quote:

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Originally posted by wstruse:
Glenn,

Thanks for the links. I believe that the Red Sea crossing took place at the “sea of reeds” as it is called in Exodus 10:19. This would require only a journey of 10-20 miles.

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AND. . . .

quote:

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Originally posted by wstruse:

Glenn,

If you don't mind I would like to continue this discussion on a separate thread.

William Struse

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Shalom William,

As per your request, I have started a new thread regarding this issue of the true Red Sea crossing.

Well, your view that the crossing took place in the "sea of reeds" is a common view--similar to the view that the crossing took place at the upper end of the Gulf of Suez. While it is true that the word used for "Red Sea" might possibly be translated "sea of reeds", it's contextual usage throughout Scripture shows that it is clearly speaking of the actual "Red Sea" as it is called today--not the "Sea of Reeds."

"And I will set thy bounds from the Red sea even unto the sea of the Philistines, and from the desert unto the river: for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand; and thou shalt drive them out before thee." (Exodus 23:31)

Did Israel EVER establish one of it's boundaries at the "Sea of Reeds?"

"And king Solomon made a navy of ships in Eziongeber, which is beside Eloth, on the shore of the Red sea, in the land of Edom. And Hiram sent in the navy his servants, shipmen that had knowledge of the sea, with the servants of Solomon. And they came to Ophir, and fetched from thence gold, four hundred and twenty talents, and brought it to king Solomon." (1 Kings 9:26-28)

Did king Solomon EVER place naval ships on the "Sea of Reeds" and then send them FROM THERE to the land of Ophir to bring 420 talents of Gold to king Solomon?

I think this could not be.

If this is really where the children of Israel "crossed over" where are the mountains that supposedly pinned them in? There are NO MOUNTAINS adjacent to the "Sea of Reeds!" And if the so-called "Mount Sinai" is the "true" mountain of Yahweh, then where at its summit is the necessary room for 1-3 million Israelites to camp?

The map I linked to earlier was just one of the maps, but it is not a true depiction of what happened at the Exodus. Here is another map, which shows what actually happened:

You will notice that the path they take brings them to the other side of the Sinai Peninsula, along the Gulf of Aquaba. Here is a closeup view of where the actual crossing took place:

You will notice that there is a pillar in the photo showing where Solomon placed his marker to show where the Red Sea crossing took place. Another pillar was found on the Arabian side of the crossing, but this pillar was taken away by the Saudian government and placed in an undisclosed location. They did leave behind a marker "flag" where the pillar once stood, but that is all. Evidently, the pillar on the Egyptian side has faded writing on it. The pillar on the Arabian side also had writing on it, but we do not as yet have a translation/transcript. The name of Solomon did appear on this pillar.

Here below is an other photo, this time of one of the chariot wheels from the armies of Pharoah. It was found at the bottom of the Red Sea near the Gulf of Aquaba near Nuweiba. The wood has mostly rotted away, leaving only the Gold that it was covered by:

So where did this come from? Why is it in this particular location? Have chariot wheels been found in the Sea of Reeds? I doubt it. But several have been discovered and photographed in the Gulf of Aquaba near Nuweiba.

Since the issue also concerns chronology, it is interesting to note that during various Egyptian dynasties the types of chariot wheels created had their own special styles. At the bottom of the Red Sea, separately Jonathan Gray and Ron Wyatt discovered 4 spoke, 6 spoke, and 8 spoke chariot wheels. Now 4 and 6 spoked wheels are not that unusual--they can be found in many different dynasties. But the 8 spoked wheel is very unique! It was only made during a brief period in the 18th dynasty of Egypt. That would be in about the middle of the 15th century BCE (somewhere around 1450 BCE). (Please see Observations on the Evolving Chariot Wheel in the 18th Dynasty, James K. Hoffmeier. JARCE, #13, 1976).

Concerning the route and general terrain by which Moses led the children of Israel out of Egypt, Josephus writes:

"3. But the Egyptians soon repented that the Hebrews were gone; and the king also was mightily concerned that this had been procured by the magic arts of Moses; so they resolved to go after them. Accordingly they took their weapons, and other warlike furniture, and pursued after them, in order to bring them back, if once they overtook them, because they would now have no pretense to pray to God against them, since they had already been permitted to go out; and they thought they should easily overcome them, as they had no armor, and would be weary with their journey; so they made haste in their pursuit, and asked of every one they met which way they were gone. And indeed that land was difficult to be traveled over, not only by armies, but by single persons. Now Moses led the Hebrews this way, that in case the Egyptians should repent and be desirous to pursue after them, they might undergo the punishment of their wickedness, and of the breach of those promises they had made to them. As also he led them this way on account of the Philistines, who had quarreled with them, and hated them of old, that by all means they might not know of their departure, for their country is near to that of Egypt; and thence it was that Moses led them not along the road that tended to the land of the Philistines, but he was desirous that they should go through the desert, that so after a long journey, and after many afflictions, they might enter upon the land of Canaan. Another reason of this was, that God commanded him to bring the people to Mount Sinai, that there they might offer him sacrifices. Now when the Egyptians had overtaken the Hebrews, they prepared to fight them, and by their multitude they drove them into a narrow place; for the number that pursued after them was six hundred chariots, with fifty thousand horsemen, and two hundred thousand foot-men, all armed. They also seized on the passages by which they imagined the Hebrews might fly, shutting them up (29) between inaccessible precipices and the sea; for there was [on each side] a [ridge of] mountains that terminated at the sea, which were impassable by reason of their roughness, and obstructed their flight; wherefore they there pressed upon the Hebrews with their army, where [the ridges of] the mountains were closed with the sea; which army they placed at the chops of the mountains, that so they might deprive them of any passage into the plain." ( Antiquities of the Jews, by Flavius Josephus, Book 2, Chapter 15, Section 3)

If they were at the "Sea of Reeds" then why did the Egyptians have to ask where they went? If they were supposed to be "weary from their journey", how could that be so if it were only about 10 to 20 miles over 2 days? And if they were pinned in by the Mountains and the Sea, then what mountains are there near the Sea of Reeds which can even come close to qualifying?

