So did Shaul( Paul) also understand the same, or he too contradicts himself( Rom. 10:9-13). Very good Gary, Yahweh really is the deliverer and saviour.

John Cordaro, you stated, "" posted 07-31-2005 03:36 PM
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Eliyahc wrote;
[Quote]Question 1.then: How can both names mean the same for salvation, but then the name of "Yahushua ", which means " Yahweh is salvation" or " Salvation of Yahweh" but cannot be, and mean the name of " Yahweh-shua"= Yahweh Saviour?[/Quote/\]

The Savior's name MEANS "Yahweh is salvation" or "Salvation of Yahweh", but the Savior's name is NOT "Yahwehshua", it is Yahushua. "Jehu" MEANS "He is Yahweh" or "Yahweh is He", but Jehu's name is NOT "Yahwehu", it is "Yahu".
You can't just extend a person's name to suit your doctrinal beliefs. If you do that, then to be consistent you need to say "Yahwehoakim", "Yahwehosaphat", etc. There is no textual evidence to support any of these long variations.

What is the point of this Eliyahc? Are you trying to say that because you believe the Messiah's name is "Yahwehshua" that he is then "Yahweh"? If so, then is "Jehu" Yahweh?

Shalom,
John Unquote.
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John, you go through many scriptures that prove " Yahweh our El " IS ONE, ( as your article on your website)then, you turn around and DENY your own words( think about it ?) as you did in a previous post.

You asked, ""What is the point of this Eliyahc? Are you trying to say that because you believe the Messiah's name is "Yahwehshua" that he is then "Yahweh"? If so, then is "Jehu" Yahweh"" unquote.

No, " Jehu " NEVER claimed to be the " SAVIOUR " either, but Messiah DID, as BOTH Peter( Acts 2:21) quoted from ( Joel 2:32), and equated BOTH to mean the ONE AND THE SAME FOR SALVATION( Acts 4:10-12), and so did Paul in ( Rom.10:9-13), or otherwise BOTH men contradict themselves by saying this.

I'm not saying that the Messiah's name is not Yahushua, as you seem to think John.

I think that " Eliyah the operator of this forum " has a very good article concerning this, IF you have not read it, I think you should, it is called..

"" Why we must believe Yahushua is the Messiah " at http://www.eliyah.com/themessiah.html

Otherwise, answer ALL my previous questions asked with scriptures John ?

Elyah C.

1. Literal personal name (letters/sounds).
example - "I am YHWH, that is My Name."
2. Person's character, reputation, authority, etc.
example - "I have...made thee a name like the name of the great men..."
3. By metonymy, the person himself.
example - "the name of the Elohim of Jacob defend thee"

Acts 4:10-12 has examples of both #2 & #3 being misinterpreted as #1.

quote:

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10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Yahshua the Messiah of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom Elohim raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

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This verse also proves that Yahshua (the Son) and Elohim (the Father) are 2 distinct Persons.

In v12, "name", by metonymy means the Person Himself, i.e. Yahshua. A literal string of letters or a sound doesn't save us.

Of course, definition #1 is so closely tied to the other usages, that it's easy to mistake it for the primary usage. But even if you insist that "name" in both of these verses is #1, i would resort to what i have said before:
The Father and Son are NOT the same Person; they simply have the same Name - "YHWH", since the Father gave the Son the Name that is above every Name, that is His own Family Name, "YHWH".

I know that some disagree or don't understand with this, but it's easy for me to see, because i have the same name as my human father, as do many people.

I apologize for not responding sooner to you posts, I often get lost in the ocean of posts that are written on this forum. So, in answer to your question...

The reason I disagree with the form "Yahshua" is because there is no such name in Hebrew or Hebrew Scriptures. The letter hey in the middle of this word must be vocalized according to Hebrew grammar, and thus the name "Yahushua" would be a better choice. However, the name "Yahushua" is not found in the Hebrew Scriptures either, but the name Yehoshua is. People often state that the masoretes "tweeked" the vowels of the name Yahu to Yeho, but no evidence is ever given of this.

