Halleluyah, praise His name...

I would like to share something which I learnt last night, that may interest some of you.

It is a bit of a detective story, and is a bit lenghthy... make yourself a cuppa and sit back and enjoy this post

It might be a bit difficult to follow, but again, maybe some will “ah-ha” and get my drift

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What happened last night,

I have been pondering about why so many Messianic Jews I have read about (their websites) seem to say that Yahushua is YHWH (or “God”) in the flesh, or even say that He is equal to the Father (the trinity doctrine)... and not only the Messianic Jews, but even some in this forum think so too.

It is something that puzzles me, because we hear from Yahushua Himself saying that His Father is greater than Him, that Yahushua will sit on the right hand of His Father...

I know that some will say that Yahushua said “My Father and I are One” and say that it means Yahushua is the Father... but to this I reply, Yahushua also said we are One with Him and the Father... yet this doesn’t make us Yahushua or the Father, or equal to them... rather it means, One in mind, or agreement.

Well, last night, I pondered about it all, about Yahushua being the Father and how it doesn’t make sense, and thought about Isaiah 9:5/6 where it says:

(please excuse the word “God” as it is taken from the KJV)

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

My big puzzle is that Isaiah above seems to say that the child, whom I take to mean Yahushua, is called the Mighty God, and the everlasting Father........

Yet, it doesn’t make sense, with Yahushua always affirming that the Father is greater than Him, and never saying that He is the Father........

Something within me quietly prompted me to go and read the Stone Edition’s Tanach that I have next to my bed (which has Hebrew on one side and English translation on other side), and I shook off the prompting abruptly... I was puzzled about my being so abrupt in shaking off this prompting and it occured to me that it may be the Spirit that is telling me to go and read the Tanach. Sometimes the Spirit is so quiet and gentle that it is easy for my nature to refuse and turn my back on Him... when I realised this, I struggled within myself and got myself to obey the quiet prompting and open the Tanach.

I took this opportunity to read the Isaiah 9:5/6 part, (which I shared above, about the son, child, being called Eternal Father), wanting to know what the Jews’ translation of it in English was, and the actual Hebrew wordings are.

What I found in there was interesting!

In the Tanach, the Hebrew part says:

ëéÎéìã éìãÎìðå áï ðúïÎìðå åúäé äîùÒøä òìÎùÑëîå åé÷øà ùÑîå ôìà éåòõ àì âáåø àáéòã ùÒøÎùÑìåíÓ

(in case your computer doesn't support hebrew fonts, I've inserted a picture in here for you to see what it looks like - the Tanach has vowel points in the hebrew letters)

The english translation part on the opposite page says:

For a child has been born to us, a son has been given to us, and the dominion will rest on his shoulder; the Wondrous Adviser, Mighty God, Eternal Father, called his name Sar-shalom [Prince of Peace];

Wow, this translation is different to KJV above, it's saying that the Eternal Father calling the son, "Prince of Peace", instead of the son being called "the Eternal Father" and "the Prince of Peace" and I wondered why...

Then I read in the commentary section beneath in the Tanach, which is on this part in Isaiah, and this is the eye-opener:

This wondrous salvation took place in the days of the child of Ahaz, the righteous King Hezekiah, whom God – the Wondrous Adviser, Mighty God, Eternal Father – called “Prince of Peace.”

Please note, I am not focusing on the part about the child being of Ahaz, the righteous King Hezekiah – because I am aware that YHWH has closed the Jews’ eyes regarding Yahushua as Messiah for the time being... I am instead drawn to how Hebrew is written and translated in the commentary – the above Jewish commentary reminded me about the time when I was learning Hebrew using Jeff Benner’s “Learn to Read Biblical Hebrew”...

In Jeff Benner’s book, he shows how Hebrew grammar is different to English. One example that stuck with me was this:

English: Moses gave to us the Torah.

