you, yet I do not make a complete end of you. But I shall reprove you in judgment, and by no means leave you unpunished.’

YirmeYahu 31:7:
7 For thus said YAHUAH, “Sing with gladness for Ya’aqob, and shout among the chief of the nations. Cry out, give praise, and say, ‘O YAHUAH, YASHA Your people, the remnant of Yisra’el!’

YirmeYahu 33:16:
16 ‘In those days Yehudah shall be YASHA, and Yerushalayim dwell in safety. And this is that which shall be proclaimed to her: ‘YAHUAH our Righteousness.’

Yez 34:22:
22 therefore I YASHA My flock, and let them no longer be a prey. And I shall judge between sheep and sheep.

Zech. 9:16:
16 And YAHUAH their Elohim shall YASHA them in that day, as the flock of His people, for the stones of a diadem, sparkling over His land.

Zech. 12:7:
7 “And YAHUAH shall YASHA the tents of Yehudah first, so that the comeliness of the house of Dawid and the comeliness of the inhabitants of Yerushalayim would not become greater than that of Yehudah.

It becomes very clear that to prove that the Name Yahusha is not a valid pronunciation of the Name these Scriptures provided must be taken into account.
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Shalom,

angeL

[This message has been edited by angeL217 (edited 04-27-2008).]

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angeL217

Posts: 352
Registered: Sep 2005

posted 04-27-2008 10:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for angeL217     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This was a response to the original post on the other forum.

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I was convicted by the Name Yahusha when reading Zechariah 6.

The Command to Crown Joshua
9 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: 10 "Receive the gift from the captives--from Heldai, Tobijah, and Jedaiah, who have come from Babylon--and go the same day and enter the house of Josiah the son of Zephaniah. 11 Take the silver and gold, make an elaborate crown, and set it on the head of Joshua the son of Jehozadak, the high priest. 12 Then speak to him, saying, 'Thus says the Lord of hosts, saying:

"Behold, the Man whose name is the BRANCH!
From His place He shall branch out,
And He shall build the temple of the Lord;
13 Yes, He shall build the temple of the Lord.
He shall bear the glory,
And shall sit and rule on His throne;
So He shall be a priest on His throne,
And the counsel of peace shall be between them both."'

14 "Now the elaborate crown shall be for a memorial in the temple of the Lord [fn1] for Helem, Tobijah, Jedaiah, and Hen the son of Zephaniah. 15 Even those from afar shall come and build the temple of the Lord. Then you shall know that the Lord of hosts has sent Me to you. And this shall come to pass if you diligently obey the voice of the Lord your God."

The pronunciation has variants

Variant spellings for this word: יהושוע (Strongs and Gesenius) יהושע (Strongs and Gesenius)

Cindy

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Shalom,

angeL
(that's with a small "a" and a capital "L")

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angeL217

Posts: 352
Registered: Sep 2005

posted 04-27-2008 10:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for angeL217     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
this is another response.

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Matt. 21:4-11:
4 And all this took place that it might be filled what was spoken by the prophet, saying, 5 “Say to the daughter of Tsiyon, ‘See, your Sovereign is coming to you, meek, and sitting on a donkey, even a colt, the foal of a donkey.’ ” 6 And the taught ones went, and having done as Yahusha ordered them, 7 they brought the donkey and the colt, and laid their garments on them, and He sat on them. 8 And most of the crowd spread their garments on the way, while others cut down branches from the trees and spread them on the way. 9 And the crowds who went before and those who followed cried out, saying, “Hoshia-na (5614) to the Son of Dawid! Blessed is He who is coming in the Name of Yahuah! Hoshia-na in the highest!” 10 And as He entered into Yerushalayim, all the city was stirred, saying, “Who is this?” 11 And the crowds said, “This is Yahusha, the prophet from Natsareth of Galil.”

Matt. 21:15-16:
15 But when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonders which He did, and the children crying out in the Set-apart Place and saying, “Hoshia-na to the Son of Dawid!” they were greatly displeased, 16 and said to Him, “Do You hear what these say?” And Yahusha said to them, “Yea, have you never read, ‘Out of the mouth of babes and nurslings You have perfected praise’?”