The name Yehoshua (Numbers 13:16) had a contracted form - Yeshua (Nehemiah 8:17) spelled in Hebrew = yod, shin, waw, ayin. The name Yeshua technically means "He who saves" or "salvation". However, realizing that the name Yeshua stems from the name Yehoshua which means "YHWH saves" we can realize that even in the name Yeshua the salvation is from YHWH. These facts concerning the name Yehoshua also lead me to wonder about the pronunciation of the tetragrammaton. I know some who use Yehowah claiming that the vowel points in the masoretic text are not those of the word "adonai" but rather the original vowels of the tetragrammaton. This seems to make sense seeing that many if not all of the names which mean "YHWH (something)" always begin with a "Yeho". Yehoshapat, Yehoshua, Yehochanan, Yehoiada, etc. The ending form of names with a "yod, hey" in them always end in YAH. I'm not saying this is the way it is, just giving out information I've gleaned from studying.

A couple of good studies regarding the Messiah's name are:

• The Messiah's Name Yeshua or Yahshua? {by Daniel Botkin}
• The Name of Messiah {by Larry Acheson}
  

You may can do a google search on these to find them.

Your friend,

Matthew Janzen

Then, there is the literal translated meaning of Messiah's name, as I quote

""Mt.1:21 also tells us the meaning of the name. For he shall save his people from their sins" gives the name the meaning of Salvation, which is what "shua" means in Hebrew. "Yah" is the short form of the Heavenly Father's name as seen in Ps.68:4 and the word HalleluYah. Therefore, the combination of Yah and shua (Yahshua) give the entire name the meaning of "Yahweh saves," "Yahweh is salvation," or "Salvation of Yahweh." "".

What is it, that people seem to misunderstand me as I pointed out 2 texts that will contradict( Joel 2:32; Acts 2:21), if Peter did not understand " that BOTH names mean the same for salvation"( Acts 4:10-12) ?

This is the ONLY WAY to make these two texts( Acts 2:21) and ( Acts 4:10-12) to harmonize, without them contradicting each other.

But, Matthew, You still never commented concerning....

""I( Elyah C.) agree with the statement, that Messiah's Higher given name is YAHWEH, and that is the name to be baptized in.

Here are the reasons of scripture. In ( Matt.28:19), "" ... baptizing them in the NAME( singular form of YAH) of THE FATHER( YHWH= YAHWEH), and of THE SON, and of THE HOLY SPIRIT.""

Again, if BOTH names do not mean the SAME for salvation and baptism, then the text ABOVE also contradicts other scriptures( which I try to harmonize these texts, not pit them against each other)such as ( Acts 2:38; Acts 10:48; Acts 19:5), then, in ( Acts 22:16) they were admosished to " CALL ON THE NAME", and this would indicate referring to ( Joel 2:32; Acts 2:21).

What is Your response concerning the above ? Would that not be true ?
Thanks.

Shalom, Eliyah C.

You stated and admitted the following below.

""The Father and Son are NOT the same Person; they simply have the same Name - "YHWH", since the Father gave the Son the Name that is above every Name, that is His own Family Name, "YHWH".

I'm not saying that the Father and Son are the same Person, but you did admit( which is true)that they simply have the same Name - "YHWH", since the Father gave the Son the Name that is above every Name, that is His own Family Name, "YHWH".

Whoopee, he has it, and that is the point of my post, and if Peter( Acts 2:21;Acts 4:10-12) and Paul( Rom.10:9-13) did not understand this to be so, then, they contradicted themselves.

You wrote:

quote:

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I agree with you to a point, as well as James H.Strongs of " Yehowshua ", however, James H.Strongs also points out concerning Hebrew number 3091, that it is from 3068,3467, then he points out that " the contracted short form "( first used in Exo.15:2) of " YAHH "( 3050)THE SAME AS 3068, AND MEAN THE SAME, THE SACRED NAME.