Hebrew: ðúï îùä ìðå àú äúåøä

(picture of Hebrew is inserted beneath in case your computer doesn't support Hebrew)

Hebrew transliteration: natan mosheh lanu es hatorah

Hebrew’s grammar is... drumroll...

“Gave Moses to-us the-Torah”.

In case you're struggling to understand the grammar (as I did when I first started to learn Hebrew, another example is, say,

English: Anna called Susan, “Queen”

In Hebrew, it’ll be:

Called Anna Susan Queen

(Hebrew doesn’t have comma or quotation marks)

So, with this understanding of Hebrew grammar, going back to read Hebrew in Isaiah 9:5/6,

The Hebrew transliteration (saying aloud in Hebrew) is:

Ki-yeled yulad-lanu ben nitan-lanu vat’hi hamishra al-shichmo vayikra sh’mo pele yoetz el gibor avi-ad sar-shalom

And translating (keeping Hebrew grammar intact)...

Ki-yeled (for-child) yulad-lanu (born to-us) ben (son) nitan-lanu (given to-us) vat’hi (and rest) hamishra (the government) al-shichmo (on-his shoulder) vayikra (and-called) sh’mo (his-name) pele (wondrous) yoetz (adviser) el gibor (great el) avi-ad (father forever) sar-shalom (prince-of peace)

What it looks like (no commas or quotation marks, as it is in Hebrew)

For child born to us son given to us and rest the government on his shoulder and called his name wondrous adviser great el father forever prince of peace

With commas and quotations, it could look like this:

For a child is born to us, a son is given to us, and the government rest on his shoulder, and called his name, Wondrous, Adviser, Great El, Father Forever, “Prince of Peace”.

i.e. the above Hebrew grammar,

Called his name, the Father ---> “Prince of Peace”

Means, in English,

The Father called his (the son’s) name, “Prince of Peace”

Using similar example,

Gave Moses ---> to us the Torah

Means in English,

Moses gave to us the Torah.

Only, in Isaiah 9:5, instead of

Hebrew: Called his (the son’s) name, the Father ---> “Prince of Peace”

English: The Father called his (the son’s) name, “Prince of Peace”

Isaiah mentions the Fathers’ other names as well,

The Wondrous Adviser, Mighty El, and Eternal Father, called his (son’s) name, “Prince of Peace”

original Hebrew:
For child born to us son given to us and rest the government on his shoulder and called his name wondrous adviser great el father forever prince of peace

and how it should probably have been translated in English, keeping the hebrew meaning intact:

For a child born to us, a son given to us and the government rest on his shoulder and, the wondrous adviser, the great el, father forever, called his (the son's) name, --> "prince of peace"

Just like what the Jewish translation and commentary on the Hebrew shared.

That’s it – what I wanted to share with you… it was a bit hard explaining, I hope you get my drift… it all made so much sense.

To me, the Hebrew grammar I've learnt (albeit slowly and a bit at a time) seemed to confirm that in Isaiah, the KJV is an English mistranslation as English translators doesn’t get the drift of Hebrew grammar.

Your thoughts?

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Blessed be the Name of YHWH

quote:

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bluesun: The english translation part on the opposite page says:

For a child has been born to us, a son has been given to us, and the dominion will rest on his shoulder; the Wondrous Adviser, Mighty God, Eternal Father, called his name Sar-shalom [Prince of Peace];

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Interesting and well laid out post.

Whenever discussing Isa 9:6 I would ask why the word “name” is singular yet we’re dealing with 4 names.

And his name (singular) shall be called (1) Wonderful Counselor, (2) The mighty El, (3) The everlasting Father, (4) The Prince of Peace.

Thank you for posting the picture of the Hewbrew, since my computer doesn't support the Hewbrew, but it was wonderful to see it in Hewbrew and by you posting a picture of it I could.

I think you are on to something. The Judaic Press Complete Tanakh has the same translation that you are stating is probably more accurate:

Judaica Press Complete Tanach

Yeshayahu - Chapter 9

5. For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."
6. To him who increases the authority, and for peace without end, on David's throne and on his kingdom, to establish it and to support it with justice and with righteousness; from now and to eternity, the zeal of the Lord of Hosts shall accomplish this.