Now regarding Mount Sinai, if the current "Mount Sinai" is not the real one, then where is the REAL "Mount Sinai?" Well, it is in Saudia Arabia at a place called "Jabel-El Lawz" which in Arabic means "the Mountain of the Law". Ring a bell? In addition to this, Shaul tells us plainly where Mount Sinai is:

"For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children." (Galatians 4:25)

There are photographs of the rock at Rephidim, the one which Moses struck to bring water to over a million Israelites. This rock is only a short journey away from Jabel-el-Lawz in Saudia Arabia. It is split into 4 parts down from the top to the bottom, with clear evidence of a great amount of water erosion at the base of it, with erosion marks extending out to the valley below.

Hope this helps.

Best Regards,

Glenn

PS: Here is a link to only one of the websites which explain the Red Sea Crossing. http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/bb971126.htm If you wish to find other references, please do a search for "True Red Sea Crossing", or "Jonathan Gray" or "Ron Wyatt".

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======= Time is Running Out =======

Here is my previous post from the other thread.
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Thanks for the links. I believe that the Red Sea crossing took place at the “sea of reeds” as it is called in Exodus 10:19. This would require only a journey of 10-20 miles.

Exodus 13:18 18 But God led the people about, through the way of the wilderness of the Red sea: and the children of Israel went up harnessed out of the land of Egypt.

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5488 Reed = cuwph {soof}
Meaning: 1) reed, rush, water plant 1a) rushes 1b) sea of rushes 1b1) of Red Sea 1b2) of arms of Red Sea 1b3) of Gulf of Suez 1b4) of sea from straits to Gulf of Akaba
Origin: probably of Egyptian origin; TWOT - 1479; n m
Usage: AV - Red 24, flags 3, weeds 1; 28

3220 Sea = {yawm}
Meaning: 1) sea 1a) Mediterranean Sea 1b) Red Sea 1c) Dead Sea 1d) Sea of Galilee 1e) sea (general) 1f) mighty river (Nile) 1g) the sea (the great basin in the temple court) 1h) seaward, west, westward
Origin: from an unused root meaning to roar; TWOT - 871a; n m
Usage: AV - sea 321, west 47, westward 21, west side 4, seafaring men 1, south 1, western 1; 396
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I do not think it should be overlooked that the Scripture states they traveled by day and night. With cattle and children it is unlikely that they travel more than 10 miles a day if that. It is even more unlikely that they traveled “day and night” as the Scripture states, for any extended period of time.

After leaving Rameses the Scripture states they encamped before Pihahiroth, between Migdo and the sea. This encampment was just before the crossing of the “see of reeds”. Both Pihahiroth and Migdo are know sites on the Gulf of Suez. The narrative of the Scripture leaves no room for a 160 – 180 mile journey from that encampment before they cross over the “see of reeds”.

Exodus 14:1-2
And YHWH spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, that they turn and encamp before Pihahiroth, between Migdol and the sea, over against Baalzephon: before it shall ye encamp by the sea.

After crossing the “sea of reeds” they entered the wilderness of Shur. They then went 3 days into the wilderness. They came to the waters of Marah. From there they went to Elim. After Elim they came into the wilderness of Sin. This is between Elim and Sinai.
This was approximately 30 days after the Exodus. After the provision of Mana and quail they traveled to Rephidim. After departing from Rephidim they came into the desert of Sinai and pitched their tents in the 3rd month.

Some of these sights have been found along the Gulf of Suez. It just seems highly unlikely to me that they crossed over the Red Sea and then travel back around the Gulf of Akubah to Marah, Elim on the other side of the wilderness of Shur.

That is my take on it for what it is worth…..

Your servant in Yashua the Messiah,

William Struse

P.S.
If you are going to quote Josephus as a source at least give his complete chronology of events. Note the quote below which is only a few verses previous to the quote you gave. It clearly states it took 3 days to the Red Sea. Also note the mountain ridge on the topographical map below.

Antiquities of the Jews 2:315 315 So the Hebrews went out of Egypt, while the Egyptians wept, and repented that they had treated them so harshly. Now they took their journey by Letopolis, a place at that time deserted, but where Babylon was built afterward, when Cambyses laid Egypt waste: but as they went away hastily, on the third day they came to a place called Baalzephon, on the Red Sea;

Also note that your maps above do not take into account the Red Sea as it was in the BC era. The Red Sea came all the way up past your current Exodus route. This would have required 2 Red Sea crossings.

I will be updating this topic in the future @ www.countdowntothemessiah.com

quote:

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Originally posted by wstruse:

The angle [sp?] of death passed over the Egyptians on the night of the 6th day of the week. That morning (i.e. the 15th) Israel left Egypt. They traveled by day and night until they came to the Red Sea. (Exo. 14) That night YHWH caused a wind to divide the Red Sea. Israel crossed over the Red Sea early in the morning. Again the text here does not state what day of the week they crossed over the Red Sea but from the text it does not appear that the journey from Succoth to the Red Sea took more than the 15th and 16th. It is likely then that Israel crossed over the Red Sea very early in the morning of the 17th of the 1st month (Nisan or Aviv)

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Shalom William,

This is actually my first response, which I am reposting here.

Looked over your first post (in the other forum). I noticed that you have made some statements concerning the "timing" of the original Exodus which leaves me baffled. You say that the text shows that "it does not appear that the journey from Succoth to the Red Sea took more than the 15th and 16th." What? How could they travel over 160 [possibly 200] miles in 2 days?