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James Strong is just giving the name as it appears in the Hebrew Masoretic text. The name is vowel pointed to be said as Yehoshua, and as far as I know, never Yahushua. Sure, the contracted form of the sacred name is pointed out to be Yah. This name (Psalms 68:4, etc.) is in Scripture some 49 times, and is also found to be on the end of names such as Yeremyah, Yeshayah, Eliyah, etc. This is how it is vowel pointed when in its contracted form and when it is on the end of names, but it is not vowel pointed this way when used at the beginning of names. It is rather vowel pointed as "Yeho".

You also quoted:

quote:

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Mt.1:21 also tells us the meaning of the name. For he shall save his people from their sins" gives the name the meaning of Salvation, which is what "shua" means in Hebrew. "Yah" is the short form of the Heavenly Father's name as seen in Ps.68:4 and the word HalleluYah. Therefore, the combination of Yah and shua (Yahshua) give the entire name the meaning of "Yahweh saves," "Yahweh is salvation," or "Salvation of Yahweh.

---

The meaning Matthew 1:21 gives is technically more appropriate with the name Yeshua, since that name literally means "He will save". I realize that the salvation ultimately comes from YHWH, and that Yeshua stems from Yehoshua which means YHWH is salvation. However, the word "shua" by itself in Hebrew does not mean salvation, but rather wealth. To just arbitrarily place the word "shua" with the word "Yah" is not proper since such a name does not exist in the Hebrew language. More than likely, this name came from people, who although noble in their case of wanting to restore truth, did not understand the Hebrew language.

You also wrote:

quote:

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I( Elyah C.) agree with the statement, that Messiah's Higher given name is YAHWEH, and that is the name to be baptized in.

Here are the reasons of scripture. In ( Matt.28:19), "" ... baptizing them in the NAME( singular form of YAH) of THE FATHER( YHWH= YAHWEH), and of THE SON, and of THE HOLY SPIRIT.

---

I thought I responded to this in a previous post. I believe the highest name in the universe is the tetragrammaton (Ps. 138:2; Neh. 9:5). I believe the Father gave this name to his unique Son (Mt. 28:19) and is the name we are to call upon to have salvation (Joel 2:32; Acts 2:21).

I, like Chuck, can understand that a Father quite often gives his name to his first or only begotten son. Likewise, I can also understand how that same son can also have his own seperate name to distinguish him from his father. My Name is Erich Matthew Janzen, whereas one of my sons names is Erich Elijah Janzen. Technicaly we are both Erich Janzen. To write a check in the name of the father (me) and the son (him) would be to write it in the name Erich Janzen. My son still though, has his own name (Elijah) in order to distinguish him from me. This would have to be the case with YHWH's son, seeing the texts of the NT refer to him as Yeshua.

Your friend,

Matthew Janzen

Here is some information about this subject:
http://www.thenazareneway.com/yeshua_jesus_real_name.htm

quote:

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Yeshua is the original Aramaic proper name for Jesus the Nazarene, who lived from about 6 B.C.E. to 27 C.E. (A.D.) The word "Jesus" is actually a mis-transliteration of a Greek mis-transliteration. The Emperor Constatine even mistook Jesus for Apollo, the son of the Greek god Zeus. In Hebrew Yeshua means Salvation while the name Jesus has no intrinsic meaning in English whatsoever.

It is most proper to call Him Yeshua. It was indeed his proper name, given to him by his parents, and only in Hebrew does this name have any meaning. In Hebrew Yeshua means both "Salvation," and the concatenated form of Yahoshua, is "Lord who is Salvation." The name Jesus has no intrinsic meaning in English whatsoever.