5614 – hōsanna

of Hebrew origin H3467 and H4994

interjection
1) hosanna
2) be propitious

Pretty vague, eh?

3467 – yasha
1) to save, be saved, be delivered
a) (Niphal)
1) to be liberated, be saved, be delivered
2) to be saved (in battle), be victorious
b) (Hiphil)
1) to save, deliver
2) to save from moral troubles
3) to give victory to

4994 – na’
1) I (we) pray, now, please
a) used in entreaty or exhortation


Hosanna? Hoshia-na? Yasha-na!!!

3087 - Yĕhowtsadaq
from H3068 and H6663
Jehozadak or Josedech = "Yahuah is righteous"

Strong's 3068 - YHWH
Yahuah = "the existing One"
1) the proper name of the one true Elohim.

Strong's 6663 - tsadaq
1) to be just, be righteous
a) (Qal)
1) to have a just cause, be in the right
2) to be justified
3) to be just (of God)
4) to be just, be righteous (in conduct and character)
b) (Niphal) to be put or made right, be justified
c) (Piel) justify, make to appear righteous, make someone righteous
d) (Hiphil)
1) to do or bring justice (in administering law)
2) to declare righteous, justify
3) to justify, vindicate the cause of, save
4) to make righteous, turn to righteousness
e) (Hithpael) to justify oneself


YirmeYahu 23:5-6:
5 “See, the days are coming,” declares Yahuah, “when I shall raise for Dawid a Branch of righteousness (6662-adjective from 6663), and a Sovereign shall reign and act wisely, and shall do right-ruling and righteousness(6666 feminine noun from 6663) in the earth. 6 “In His days Yehudah shall be saved(3467-yasha), and Yisra’el dwell safely. And this is His Name whereby He shall be called: ‘Yahuah our Righteousness (6664-masculine noun of the root 6663).

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Shalom,

angeL

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RDW

Posts: 486
Registered: Feb 2006

posted 04-27-2008 10:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for RDW     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm always interested in studies of the Names. But let's not get dogmatic about it. (Not inferring that you or anyone else was) After all, we're not even considering that we're using English to do this, not Hebrew. And no one really knows for sure how these names were pronounced originally. All we can do is get as close as we can. I think the important part is to understand what the Names mean and to be as close to the correct pronunciations as we can.

One passage that continues to intrigue me is this one. Why doesn't it use the Messiah's name here?

Joe 2:32 “And it shall be that everyone who calls on the Name of יהוה shall be delivered. For on Mount Tsiyon and in Yerushalayim there shall be an escape as יהוה has said, and among the survivors whom יהוה calls.

Act 2:21 ‘And it shall be that everyone who calls on the Name of יהוה shall be saved.

Rom 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the Name of יהוה shall be saved.”


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angeL217

Posts: 352
Registered: Sep 2005

posted 04-27-2008 11:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for angeL217     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for responding, RDW.

I don't think the people at the other forum were trying to be "dogmatic," they just wanted to share their understanding of the pronunciation of the Name of our Messiah. They did put a link in to the study tom wrote, so as to be able to compare them. They are not trying to hide anyones studies that are different then their own. They would never condemn anyone for pronouncing the Names differently then the way they do.

And I know this because they are my Torah Family.

Shalom,

angeL

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Missy

Posts: 2643
Registered: Aug 2005

posted 04-27-2008 02:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Missy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The study is interesting but I think EliYah's makes more sense....given I personally believe Yehoshua is more accurate modernly speaking. And I use Yeshua anyway so neither study gives me any issue. I say.. "suit" yourself...we ALL could be wrong.

I didn't get the whole rolleyes thing after "The Scroll of EliYah" if all they really want is for people to consider... why slight EliYah's and say their understanding is "under fire" ? Under fire by whom ? It's a study for pete's sake.. either agree or disagree. But I will say that isn't the first time I have seen that....so go figure.