Now I have a map of the misnamed "Sinai Peninsula" and it shows that the distance from Succoth to Nuweiba is about 160-180 miles accross the entire peninsula. Nuweiba is (of course) the site of the true Red Sea crossing (See this website map link: http://www.specialtyinterests.net/map_sinai.html). Now maybe I don't have the exact distance, but I am sure it is close to that. I lost my keys recently and had to travel 21 miles, 14 of them by foot. It took me about 9 hours and I thought I was going to die! I cannot imagine the Israelites traveling more than 20-25 miles per day by foot--even if they traveled day and night. I think it would have taken at least 6 days, possibly 8 days to travel to the Red Sea. {http://www.bibleexplained.com/Gospels/map-egypt-sinai.html}

Many people believe that Moses and the children of Israel crossed over very close to Succoth near the Gulf of Suez or even at the "Sea of Reeds". If that were true, then yes a 2 day journey would be no problem. However, the evidence from Scripture and a basic understanding of the layout of the land seems to rule out such views. The Israelites crossed over on the other arm of the Red Sea, at the Gulf of Aquaba. (Please see this link for more info: http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/bb971126.htm

Regards,

Glenn

Regarding the Scriptural usage of the term “Reed Sea” it seems to me that this applied to both peninsulas of the Red Sea proper. Here are the usages of “Red Sea” or “Reed Sea” as given in the Scripture. Exod. 10:19; 13:18; 15:4, 22; 23:31; Num. 14:25; 21:4; 33:10f; Deut. 1:40; 2:1; 11:4; Jos. 2:10; 4:23; 24:6; Jdg. 11:16; 1 Ki. 9:26; Neh. 9:9; Ps. 106:7, 9, 22; 136:13, 15; Jer. 49:21
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Deuteronomy states that it is an eleven days journey from Horeb (Sinai) by the way of mount Seir unto Kadeshbarnea. If we take the proposed Sinai of Jebel el Lawz as the real Sinai it is approximately 20-30% farther from Rameses to Jebel el Lawz than it is from Kadeshbarnea to Jebel el Lawz. This would have required at least 3 or 4 more days to an eleven day journey. This hardly fits the description given in Exodus.

Deuteronomy 1:1-2
These be the words which Moses spake unto all Israel on this side Jordan in the wilderness, in the plain over against the Red sea, between Paran, and Tophel, and Laban, and Hazeroth, and Dizahab. 2 (There are eleven days' journey from Horeb by the way of mount Seir unto Kadeshbarnea.)

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The wilderness of Shur is defined by the verses below. It is clearly the wilderness Directly south of Israel between Mt Sier and Egypt. Israel went 3 days journey into the wilderness of Shur just after they crossed over the “Red Sea”. The Scripture clearly defines this Shur and secular sources clearly define this area as well. Both are in agreement. There is no way I can see based on just the definition of the Scripture how the wilderness of Shur could be on the other side of the Gulf of Akubah. Below you can see Shur clearly defined on the map link you originally provided me.

1 Samuel 15:7 And Saul smote the Amalekites from Havilah until thou comest to Shur, that is over against Egypt.

1 Samuel 27:8 And David and his men went up, and invaded the Geshurites, and the Gezrites, and the Amalekites: for those nations were of old the inhabitants of the land, as thou goest to Shur, even unto the land of Egypt.

Genesis 25:18 8 And they dwelt from Havilah unto Shur, that is before Egypt, as thou goest toward Assyria: and he died in the presence of all his brethren.

Genesis 20:1 V Genesis 20:1 And Abraham journeyed from thence toward the south country, and dwelled between Kadesh and Shur, and sojourned in Gerar.

Genesis 16:7 And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur.

Exodus 15:22-23 So Moses brought Israel from the Red sea, and they went out into the wilderness of Shur; and they went three days in the wilderness, and found no water. 23 And when they came to Marah, they could not drink of the waters of Marah, for they were bitter: therefore the name of it was called Marah.

Faussets Bible Dictionary
3344 Shur
3344.01 Outside the eastern border of Egypt. Meaning "a wall." The strip of desert which skirts the wall-like range of jebel er Rahah (E. of Suez, the continuation of the range jebel et Tih northward toward the Mediterranean, still called by the Arabs jebel es Sur) as far S. as wady Gharandel. Hagar fleeing from Abraham, then in southern Palestine, reached a fountain "in the way to Shur" (Gen. 16:7). She was probably making for her country Egypt by the inland caravan route, the way by Star over jebel er Rahah as distinguished from the coast road by el Arish. Abraham settled for a time between the two deserts of Kadesh and Shur, and finally sojourned at Gerar (Gen. 20:1). In Gen. 25:18 Shur is defined to be "before (i.e. E. of) Egypt." So 1 Sam. 15:7; 27:8; Josephus (Ant. 6:7) makes it Pelusium, near the Nile's mouth; others the N.E. part of the wilderness of Paran, now al Jifar. Gesenius makes Shur the modern Suez. Israel entered "the wilderness of Shur" when they had crossed the Red Sea (Exo. 15:22,23). The wilderness of Shur is the whole district between the N.E. frontier of Egypt and Palestine, Shur being derived from the Egyptian Khar (occurring in a papyrus of the 19th dynasty), Kh and Sh being interchanged. In Num. 33:8 the special designation occurs, "the wilderness of Etham" (at the northern extremity of the Bitter Lakes).

ISBE Bible Dictionary
8062 Shur
, (Heb: shur; Grk: Sour): The name of a desert East of the Gulf of Suez. The word means a "wall," and may probably refer to the mountain wall of the Tih plateau as visible from the shore plains. In Gen 16:7 Hagar at Kadesh (`Ain Qadis) (see 16:14) is said to have been "in the way to Shur." Abraham also lived "between Kadesh and Shur" (Gen 20:1). The position of Shur is defined (Gen 25:18) as being "opposite Egypt on the way to Assyria." After crossing the Red Sea (Ex 15:4) the Hebrews entered the desert of Shur (Ex 15:22), which extended southward a distance of three days' journey. It is again noticed (1 Sam 15:7) as being opposite Egypt, and (1 Sam 27:8) as near Egypt. There is thus no doubt of its situation, on the East of the Red Sea, and of the Bitter Lakes.