There are many Yeshuas that we read about in Biblical text and many are confused with the Yeshua who would later become the "Christ". The name Yeshua appears 29 times in the Tanach. Yehoshua (Joshua) of Nun is called Yeshua in Nechemyah (Nehemiah) 8:17. Yeshua is the name of the Cohain HaGadol (the high priest) in the time of Zerubavel in Ezra 3:2. It is the name of a Levite under King Hizkiyah (Hezekiah) in 2 Chronicles 31:15. There is even a city called Yeshua in the negev of Yehudah in Nechemyah11:26. Yeshua is also a shortened version of the word Yehoshua much like Bill is for William.

There are 7 other Yeshuas (Jesuses) in the Brit Chadashah. There is Elymas bar Yeshua in Acts 13:6. There is an ancestor of Yeshua HaMashiach: the son of Eliezar, the father of Er in Luke 3:29. In Rav Shaul's letter to the Colossians in chapter 4, verse 11, there is a Justus called Yeshua a fellow worker of Shaul. Josephus, the famous Jewish historian mentions 20 different Yeshuas (Jesuses), 10 of which are contemporary with Yeshua HaMashiach. All together, at least 50 Yeshuas from his time plus about 9 in the Tanach have been revealed from Biblical text and other literary sources.

Mis-translating the Mis-translation

Yeshua is a Hebrew name which has been transliterated into Greek as Iesous (IhsouV: pronounced "ee-ay-SUS"). The English "Jesus" comes from the Latin transliteration of the Greek name into the Latin Iesus. Now Greek has no "y" sound, but the Latin "i" is both an "i" and a "j" (i.e., it can have a consonantal force in front of other vowels), the latter of which is properly pronounced like the English "y" (which explains the German Jesu, "YAY-su")That is why we spell Jesus as we do, taking it straight from Latin, but we pronounce the name with a soft "j" sound because that is what we do in English with the consonantal "j".

The first letter in the name Yeshua ("Jesus") is the yod. Yod represents the "Y" sound in Hebrew. Many names in the Bible that begin with yod are mispronounced by English speakers because the yod in these names was transliterated in English Bibles with the letter "J" rather than "Y". This came about because in early English the letter "J" was pronounced the way we pronounce "Y" today. All proper names in the Old Testament were transliterated into English according to their Hebrew pronunciation via the Latin, but when English pronunciation shifted to what we know today, these transliterations were not altered. Thus, such Hebrew place names as ye-ru-sha-LA-yim, ye-ri-HO, and yar-DEN have become known to us as Jerusalem, Jericho, and Jordan; and Hebrew personal names such as yo-NA, yi-SHAI, and ye-SHU-a have become known to us as Jonah, Jesse, and Jesus. To further complicate matters, there was no letter "J" in the old English alphabet and the letter "I" was often used in its place. Often in early texts of the time, Jesus or Jerusalem would be spelled Iesus or Ierusalem.

The second sound in Yeshua's name is called tse-RE, and is pronounced almost like the letter "e" in the word "net". Just as the "Y" sound of the first letter is mispronounced in today's English, so too the first vowel sound in "Jesus". Before the Hebrew name "Yeshua" was transliterated into English, it was first transliterated into Greek. There was no difficulty in transliterating the tse-RE sound since the ancient Greek language had an equivalent letter which represented this sound. And there was no real difficulty in transcribing this same first vowel into English. The translators of the earliest versions of the English Bible transliterated the tse-RE in Yeshua with an "e". Unfortunately, later English speakers guessed wrongly that this "e" should be pronounced as in "me," and thus the first syllable of the English version of Yeshua came to be pronounced "Jee" instead of "Yeh". It is this pronunciation which produced such euphemistic profanities as "Gee" and "Geez".

Since Yeshua is spelled "Jeshua" and not "Jesus" in most English versions of the Old Testament (for example in Ezra 2:2 and 2 Chronicles 31:15), one easily gets the impression that the name is never mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures. Yet 'Yeshua' appears there twenty-nine times, and is the name of at least five different persons and one village in the southern part of Yehudah ("Judah").