It certainly explains a lot for people that never quite thought this verse in the KJV meshed well with what Yahushua proclaimed.

Another explanation I have heard about the KJV translation is that just because he would be called those things doesn't mean Scripture was saying that he actually is a mighty El (God) or the Everlasting Father.

I think your point is FAR more valid.

P.S. In a few areas of your post you have Isaiah 9:12 and I believe you mean 9:5

One example in your post for instance:

quote:

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Only, in Isaiah 9:12, instead of

Hebrew: Called his (the son’s) name, the Father ---> “Prince of Peace”

English: The Father called his (the son’s) name, “Prince of Peace”

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Because Isaiah 9:12 says:

12. And the people has not returned to the One Who smites it, and YHWH of Hosts they have not sought.

Shalom,
M

thanks for your feedback, I also liked what you shared about the child/son's name being singular.

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shalom tedack and adelore,

thanks :)

...

shalom Missy, oops, yes it's supposed to be Isaiah 9:5, I've edited my post, thank you!

thanks also for sharing the Judaica Press Complete Tanach, I enjoyed reading it. It's starting to become my favourite verse, heh :)

WOW what an excellent Shabbat morning meal!

Psa 34:8 Oh, taste and see that éäåä is good; Blessed is the man that takes refuge in Him!

bluespun,

Very well written and a joy to follow!

Thanks

quote:

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Originally posted by squartucci:
Shalom All

WOW what an excellent Shabbat morning meal!

Psa 34:8 Oh, taste and see that éäåä is good; Blessed is the man that takes refuge in Him!

bluespun,

Very well written and a joy to follow!

Thanks

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Tell me about it! Wasn't this something excellent to have as a "meal"!

Want to talk about edification... Bluesun's post here! HalleluYAH!

For all that have "ears" let them "hear"!

The Concordant Literal Version, which matches the Hebrew Interlinear I have pretty closely but breaks it up differently, states:

Isa 9:6
For a Boy is born to us; a Son is given to us, and the chieftainship shall come to be on His shoulder, and His name is called "Marvelous." Counsel to the master shall He bring, to the chief of the future, welfare.

The Hebrew literally word for word in order into English reads:

That boy, he is born to us, son he is given to us, and shall become the chieftainship on shoulder blade of him, and he shall be called name of him; marvelous one counseling to master father of future chief of welfare.

The confusion in the verse in English translations is only over "Everlasting Father," as this makes us think of the same one Yahshua called "Father," though that may not be true but a false misconception we have causing our interpretation to be skewed. The literal interpretation of the Hebrew Interlinear and Concordant Literal Translation don't have that problem in the way they translate the Hebrew literally into English word for word, as the testimony of Yahshua is the spirit of prophecy (according to Revelations) and "father of the future" makes sense for him.

I'm both a son and a father. But I'm not the same guy as my father. I fail to see where the confusion is about the Son being father of something, such as prophecy. Because the Hebrew manuscripts have the "name" being several words of description lumped together AFTER it says basically "this is his name," I find it hard to believe parts of the description are for one being while only the last portion is for the subject of the whole passage, the Son to be born.

When we approach a reference from the standpoint of confusion, it seems likely we'll wrestle it. Because isn't that what we are doing when we are confused and trying to figure something out? Wrestling with it? Such is how the Scriptures get wrestled as Peter said. This is the problem people have with Paul's letters. Because of confusion over things he says, they then turn to wrestling it. Which leads to error. Our natural understanding cannot receive the things of the Spirit, as the Scriptures tell us plainly. But still we try - in vain I might add.