Brugsch, however, proposed to regard Shur ("the wall") as equivalent to the Egyptian anbu ("wall"), the name of a fortification of some kind apparently near Kantarah (see MIGDOL (2)), probably barring the entrance to Egypt on the road from Pelusium to Zoan. The extent of this "wall" is unknown, but Brugsch connects it with the wall mentioned by Diodorus Siculus (i.4) who wrote about 8 BC, and who attributed it to Sesostris (probably Rameses II) who defended "the east side of Egypt against the irruptions of the Syrians and Arabians, by a wall drawn from Pelusium through the deserts as far as to Heliopolis, for a space of 1,500 furlongs." Heliopolis lies 90 miles (not 188) Southwest of Pelusium: this wall, if it existed at all, would have run on the edge of the desert which extends North of Wady Tumeilat from Kantarah to Tell el-Kebir; but this line, on the borders of Goshen, is evidently much too far West to have any connection with the desert of Shur East of the Gulf of Suez. See Budge, Hist. Egypt, 90; Brugsch, Egypt under the Pharaohs, abridged edition, 320.
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I have no doubt that there is something at Jebel el Lawz. I have a copy of Ron Wyatt’s tape and I am familiar with the claims. In my opinion it just does not hold up to Scriptural scrutiny.

quote:

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Originally posted by wstruse:
Glenn,

Regarding the Scriptural usage of the term “Reed Sea” it seems to me that this applied to both peninsulas of the Red Sea proper. Here are the usages of “Red Sea” or “Reed Sea” as given in the Scripture. Exod. 10:19; 13:18; 15:4, 22; 23:31; Num. 14:25; 21:4; 33:10f; Deut. 1:40; 2:1; 11:4; Jos. 2:10; 4:23; 24:6; Jdg. 11:16; 1 Ki. 9:26; Neh. 9:9; Ps. 106:7, 9, 22; 136:13, 15; Jer. 49:21

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Yes, it did and it could. But, as you know, we must look at ALL the evidence before making a decision. So my question again is: Where are the mountains that pinned the Israelites in? Are there mountains of that nature surrounding this "sea of reeds?" I think not!

quote:

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Originally posted by wstruse:
Glenn,

Deuteronomy states that it is an eleven days journey from Horeb (Sinai) by the way of mount Seir unto Kadeshbarnea. If we take the proposed Sinai of Jebel el Lawz as the real Sinai it is approximately 20-30% farther from Rameses to Jebel el Lawz than it is from Kadeshbarnea to Jebel el Lawz. This would have required at least 3 or 4 more days to an eleven day journey. This hardly fits the description given in Exodus.

[b]Deuteronomy 1:1-2
These be the words which Moses spake unto all Israel on this side Jordan in the wilderness, in the plain over against the Red sea, between Paran, and Tophel, and Laban, and Hazeroth, and Dizahab. 2 (There are eleven days' journey from Horeb by the way of mount Seir unto Kadeshbarnea.)

_________________________________________________________________

The wilderness of Shur is defined by the verses below. It is clearly the wilderness Directly south of Israel between Mt Sier and Egypt. Israel went 3 days journey into the wilderness of Shur just after they crossed over the “Red Sea”. The Scripture clearly defines this Shur and secular sources clearly define this area as well. Both are in agreement. There is no way I can see based on just the definition of the Scripture how the wilderness of Shur could be on the other side of the Gulf of Akubah. Below you can see Shur clearly defined on the map link you originally provided me.
[/B]

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Are you sure you know where shur really is? The map shows it to be a small area on the northern end of the Sinai Peninsula. But could it be a much larger area that extends through the entire wilderness from the northern Sinai penensula across the Negev region near the Gulf of Aquaba? When I see someone go to great lengths to disprove the Wyatt claims of discovering Mount Sinai and the Red Sea crossing--I wish I could just SCREAM!! It is clear that they are biased, they have an agenda to discredit someone, and are unwilling to look at all the facts. I have seen their websites--and I am not impressed. They will use "maps" with locations circled in "red" as if that were the "final court of appeals." Several try to use "ridicule" against Wyatt and others without even going into the evidence. They go to great lengths to denegrate the discoverer BEFORE they present any evidence. With only rare exceptions do they look at the issue with an open mind.

And just because it is in a MAP at the end of our Bibles does not prove it is 100% accurate, or 90% accurate, or even 60% accurate. I, for one, have never taken the position that the King James Version is the VERBATUM, error free, word of Yahweh--and I am CERTAINLY NOT going to add to their purgury by claiming that EVEN THE MAPS in the back of those Bibles are without error!

The same is true in regards to the location of Mt. Seir and Kadesh-Barnea. Are we really shur of its exact location? No one is really absolutely certain of where these places are--so how can we rely upon a supposed 20-30% discrepency in distance to prove that Jabel-el Lawz is not the true Mount Sinai? If they are not certain of EXACTLY where Kadesh Barnea and Mount Seir are, how can anyone say that it cannot be in Arabia (as Shaul says it is)? Notice what is said by this commentator:

"4) There is no "universal" consensus on the location of Kadesh Barnea. Before 1840 CE, the site was identified with Petra in ancient Edom, following the identification made by the 1st century CE Jewish historian Flavius Josephus. Still later, in the 19th century CE, it was thought to be somewhere in the Arabah. In 1840 with the discovery of "Ain Gades/Kades" (today's Ain el Qadeis), the site moved to the Negev. Today, nearby Ain el Qudeirat is favored by many.
5) There is no "universal" agreement on the location of Mount Seir. Some understand it lies east of the Arabah valley which extends south of the Dead Sea to the Gulf of Aqaba. Others, that it lies west of the Arabah, in either the Hill Country above Arad or the Negev south of Arad."
http://www.bibleorigins.net/MountSinaiVariousProposals.html

If the scholars are not even sure where these 2 exact locations are for certain--why should we be unwilling to consider other evidence? And if these locations are not absolutely well defined, how can we use that to disprove where the true Mount Sinai is?

quote:

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Originally posted by wstruse:

. . . .