Anyway,

I think Watchman555 or his wife brought up the name issue here before a long time ago.. cause I seem to remember the whole issue with the "shua" ending.

I think I read a similar study before a while back on their website when they used to post here.. it's from Watchman555 and his wife's website... They converted to the "Lunar" Sabbath thing by now I suppose since I recall something about them going for it by the first of the year and not posting here anymore.... and a lot the old people from this website that believe in lunar sabbaths had already went to their website since that can obviously be discussed freely there.

But it might be an interesting discussion to get into if they could post here..but oh well ..they can't so it's moot as far as I know...

Honestly though...The reality is if you don't have some sort of background in Hebraic studies or paleo-Hebrew..it's moot cause it's not like you are gonna really convince anyone that has their mind set.. My belief is just use whatever you want to the best of your ability that you have studied out and stop making contentions about what others have made a study on concerning it.. Cause no one speaks the pure tongue of Elohim anyway...so why have an issue with what other people use. If you don't like that way.. then use what you think is better or more accurate. And leave it at that..

[This message has been edited by Missy (edited 04-27-2008).]

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Bereshiyt

Posts: 22
Registered: Mar 2008

posted 04-27-2008 05:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bereshiyt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Shalom,

Reading the post on the other forum demonstrates, sadly, how "narrow" these arguements are. They frequently demonstrate no interest in understanding Biblical (Classical) Hebrew and philological issues.

Example, the author says:

quote:
Yez 34:22:
22 therefore I YASHA My flock, and let them no longer be a prey. And I shall judge between sheep and sheep.

But Ezekiel 34:22 does not read YASHA but instead reads in Hebrew as wehosha`ti (Vav-He'-Vav-Shin-`Ayin-Tav-Yod). Yes, the root is yasha` but it isn't how it is pronounced as it is inflected (in this case vav consecutive + the hifil perfect 1ms of yasha`).

Again:

quote:
Shemoth 14:30:
30 Thus YAHUAH YASHA Yisra’el that day out of the hand of the Mitsrites, and Yisra’el saw the Mitsrites dead on the seashore.

The Hebrew reads wayyosha` (Vav-Yod-Vav-Shin-`Ayin; vav consecutive + hifil imperfect 3ms) and not YASHA.

To cut to the chase, the arugement for Yahusha fails on a number of accounts above and beyond the "Strong's Concordance Mentality."

1. The MT is pointed as Yehoshua`. On what grounds are we questioning the "u" vowel?

2. The plene spelling of Yehoshua` is Yod-He'-Vav-Shin-Vav-`Ayin (Deu. 3:32; Judg. 2:7) which clearly indicates the ending is "shua" and not "sha."

3. The short form Yeshua` (see Ezra and Nehemiah for example) support the MT points.

4. The Greek Lxx has Iesou[s] as far back as the 2nd. century BCE which supports the MT points.

5. The Peshitta has Yeshua` which supports the MT points.

6. The Vulgate has Iosue which supports the MT points.

7. Epigraphic Hebrew does bear the inverted form of Yesha`yahu as Yahuyasha`--not Yeshoshua`. Yehoshua`, I would suggest, is not based on the root yasha` at all but instead yasha` and a number of forms (like shua`) relate back to a biform (biliteral root) of Shin-`Ayin where the hallow and prefixed forms developed in the triliteral system. When Moses changed Joshua's name it appears on the surface that it was only the first letter changed:

Yod-He'-Vav-Shin-`Ayin (Joshua)
He'-Vav-Shin-`Ayin (Hoshea; Num. 13:16)

But this isn't "possible" if the root yasha` was retained as you would end up with Yahuyasha`. What I suggest Moses did was swap the root (which the Hebrews were fond of word plays that were less strict etymology and more alliteration; see Noah and Moses for examples) and used the root shua` (Shin-Vav-`Ayin) which has the identical meaning (as do a number of verbs based on the biform Shin-`Ayin).