Only that which the Word in us reveals as we walk with him gives us real knowledge of the Kingdom. We can study the Scriptures all our natural years and come to many wrong conclusions like the Pharisees did, and worry and fret about that. Since the Kingdom is not about our natural understanding, we have nothing to worry and fret about. We don't need to know everything, just our portion to do our purpose on the earth for our Master Yahshua, if we are truly submitting to him as our Master and being daily about his business for our lives, which is the same as his Father's will for us, since they are in perfect unity, being of one accord and mind.

IF the CLV is right, only the first part is the name "Marvelous." I can concur with this, that Yahshua certainly is Marvelous! and fully worthy of that name. According to the rest of the CLV translation, it is a description of the one with that name, what he will do. He will, "Counsel to the master shall he bring, to the chief of the future, welfare." Don't ask me exactly what that means, I can only guess right now. Does chief of future mean the best part of the future or what? I'm not sure what Bluesun found is right, or the CLV is right, or the interlinear, or the KJV or the MKJV or the this or that translation?

Don't know. I do know that the subject of the whole verse is the son to be born and have the government on his shoulders. This means he's my Master if I'm truly of that government/Kingdom. That means I bow to him as my Master. That means I do what he says and he is my King and Sovereign. That means I do not disrespect him in any way, shape or form. It also means he is worthy and I don't have to be concerned with any voice that tells me differently, that he isn't worthy of the honor, as the Master of the whole Kingdom. And, it means, I need to be about his business for me, which is my true obedience.

If I am not, I'm also not pleasing our Father in heaven, who has given his Son that authority over me as my Master to bow to and serve, who only directs me according to the perfect will of his Father. That also means that if I bow to the Son, I'm in effect bowing to the Father's authority and acknowledging his decisions as "good" to put his Son on the throne over all the Kingdom and all creation. Which also means that if I do not bow before the Son, it means I'm telling the Father in my actions that I disagree with his decision to give all power and authority to his Son. That is, I would be calling the Father "wrong."

And all of that is more important than knowing exactly how to translate what Isaiah stated after "the government will be on his shoulders." Whatever he was stating, it was about the Son, and that is made clear in the passage as the Son is the only subject mentioned. If two subjects had been mentioned in the passage, we might get rightly confused over which one which portion of description applies to.

May our seeking of theological knowledge not overshadow our receiving of the Kingdom within us through Messiah our Master, and his daily leading, and his daily empowerment by the Spirit sent as promised, that we may be about his, and Father's business, which is the same business, as Elohim is unified.

The Word within the people of Elohim, the anointing of Messiah in us, teaches us as he wills, as we are on a "need to know" basis for our purpose right now in this age. Paul knew this and said we "know in part and prophecy in part." What is the specialty he wants you to have and mission to accomplish, and are you actually focused on doing that, or are you focused on something else? If you are not focused on your mission as the Master's servant, than what spirit is leading you to focus on something else? His or another? If your focus in the Kingdom is not your specific mission and being empowered for it, isn't that rebellion and doing your own thing?

There is much theology speculation going around, but how is it helping us accomplish the mission in this season or this age?

What is the main purpose of the Tanakh? To fill you with theological knowledge and know everything there is to know in this age, or to point you to Yahshua the Messiah, the Master of the whole Kingdom, put in that authority by his Father? We have an example given in the Scriptures of the two ways and which actually leads to Life.

John 5:38-47 MKJV And you do not have His Word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He has sent. (39) You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life. And they are the ones witnessing of Me, (40) and you will not come to Me that you might have life. (41) I do not receive honor from men. (42) But I know you, that you do not have the love of Elohim in you. (43) I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me. If another shall come in his own name, him you will receive. (44) How can you believe, you who receive honor from one another and do not seek the honor that comes from Elohim only? (45) Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you, Moses, in whom you trust. (46) For if you had believed Moses, you would have believed Me, for he wrote of Me. (47) But if you do not believe his writings, how shall you believe My Words?

Remember, he's speaking to people who made their lives about studying the Scriptures and thought they knew and understood them. They didn't, because they didn't find the Truth (Yahshua) that all those Scriptures were about. All of them, not part of them. It is all written about Yahshua, my brethren, that we might come to him, and he bring us to his Father that we may have fellowship with the whole family named in heaven. And we preach that there is no other Way but him.