[b]1 Samuel 15:7 And Saul smote the Amalekites from Havilah until thou comest to Shur, that is over against Egypt.

1 Samuel 27:8 And David and his men went up, and invaded the Geshurites, and the Gezrites, and the Amalekites: for those nations were of old the inhabitants of the land, as thou goest to Shur, even unto the land of Egypt.

Genesis 25:18 8 And they dwelt from Havilah unto Shur, that is before Egypt, as thou goest toward Assyria: and he died in the presence of all his brethren.

Genesis 20:1 V Genesis 20:1 And Abraham journeyed from thence toward the south country, and dwelled between Kadesh and Shur, and sojourned in Gerar.

Genesis 16:7 And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur.

Exodus 15:22-23 So Moses brought Israel from the Red sea, and they went out into the wilderness of Shur; and they went three days in the wilderness, and found no water. 23 And when they came to Marah, they could not drink of the waters of Marah, for they were bitter: therefore the name of it was called Marah.

[/B]

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Again, I find no problem with these texts as aligned with the evidence I have presented regarding the true Red Sea Crossing. If the wilderness of Shur is a MUCH LARGER desert area than what the map shows, or if it is in a totally different location than the "scholars" think it is, then it is certainly possible for all of these texts to fit in with Jabel-el Lawz being the true Mount Sinai. We need something more than just blind reliance on maps, or upon the scholars who teach from them. We need to have a mindset that says "let's look at ALL the evidence before jumping to conclusions."

Shalom,

Glenn

PS: If Columbus relied COMPLETELY AND WITHOUT RESERVATION on the maps printed 500 years ago, would he have ever sailed west in search of India? Didn't he know that map makers clearly indicated on the map that he could fall off the edge of the world? (It's a good thing they found land before the crew decided to "mutiny"!!)

Shalom,

Glenn

===================

THE RED SEA CROSSING SITE
June 1, 1997
Moses' choice.
Moses' adoption as "the son of Pharaoh's daughter" qualified him to the throne of Egypt in his fortieth year.
Yet his positive volition aroused his sympathies for his people, the enslaved race of the Hebrews, and he began to plan their promised deliverance (Ex.2:11; Act.7:23; Heb.11:24-26).
One day he avenged the mistreatment of one of his brethren by killing an Egyptian who was beating a Hebrew (Ex.2:11,12; Act.7:24,25).
Moses was forced to flee Egypt, and he went into exile in Midian (Ex.2:15; Act.7:29).
Where is Midian?
Midian was the territory of the Midianites, located just east of the Gulf of Aqaba in Arabia (see map).
The Midianites (Arabians) were descendants of Abraham through Keturah (Gen.25:2).
By fleeing to Midian, Moses was out of harm's way, as the Egyptians were in control of the Sinai Peninsula (they had forts and temples, and inscriptions tell of their mining operations there).
Forty years later, God appeared to Moses in the burning bush and told him that he was to bring Israel out of Egypt to the very mountain where he was tending his sheep (Ex.3:2,12 "...when you have brought the people out of Egypt, you shall worship God at this mountain"; Act.7:30).
Notice that Moses was told to lead his people back to a mountain in Midian, to the mountain where God first spoke to him.
This mountain is called Horeb (Ex.3:1; 33:6; 1Kgs.19:8, etc.) and Sinai (Ex.16:1; 19:1,2, etc.).
This mountain is not, therefore, located in the so-called Sinai peninsula, but in Arabia (see Gal.4:25; cp. 1:17).
Sinai is the most misplaced mountain in history, and the traditional Mt. Sinai (with its St. Catherine's monastery) is a phony tourist attraction!
The "Sinai Peninsula" is also a misnomer.
The true Mt. Sinai is the 8,000 foot Jebel al Lawz (Mountain of the Law) located near the eastern shore of Aqaba in Midian/Saudi Arabia.
It was a safe area for Moses to go, as there is no evidence of Egyptian occupation there.