Proponents of the idea that Yehoshua` is directly derived, etymologically, from Yahu + yasha`, will find it a difficult task to grammatically support the pronunciation Yahusha (e.g. where did the yod go??)

The Hebrew text, the ancient translations, and grammatical evidence give us no reason to conjecture a form like Yahusha.

As for the theophoric vowels, that is difficult. You can take two approaches: you either limit yourself to the evidence of the texts and historical facts or you conjecture any one (of many) forms based on philosophical interpretations of the text.

Taking the first route it appears fairly certain that prefixed YHW- in the early Biblical period was Yahu- and the shift to Yeho- was partially the result of the emphasis on the accent as well as the back relationship to Yo- (a historical form well attested in Epigraphic material and the MT). We see the shift to Yo- before the exile, especially in the Israel. The Murashu texts may indicate in some dialects prefixed Yahu- survived into the exile (although Cross argues this should be normalized as Yo-) but ultimately the evidence by the Lxx that Y'ho- and Yo- were firmly ingrained (e.g. Ioram, Ionatan, Ioakim, Iodae, Iosaphat, etc for Yeho- names in the MT; Io would be fairly normalized for the weak shwa Yho-). Limiting ourselves to the development of the language and the textual witnesses to the treatment of theophoric YHWH forms in the 1st century would, to this point in my studies, indicate that Yahu- wasn't a prefixed pronunciation in the 1st century based on the textual witnesses I am aware of.

Further, the Hebrew Bible already demonstrates the affinity between Yehoshua` and Yeshua` (e.g. Neg. 8:17 // Num. 13:16; Zech. 6:11 // Ezra 3:2). Yeshua` is the form in the Hebrew Matthews, Peshitta, Lxx, Vulgate, and all the earliest witnesses. Aramaic was the lingua franca of the era and many of Yeshua's words are in Aramaic, not to mention many common terms (maranata) and the Semitic structure & idioms of texts like Acts 1-15. While it is not impossible that the Messiah may have been called the longer form, it appears that the shorter form is the one most witnessed to. The long form is only attested in the hostile Jewish polemic the Toledot Yeshu.

The Hebew Bible already offers the bridge between the two forms (even the Joshua of Zech. 6 is called by the inspired prophets as Yeshua`!). Going back to forms like Yahushua requires (a) the assumption that the texts are all wrong with no method or means for alteration and (b) a secondary assumption that the Yahu- vowels were retained in the 1st century (and would have communicated something to people in 2nd Temple Judaism). I wouldn't argue it is impossible but there are 2 assumption, without factual witness, built on eachother to arrive at this position. It is much easier to accept the textual witnesses--and the bridge between the forms the Hebrew Bible establishes--than to dogmatically argue for conjectural forms that may (or may not) be correct.

I know Zech. 6 has a lot of sway, but if the book of Ezra can call the same person Yeshua`, would that not validate that the name Yeshua` could fulfill this prophecy as well? Which of course would then dovetail with the majority of textual witnesses concerning the Messiah's earthly name.

--

Shalom RDW. You had said:

quote:
"One passage that continues to intrigue me is this one. Why doesn't it use the Messiah's name here?"

As classical Christology would suggest, it is because Yeshua, "is the name." To call on Yeshua is to, "call on the name of YHWH" (Acts 2-4) and this forms the basis of much early confession (e.g. Rom. 10:9,13; Phil. 2:9-11). As John the Apostle argues, Yeshua` "revealed" the very name of YHWH to us for

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Shalom -- Bereshiyt (at) gmail (dot) com

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Yahwehwitnesses

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posted 04-27-2008 06:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Yahwehwitnesses     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Shalom,

Just don't call him late!

Blessings to all who Love YHWH and His Word.


Yohanan

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Shlomoh

Posts: 1321
Registered: Feb 2000

posted 04-27-2008 06:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Shlomoh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bereshiyt:

To cut to the chase, the arugement for Yahusha fails on a number of accounts above and beyond the "Strong's Concordance Mentality."