What are we to do that will bring us honor from Elohim rather than men if not doing our Kingdom assignment? Do you even know your Kingdom assignment? Could it be if you don't know, that you don't know because you are not properly bowing before the Master of the Kingdom who, once you submit to him, will tell/show you your mission and send you on your way in it? Could it be we've allowed ourselves many times to be distracted by various things, even pursuits that look good but have no benefit for us in being fruitful branches?

Could one of the distractions be focusing on the knowledge of good and evil? Thinking such will give us life, when only one can give us Life, Yahshua the Messiah, the tree of Life with truly good fruit.

The more the anointing of Messiah in me impresses this on my heart in this season, the more I am understanding what Paul meant in this:

1 Corinthians 2:1-5 MKJV And I, brothers, when I came to you, did not come with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring to you the testimony of Elohim. (2) For I determined not to know anything among you except Yahshua the Messiah and Him crucified. (3) And I was with you in weakness and in fear, and in much trembling. (4) And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, (5) so that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of Elohim.

May we all be able to submit to the Master of heaven and earth, given that authority by his great Father in heaven, and receive of our part, and be about doing it in this age, that we may each finish the race and hear "well done, good and faithful servant."

Matthew 28:18 MKJV And Yahshua came and spoke to them, saying, All authority is given to Me in Heaven and in earth.

John 17:1-3 MKJV Yahshua spoke these words and lifted up His eyes to Heaven and said, Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son so that Your Son also may glorify You, (2) even as You have given Him authority over all flesh so that He should give eternal life to all You have given Him. (3) And this is life eternal, that they might know You, the only true Elohim, and Yahshua the Messiah whom You have sent.

Ephesians 1:19-23 MKJV and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us, the ones believing according to the working of His mighty strength (20) which He worked in Messiah in raising Him from the dead, and He seated Him at His right hand in the heavenlies, (21) far above all principality and authority and power and dominion, and every name being named, not only in this world, but also in the coming age. (22) And He has put all things under His feet and gave Him to be Head over all things to the called out, (23) which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

Worthy is the Lamb who has been given all authority with his Father, by his Father. We can look on him and say "I have known the Father, because I have known Yahshua my Master."

John 14:6-13 MKJV Yahshua said to him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but by Me. (7) If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also. And from now on you know Him and have seen Him. (8) Philip said to Him, Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us. (9) Yahshua said to him, Have I been with you such a long time and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father. And how do you say, Show us the Father? (10) Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in Me? The Words that I speak to you I do not speak of Myself, but the Father who dwells in Me, He does the works. (11) Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the very works themselves. (12) Truly, truly, I say to you, He who believes on Me, the works that I do he shall do also, and greater works than these he shall do, because I go to My Father. (13) And whatever you may ask in My name, that I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Do we have a real revelation in us, our inner man, of the actual authority level Yahshua possesses?

May our Father in heaven protect us in the name of Yahshua from the enemies in spirit who tempt us to count Yahshua unworthy in any manner, which is the same as saying the Father is unworthy, even in ignorance. If the Father did not want us to bow to his Son, he would not have given him to sit on his throne with him, with all power and authority, worthy of all honor and adoration and submission. Submitting fully to the Son can never be wrong, in any way, as it is the same as submitting to the Father, and indeed, is the only Way given for men on earth to submit to the Father. Selah.

In his service and yours,

David

quote:

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Originally posted by bluesun:
Shabbat shalom, all (sabbath/7th day peace, Chuck )

I would like to share something which I learnt last night, that may interest some of you.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
...

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Thanks for the interesting explanation of Isa.9:6. I think i was able to understand it pretty well. While it looks possible, i have a some problems, 1 mental & 2 linguistic.