Since the Biblical Mt. Sinai lies in Saudi Arabia, then the crossing through the sea had to be across the Gulf of Aqaba arm of the Red Sea, and not the Gulf of Suez, as commonly thought.
Route of the Exodus.
Where was Rameses, from which Israel left (Ex.12:37 "Now the sons of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand men on foot, aside from children")?
There was a city with this name (Ex.1:11).
Rameses was also the name of the Delta region, the land given to Joseph's family to live in (Gen.47:11).
A portion of this region (eastern delta) was called Goshen (Gen.47:27).
When it came time for the Exodus, the slaves left their homes in Rameses (Goshen) and proceeded to leave Egypt "proper".
Where was Succoth (see Ex.12:37; 13:20; Num.33:5,6)?
"Succoth" was the assembly area for this tremendously large group of people and their livestock.
Egyptian documents mention a border station known as "Tjeku" and "Tharu" located along the ancient Suez Canal which connected the Gulf of Suez and the marsh lakes with the Mediterranean Sea (this canal is known to have existed based on satellite photos).
At the border, the point where one would leave Egypt proper and go into the Sinai desert, there was a fort.
In this area was a line of fortifications intended to keep the Bedouins out of Egypt.
The great fortress Tharu was in this area, and is often mentioned as the assembly point of the great military expeditions to the north.
Here, Moses organized this great mass of people and their possessions (carts and animals) for the march out of Egypt.
This was no simple task, and Moses used his organizational skills to organize the hundreds of thousands, as he had military expeditions (Act.7:22 "And Moses was educated in all the learningof the Egyptians, and he was a man of power in words and
deeds").
Here, at Succoth/Tharu, he organized the largest army he had ever assembled (it took some time).
The result is stated in Ex.13:18: "Hence God led the people around by the way of the wilderness to the Red Sea; and the sons of Israel went up in martial array from the land of Egypt".
The term "went up in martial array" is the Qal.pass.pt.m.p. of the verb vmux; (chamush) and means "to arrange in multiples of five", and refers to a well organized march, and not a mob of fleeing refugees.
Where is the next location, Etham (Ex.13:20 "Then they set out from Succoth and camped in Etham on the edge of the wilderness")?
God prohibited Israel from taking the direct route to Canaan, which was the coastal "northern route", called "the way of the land of the Philistines" in Ex.13:17.
Rather, they were told to take the "southern route" to Canaan, called "the way of the wilderness to the Red Sea" in Ex.13:18.
This was the longer route, but was a well traveled caravan and military road running almost due east through the northern Sinai Peninsula.
Etham was a region in the mid to northern edge of the Gulf of Aqaba.
And how do we know this? Because they were in Etham BEFORE they crossed the Red Sea (Ex.13:20), and were in it AFTER they crossed the Red Sea (Num.33:6-8).
The "detour".
Israel did not continue on the highway to Canaan, but were told by God "to turn back (simple verb bWv, shub, "to turn/turn back") and camp before Pi-hahiroth, between Midol and the sea" (Ex.14:1,2).
This maneuver was a ploy to lure Pharaoh into God's trap (Ex.14:3).
Pharaoh figured that the Hebrews were "wandering aimlessly" (Niphil.pt.m.p. %WB, bukh, be disoriented) in the wilderness, and considering the path they were committed to, they were "shut in" (Qal.pf.3m.s. rg:s', sagar, close/shut up).
This latter verb suggests that the surrounding terrain hemmed in the Jews, and that is exactly the case, as the new proposed crossing site will demonstrate.
What we have studied thus far and what we will see demands a crossing site somewhere along the shore of the Gulf of Aqaba.
There is a beach of tremendous size on the eastern Gulf of Aqaba at Nuweiba (noted on modern maps) and the only passage to it is through an eighteen mile long wadi (dried riverbed) system.

From their previous camping site (on the edge of the region called Etham) they turned south and entered a wadi (Wadi Watir) that must have seemed like an endless maze to them, with rugged mountains on their left and on their right.
The only path out of that wadi empties onto an enormous beach (it can be clearly seen on satellite maps) that could accommodate two million people (7km X 3km).
On the north end of the beach are the remains of an Egyptian fortress, which is no doubt Pi-hahiroth ("House of the goddess Hathor").
Midgol may be a reference to a watchtower atop one of those mountains (it is documented that they flashed messages from tower to tower using reflected light; this is how Pharaoh was kept abreast of their movements), or it may refer to a specific mountain (the noun means "tower" or "fortress").
On the opposite shore (eight miles), in Saudi Arabia, precisely across from where they camped by the sea, is another ancient structure which may be a Midianite fortress dedicated to Baal, called Baal-zephon (see Ex.14:2).
The phrase "opposite it" seems to mean in respect to that body of water (cp. Deut.32:49 "the land of Moab opposite Jericho").
Of course, Moses knew this country like the back of his hand.
What is the Red Sea (Yam Suph)?
The Red Sea is quite large, extending from Ethiopia and Yemen in the south, and it separates northern Africa from Arabia.
At its northern end, it splits into two arms: the Gulf of Suez and the Gulf of Aqaba.
A verse that unequivocally demonstrates that the Aqaba branch is a part of the greater "Red Sea" is 1Kgs.9:26: "King Solomon also built a fleet of ships in Ezion-geber, which is near Eloth on the shore of theRed Sea, in the land of Edom".
Scripture indicates that the water they crossed was DEEP (Isa.43:16,17 "a path through the mighty waters"; 51:10 "Was it not You who dried up the sea, the waters of thegreat deep; Who made the depths of the sea a pathway for the redeemed to cross over?"; 63:11-13a "Who led them through the depths?"; Ps.77:19,20 "Your way was in the sea, and Your paths in the mighty waters, and Your footprints may not be known. You did lead Your people like a flock, by the hand of Moses and Aaron"; Ex.15:10 "You did blow with Your wind, the sea covered them; they sank like lead in the mighty waters").
The crossing place was not a shallow "sea of reeds", as liberals and conservatives have for so long affirmed!
From speculation that the Israelites had crossed the Gulf of Suez, names from the Exodus account were inserted on maps (Bible) by guesswork.
Charts show the Gulf of Aqaba to be a trench/canyon 5,000 feet deep.
The western shoreline drops steeply underwater into this canyon at a slope of 45 degrees, which is too steep for people to cross over.
However, at the precise location of the Nuweiba beach, the deep trench is spanned by an underwater land bridge (diving forays have confirmed this fact).
The pathway through the sea has been estimated at 900 meters (about 2,700 feet) in width.
And from the Egyptian shore, it slopes at a gentle angle of 6 degrees underwater until midway across the sea it is some 300 meters (1,000 feet) below the surface of the sea. It then gradually rises to the opposite shore.
Midway across on each side, the WALLS OF WATER were up to 1,000 feet high. Skyscraper height!