1. The MT is pointed as Yehoshua`. On what grounds are we questioning the "u" vowel?

2. The plene spelling of Yehoshua` is Yod-He'-Vav-Shin-Vav-`Ayin (Deu. 3:32; Judg. 2:7) which clearly indicates the ending is "shua" and not "sha."

3. The short form Yeshua` (see Ezra and Nehemiah for example) support the MT points.

4. The Greek Lxx has Iesou[s] as far back as the 2nd. century BCE which supports the MT points.

5. The Peshitta has Yeshua` which supports the MT points.

6. The Vulgate has Iosue which supports the MT points.


Awmein and Awmein! The -sha suffix FAILS on so many levels. The -shua suffix wins hands down when we look at ALL the evidence!

Shlomoh

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Missy

Posts: 2643
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posted 04-27-2008 07:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Missy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Baruch Hashem!

WOW Bereshiyt,

Your post was AWESOME...very well done..excellent!


Missy

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Burning one

Posts: 546
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posted 04-27-2008 11:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Burning one     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Shalom Bereshiyt,


great post!

it is always nice to hear sound and balanced evidence concerning this topic instead of sincere and well-intentioned ignorance.


Chayim b'Moshiach (Life in Messiah)

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Shlomoh

Posts: 1321
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posted 04-30-2008 03:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Shlomoh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Shalom Bereshiyt,

You should really put up your post on the Yahuah reigns website, so that the facts can be laid out there too. Perhaps why your at it, you can point out that while Yahuwah is possible in Hebrew spelling, Yahuah is not correct gramatically.

Sincerely,

Shlomoh

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chuckbaldwin

Posts: 2753
Registered: Jan 2004

posted 04-30-2008 09:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chuckbaldwin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shlomoh:

while Yahuwah is possible in Hebrew spelling, Yahuah is not correct gramatically.


Since neither spelling is "Hebrew" (both are English transliterations): depending on the intent of the transliterator and how he/she vocalizes it, "Yahuah" & "Yahuwah" (also "Yahwah") may well represent identical sounds, as shown below -
1st col is the Hebrew letter,
2nd is from "Yahuah",
3rd is from "Yahuwah",
4th is from "Yahwah" (1 of my 2 preferences),
5th is the phonetic sound:

-1- = 2 = 3 = 4 = -5-
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yod = Y = Y = Y = 'ee' (quickly spoken so it "acts" like a consonant)
hey =ah =ah =ah = 'ah' (so far, we have "ee-AH" or "Yah-"
waw = u =uw = w = 'oo' (see note by 'yod')
hey =ah =ah =ah = 'ah' (resulting in 'ee-AH-oo-AH' or 'YAH-wah').

As shown, all 3 English variant spellings CAN be pronounced identically, although some who use the 1st 2 variants may have a different phonetic spelling in mind, such as adding an extra H-consonant to the 4 vowels y-h-w-h.

(The columns aligned perfectly in the input area, but the final output must've used a variable-size font & got slightly mis-aligned.)

-------------
Chuck Baldwin

[This message has been edited by chuckbaldwin (edited 04-30-2008).]

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dabar_olam

Posts: 156
Registered: Feb 2006

posted 05-01-2008 08:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for dabar_olam     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Some very interesting comments here.

If I amy add mine...

Deut 3:21 and Judges 2:7 show that there are six letters in the Hebrew, or
five letters and a replacement mark between the sheen and the ayin. That
mark is critical as a waw replacement and is carried over into the Greek.

The LXX renders it IHSOU() with a grammatical ending when called for. In the
above two verses, both are rendered the same - IHSOU().

It is generally believed that the Hebrew translators of the LXX understood
how to pronounce Hebrew names, and would render them in Greek as closely as
they could to the Hebrew. Therefore "IH" certainly equates to YH, or Yah. The
"S" would equate to the Hebrew Sheen, but the use of "OU" is a single
vocalization called a 'dipthong' to represent the "OO/U" sound of the Hebrew
waw. So the Hebrew translators represented the Hebrew YHWSWA as IHSOU. Note
that the Greek omits the first waw or "U" vocalization, but retains the second.
this would give us Yah-shu-(a). If the first waw were pronounced, where is the
representation in Greek? Why don't we ever find IHOUSOU in any manuscripts?
The answer is clear. IHSOU is written as it is because it is the first waw is
silent and the second is articulated. That is Yah'shua.