"Mental" reservation:
Shieldofdavid said: "Whatever he was stating, it was about the Son, and that is made clear in the passage as the Son is the only subject mentioned."

I agree with that, and the assignment of the intermediate titles to the Father would seem to me to detract from the main subject of the Son. Also, i can't think of any other Scripture where the Father is referred to by so many titles as the subject of a sentence. Usually it's just "YHWH", or "the Mighty One", or "YHWH the Mighty One". I think about 3's the max.

"Linguistic" problem:
1. Based on the Hebrew word-order you described, the primary (or only?) subject is "His Name", NOT the following titles.
2. According to my Interlinear, the verb "called", which appears first in the word-order, is in the PASSIVE VOICE, i.e. "is called" or "shall be called".
(Of course, i can't vouch for that, and Mr. J.P. Green isn't infallible.)

Based on the above, if the 4-5 intermediate titles are part of the OBJECT (along with "Prince of Peace"), then the familiar translations would be essentially correct, with the following Hebrew word-order:

"and" "shall be called" "His Name" (subject) "[all following titles thru "Prince of Peace"]" (object).

But if they are all part of the SUBJECT, as suggested, then we have the following word-order and resulting breakdown:

"and" "shall be called" "His Name" + "[all following titles except "Prince of Peace"]" (subject) "Prince of Peace" (object).

This would mean that...
"His Name" shall be called "Prince of Peace",
"Wonderful Consellor" shall be called "Prince of Peace",
"the Mighty EL" shall be called "Prince of Peace",
and "the Everlasting Father" shall be called "Prince of Peace".

This doesn't make much sense to me, so for now i'll stay with the single-subject version, although i'm sure there may be a better translation of some of the titles.

I have really enjoyed the thread so far and I don't like to be one who feels as though I must post in every thread on the forum...but I must ask a question...

First of all, I think I understand and have no problem with the translation presented by bluesun. I have read the following replies and although I have enjoyed it, I am reminded of this passage:

1Jn 2:26 I wrote these things to you concerning the ones leading you astray.
1Jn 2:27 And the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone teach you. But as His anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and as He taught you, abide in Him.

We must learn to go to the source of Truth, who is Truth himself, and from Him all truth comes, YHWH the eternal one! He said the Law would be written in our hearts, he said that we are the temple that He desires to dwell in, our lives to be a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to YHWH.

Truth is not in a book, not in a religion, not in a denomination, or in an organization....YHWH is TRUTH. I am not rebuking anyone at all, as a matter of fact this is an admonishment even to myself that I must learn to go to YHWH and seek for wisdom and understanding. We continue to go to other books, other references, other writings, other men's ideas to gain understanding while TRUTH abides in us all along!

I would ask that we all together would begin to ask YHWH and listen to HIS Voice, because the Ruach is not a dumb spirit, he can speak! I read Scriptures, I study, but I am learning from Abba Father that the LIVING WORD comes from YHWH, and HE dwells within us and as we read in the epistle of John the annointing will teach us all things....

I challenge us all to begin to allow the annointing to speak to our hearts!

Shalom and blessings in Yahushua
Ariyah

Dueteronomy 6:4 proclaims there to be Yahoo'ah echad/the Hebrew numeral synonymous with the English numeral one! When we try to make more than one we go beyond the words of Scripture!

I may not know enough Hebrew grammer to aduquately refute the arguements made here by Jewish Rabbis that deny Yahoo'shooa of Natsareth is the Messiah the Son of the Living Elohim (Mashiach, ben Elohim Chyim). All I know by the Ruach ha Kodesh of Yahoo'ah is that he was more than a mere man!

This mystery of the Evangel of Yahoo'shooa the Messiah may just be one of those intimate secrets that belong to Yahoo'ah as I read in the last edition of the Botkin Bi-Monthly Newsletter from Gates of Eden March-April 2007, Volume 13, #2, page 16, under Q&A P.O. Box 2257 East Peoria Illinios 61611-0257 by Daniel Botkin and not something we are to have long debates about.