The physical requirements of the crossing site.
A suitably large staging area is met by the Nuweiba beach.
The way to the site was through the Wadi Watir, which could accommodate the multitude and Pharaoh's pursuing army (the wadi is now a hardtop road).
The topography "shut them in" (Ex.14:3), as there were mountains all around them.
The undersea land bridge is both wide enough (about 2,500 ft.) and gentle enough in slope to accommodate all parties.
Some other questions answered.
Wasn't the site too far from Egypt?
Answer: The distance from the Suez Canal to Nuweiba is about 210 miles, which is not unreasonable considering Ex.13:21: "And Yahweh was going before them in a pillar of cloud by day to lead them on the way, and in a pillar of fire by night to give them light, that they might travel by day and by night".
The Hebrews were in excellent physical condition considering their life in Egypt under forced labor.
Israel had a significant head start on Pharaoh's army.
Illustration: In 1967, Moshe Dyan marched his troops from this very spot, Nuweiba, to Suez in just 6 days, camping at night.
Why this detour?
Answer: To draw Pharaoh into God's trap (Ex.14:3).
Answer: To bring glory to Yahweh (Ex.14:4).
Answer: To bring Israel to the mountain where Moses was called (Ex.3:12).
How long to cross?
Rabbi Sherwin Wine, founder of Humanistic Judaism, claimed on TV that the event never happened. "It would have taken them weeks to cross," he sneered.
Crunching the numbers: Width of underwater bridge at 2,500 feet. Allowing 5 feet per person, side to side, would give space for 500 persons abreast. With the length of the crossing at 8 miles, and travelling 2.5 miles per hour, it would take 3 hours for the front row to cross over. Allowing for half of these persons to be driving an animal and a quarter of the people to be in possession of a cart would require a procession of 9.6 miles, or 4 hours walking time behind the front row. The final row would leave the western shore some 4 hours after the departure of the front row, and would take 3 to 4 hours to make the crossing.
Result: Total crossing time for 2 million people, plus animals and carts, would be 7 hours (even if these figures require some adjustment, it is safe to say that the time needed to make the crossing was by no means excessive. One eight hour day would do nicely).

You can't be in a place and complain that you left it.

Proof positive that Israel was NOT IN EGYPT before they crossed.
The people's panic induced words to Moses should settle the issue once and for all (Ex.14:11 "Is it because there were no graves IN EGYPT that you have taken us away to die in the wilderness? Why have you dealt with us in this way, bringing us OUT OF EGYPT; and vs.12 "Is this not the word that we spoke to you IN EGYPT, saying, 'Leave us alone that we may serve the Egyptians'? For it would have been better for us to serve the Egyptians than to die IN THE WILDERNESS").
How in the name of all that is logical could they have thus spoken, if they were on the western shore of the Suez, which has always been considered the western border of Egypt?
Details related to the Egyptian pursuit.
Pertinent Scripture is Ex.14:6-9,23.
Pharaoh (Koncharis) "made his chariot ready".
He "took his people with him" is probably a reference to members of the priesthood.
"He took six hundred select chariots", which were not enough to be a division, but were probably ceremonial chariots that "his people", the priests, rode in.
He took"...all the other chariots of Egypt", which is a reference to war chariots.
"...with officers over all of them" is a reference to his division commanders.
Cavalry ("his horsemen") and infantry ("his army") were also involved, according to Ex.14:9 (Egyptian armies never marched without its backbone, the infantry).
Estimates range from 20,000 (four divisions) to 250,000 men (Josephus).
The priesthood and the military linked.
The divisions of the army were named after the principal gods of Egypt.
Elaborate ceremonies were conducted whenever the army departed for war, asking the gods for victory.
Military victories that ensued were directly attributed to the favors of the gods.
Booty from the war was then dedicated to the priesthood and temples of the gods.
Priests would accompany the army to the battlefield.
If the Egyptian army ever needed supernatural intervention by the hands of their gods, it was on this occasion.
Pharaoh's watery defeat was yet a final slap at "the gods of Egypt" (cp. Ex.12:12).
Pharaoh's pursuit was held up long enough for the Hebrews to cross the eight mile canyon (Ex.14:19,20).
The cloud theophany put darkness in the advance of the Egyptian forces in the Wadi Watir.
The cloud supplied "light at night" (Ex.14:20) for Israel so they could see while God was parting the Red Sea "by a strong east wind" that blew "all night" (cp. Ex.14:21).
The moment of truth came for the Egyptians when God supernaturally removed the wheels of the chariots, producing mass confusion and panic among the Egyptians (Ex.14:24,25).

No Tomb for Pharaoh

Pharaoh Koncharis and his entire army drowned; not one man lived to tell about it (Ps.106:11 "And the waters covered their adversaries; Not one of them was left"; 136:15a "But He overthrew Pharaohand his army in the Red Sea").
Pharaoh led the charge, as was the style of the Pharaohs.
This fact eliminates all proposed candidates for the Pharaoh of the Exodus, such as the Pharaohs of the 18th Dynasty (Thutmose III and his successor, Amenhotep II) and the 19th Dynasty Pharaoh (Rameses II).
Their faces from their mummified remains can be seen on pg. 37 of Courville's The Exodus Problem and its Ramifications (Vol.1).
No mummy or coffin has been found for the last Pharaoh of the 13th Dynasty, Koncharis.
He was followed by the Hyksos (Amalekite) Pharaohs, who ruled Egypt until the reign of King Saul (the Egyptian "dark age").

What's Down There

Physical evidence on the floor of the Red Sea has been reported!!!
Who? Ron Wyatt and his sons had been diving along other parts of the Red Sea (where others had looked to no avail for years), and began the search of Nuweiba (based on clues found in the book of Exodus), and in the first half hour found a chariot wheel in eighty feet of water.
What?
They found chariot wheels strewn all across the seabed.

Then they found chariot remains covered with coral.

They found chariot cabs, some with the wheels on their axles and some off.

They found several 6-spoked wheels, as well as an 8-spoked wheel.
And finally Ron found a gold chariot wheel, which is not covered in coral, but was in fragile condition due to the fact that the wood under the gold had decomposed (at last report it is still there, waiting to be carefully removed; it is located near the rear of Pharaoh's army and its ornamental nature suggests it might have been a priestly chariot, one of the "600 choice chariots"?).

He reports finding skeletal remains (hip bone, skulls, even a horse's hoof).
Ron reports finding a Phoenician style column (which the authorities have since moved across the road and set in concrete) lying at the southern end of the beach, partially in water with its inscriptions eroded (or chiseled) away.
This is identical to the one on the opposite shore, except this one had the inscriptions (Archaic Hebrew) intact.
It contained the words: Mizraim; Solomon; Edom; death; Pharaoh; Moses; and Yahweh.
It may be deduced that Solomon had erected the markers in honor of Yahweh (like our "the Chisolm trail crossed here").
The source.
Jonathan Gray (Englishman) on his web page.
Address: http://www.serveonline.com/redsea.html and redsea2.html and sinaistory.html (it will take a while to load this due to all the images).
He also has a video for sale.