In addition, the Hebrew writers of the "New Testament" understood that the
Greek transliteration of Yah'shua was IHSOU(), because the name of the son of
Nun was rendered IHSOU(), the same as Messiah's, in two places.

New thought. The writer that quotes Zechariah is on the ball! Zechariah
prophesies that the human name of the King/Priest to come is Yah'shua. Moreover,
the name Yah'shua is used 5 times in Zech 3, showing His work of Grace, and 1
time in chapter 6, showing the unity of being King/Priest. 5 + 1 = 6...the
number of man, therefore a man's name.

Agape in YahwehShua our Sovereign,
George

More here:
Spell it in the Greek: http://kahalyahweh.net/Articles/Gk-spelling.htm
Origin of the name Jesus: http://kahalyahweh.net/Articles/Origin-Jesus.htm
Prophecy Speaks:Why His Name must be Yah'shua: http://kahalyahweh.net/Articles/ProphecySpeaks.htm
Name of Inheritance: http://kahalyahweh.net/Articles/NameOfInheritance.htm

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Bereshiyt

Posts: 22
Registered: Mar 2008

posted 05-03-2008 04:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bereshiyt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Shalom Chuck,

quote:
Since neither spelling is "Hebrew" (both are English transliterations): depending on the intent of the transliterator and how he/she vocalizes it, "Yahuah" & "Yahuwah" (also "Yahwah") may well represent identical sounds

Shlomoh's point was that that the form Yahuah is not correct grammatically.

When discussing the Hebrew language grammar (in contrast to syntax) is typically the discussion of morphology. The form Yahuah indicates a vowel cluster, which Hebrew resists and lacks any precedence among III-He' verbs. That is one grammatical issue that would need to be addressed by proponents of this form.

In broader terms proponents of -ah endings run into the same general issues as Yahusha proponents do, namely historical witnesses and sound grammatical genesis.

If YHWH is derived from a III-He' verb (like HYH / HWH) the "-ah" ending poses some difficulties on a morphological level. III-He' verbs pose some challenges to beginning students due to the significant departures from the Strong paradigm but offer some consolation in terms of their consistency. For example the He' of III-He' roots (which was originally a Yod or, less frequently, a Vav) inflects regularly:

Perfect: -ah
Imperfect: -eh
Imperative: -êh
Infinitive Construct: -ot
Participle: -eh

If YHWH is derived from a III-He' verb the "-ah" ending would indicate it is in the Perfect conjugation. Yet this poses a very significant issue: the Perfect conjugation is the Suffixed conjugation and the only significant prefixes across the stems are the stem prefixes (Nun in the Nifal; He' in the Hiphil & Hophal; He'-Tav in the Hithpa`el) which is regular across the paradigm.

The Yod prefix, on the other hand, is regular for all Third Person Masculine forms in all stems of the Imperfect conjugation. The problem being, of course, that the Imperfect conjugation is regularly -eh and not -ah. The presence of the Yod is indicative of the Imperfect conjugation which necessitates the -eh ending.

The burden of evidence is upon those who evangelize forms to establish the grammatical genesis and historical veracity of the form. By such I mean:

Historical Veracity: Is the form attested to in antiquity?

Grammatical Genesis: Can the form be substantiated within the boundaries of normative Hebrew morphology or philology?

I believe this should be the standard criteria we judge any and all of the forms people suggest. If we held to such a standard the endless generation of "sacred name" forms would come to a quick--and much less confusing--end.

quote:
Since neither spelling is "Hebrew"

How would you spell your form in Hebrew? What is the root, stem, and inflection?

------------------
Shalom -- Bereshiyt (at) gmail (dot) com

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