None of the above works if there is no evidence on the other side.

There is!
Will the Real Mt. Sinai Please Stand Up?

Problems with the traditional site.
The traditional site is unsuitable for so large a group of people to camp around.
Von Haven, a member of the Danish Expedition of 1761-1767, quickly realized the impossibility of the site: "I have observed earlier that we could not possibly be at Mount Sinai. The monastery was situated in a NARROW VALLEY, which was not even large enough for a medium sized army to be able to camp in, let alone the 600,000 men that Moses had with him, who, together with their wives and children, must have come to over 3,000,000" (Arabia Felix: The Danish Expedition of 1761-1767, by Thorkild Hansen, Harper & Ros, NY, 1964, pg. 181).
Since the Red Sea crossing was not carried out FROM EGYPT, but AFTER they left Egypt, this completely rules out the traditional site.
How the traditional site was picked makes it suspect.
The Roman emperor Constantine (c. 280-337AD) sent his mother, Queen Helena, to the Middle East in search of holy sites.
Mount Sinai was one such location she visited and claimed was the mountain from which the Law was given.
Two hundred years later a monastery was built there, the present Monastery of St. Catherine.
Visions are no substitute for examination of the Biblical text.
Much exploration has been carried out in the immediate vicinity, but no trace of Israelite presence has ever been discovered (graves, altars, etc.).
Hence, the traditional Mt. Sinai (Jebel Musa) is a fake tourist site, with the REAL Mt. Sinai lying across Aqaba in the land of ancient Midian.
Clues pointing to the true Mt. Sinai.
Mount Sinai is closely connected with the land of Midian in the Bible.
Moses fled FROM EGYPT to MIDIAN (Ex.2:15).
He was at Mt. Sinai/Horeb when he received the call from the burning bush (Ex.3:1ff).
God told him that the ultimate sign that God was with him would be when he returned to this very same mountain with the Hebrew people (Ex.3:12).
It was the mountain to which he returned with over two million people (Ex.18:5; 19:1,2).
Galatians 4:25 says it (Sinai) was in Arabia.
The name "Horeb" survives, as a detailed map of the area has a Wadi Horeb (or Hurab) in the foothill region of Jebel el Lawz ("Mountain of the Law").
Local traditions of Moses and Jethro persist in the area.
"From here my guide and I climbed up the cliff to visit the 'circles of Jethro' on the summit of Musalla ridge, from which we climbed down quite easily to our camp on the far side...A cairn marked the spot where Jethro is supposed to have prayed, and all around it are numerous circles" (H. St. John Philby, The Land of Midian, pg. 222).
Jebel el Lawz: the perfect candidate.
Right location: On a map, the mountain is located slightly south and east of the Nuweiba crossing site.
Right size: At 8,000 feet, it is the tallest mountain in the region.
Right surrounding terrain: Aerial photography shows that the mountain is an almost semicircular shape, enclosing an area of 5,000 acres which is large enough to accommodate two million people and their herds.
Blackened top: The entire top of the mountain is blackened as if charred by some tremendous heat.
This is the only summit so marked.
Is this evidence of God's presence on the mountain (Ex.19:18)?
Elijah's cave: There is one cave on the mountain (see 1Kgs.19:8).
An Ancient Brook: On the face of the mountain there extends an ancient stream, which satisfies the requirement of Deut.9:21 (see).
Evidences of Israelite presence include:
The barrier (so that the people would not approach the mountain): At the foot of the mountain are 18-foot diameter columns extending along a north-south line (these cannot be readily seen, as they are covered with 3,400 years of dirt; cf. Ex.19:12).
The altar of the golden calf: About a mile from the base of the mountain, just outside the holy precinct (area inside the boundary markers), is an ancient altar (6' X 4') with twelve petroglyphs of cows and bulls of Egyptian style, representing the gods Hathor and Apis (Ron Wyatt confirmed their origin by asking an archaeologist from the university of Riyadh. He also found evidence of gold in the vicinity of the altar).
The twelve pillars (matstebah denotes a one-piece, standing stone pillar) of Ex.24:4: In the holy precinct, to the far right (looking westward), there is a semicircle of twelve large granite boulders.
White marble shrine: This structure was round, made of pure white polished marble, and had a domed top. The speculation is that Solomon had the shrine built. Ron Wyatt found a piece of white marble with an inscription on it in archaic Hebrew, which he buried when the Saudis arrested him and confiscated all his physical evidence.
A most remarkable monument: The rock in Horeb (Ex.17:6).
Tracking Israel's route from the Red Sea to Sinai in Arabia, there is a place that perfectly fits the description of Rephidim.
Here in the wilderness of Sin(ai), Moses was told to go to "the rock in Horeb" (Ex.16:1; 17:1,6; Num.33:11; undoubtedly, a well-known, prominent rock).
On the western side of the Horeb range (the encampment at Sinai was on the east), in the midst of the plain (satisfying the terrain requirements for the battle in Ex.17:8ff), is a hill about 110 feet high.
Atop this hill towers a mighty rock, about the size of a five-story building; the total height of this formation is about sixteen stories.
This rock is split through the middle, and the split is large enough for a man to walk through!
Here is the remarkable part: Water erosion channels come from the TOP of the hill, OUT OF THE ROCK!
There is evidence that numerous streams came forth in several directions.
Today there is no water in the region anywhere.

Erosion channels continue out into the plain below to attest to this miracle.
About 200 meters from this rock is another altar, similar to the one in the holy precinct, which satisfies Ex.17:15.

BE ENCOURAGED!!

http://www.versebyverse.org/doctrine/redsea.html

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It is truly amazing when we can actually see where this magnificent event took place, it is truly inspirational!