In contrast to the early biblical period, there were relatively few different names in use among the Jewish population of the Land of Israel at the time of the Second Temple. The name Yeshua was one of the most common male names in that period, tied with Eleazer for fifth place behind Simon, Joseph, Judah, and John. Nearly one out of ten persons known from the period was named Yeshua.

The first sound of the second syllable of Yeshua is the "sh" sound. It is represented by the Hebrew letter shin. However Greek, like many other languages, has no "sh" sound. Instead, the closest approximation, the Greek sigma, was used when transcribing "Yeshua" as "Iesus". Translators of English versions of the New Testament transliterated the Greek transcription of a Hebrew name, instead of returning to the original Hebrew. This was doubly unfortunate, first because the "sh" sound exists in English, and second because in English the "s" sound can shift to the "z" sound, which is what happened in the case of the pronunciation of "Jesus".

The fourth sound one hears in the name Yeshua is the "u" sound, as in the word "true". Like the first three sounds, this also has come to be mispronounced but in this case it is not the fault of the translators. They transcribed this sound accurately, but English is not a phonetic language and "u" can be pronounced in more than one way. At some point the "u" in "Jesus" came to be pronounced as in "cut," and so we say "Jee-zuhs."

The "a" sound, as in the word "father," is the fifth sound in Jesus' name. It is followed by a guttural produced by contracting the lower throat muscles and retracting the tongue root- an unfamiliar task for English speakers. In an exception to the rule, the vowel sound "a" associated with the last letter "ayin" (the guttural) is pronounced before it, not after. While there is no equivalent in English or any other Indo-European language, it is somewhat similar to the last sound in the name of the composer, "Bach." In this position it is almost inaudible to the western ear. Some Israelis pronounce this last sound and some don't, depending on what part of the dispersion their families returned from. The Hebrew Language Academy, guardian of the purity of the language, has ruled that it should be sounded, and Israeli radio and television announcers are required to pronounce it correctly. There was no letter to represent them, and so these fifth and sixth sounds were dropped from the Greek transcription of "Yeshua," -the transcription from which the English "Jesus" is derived.

So where did the final "s" of "Jesus" come from? Masculine names in Greek ordinarily end with a consonant, usually with an "s" sound, and less frequently with an "n" or "r" sound. In the case of "Iesus," the Greeks added a sigma, the "s" sound, to close the word. The same is true for the names Nicodemus, Judas, Lazarus, and others.

English speakers make one final change from the original pronunciation of Jesus' name. English places the accent on "Je," rather than on "sus." For this reason, the "u" has been shortened in its English pronunciation to "uh."

In Jesus' Name

Today's tradition of pronouncing His completely hellenized name as "Jesus" has indeed obscured His true name, "Yeshua," and has shifted its perceived meaning much like most of His original teachings.

As with all things Essene however, there is always the exoteric and the esoteric philosophies and functions. That is, those ideas and teachings suitable to be imparted to the public, and those designed for or understood by the specially initiated alone.

Even His name, it would seem, became a part of this understanding. The name Jesus or Jesus Christ is often used in everything from idle conversation, to bumper stickers and jewelry, to enforcing false teachings, to justifying wars and political agendas, and is even used as a profanity. The name Yeshua however, has remained pure and holy, known and used only by those who would uphold His name and teachings in the highest regard and thus reserving His holy name for use only in spiritual matters and the most humbled and sincere of prayer and obeisances.

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But the root is Number 3467 of "yasha"- at all, avenging, defend, DELIVER(-er), help, preserve, rescue, be safe, BRING(having) SALVATION, SAVE(-iour), get victory" unquote of Strongs.

Still, this is why i said and asked the question of everyone: Either Peter( Joel 2:32; Acts 2:21 and Acts 4:10-12, and Paul, Rom.10:9-13) understood BOTH Names to mean the same for salvation and deliverence, or otherwise they would contradict themselves, and this is the only way to understand this, and let the texts harmonize.

I would like to speak with Brother Arnold concerning this( I wonder of his scriptural thoughts?) on this matter.

Again, thank You for responding, and everyone else.

Eliyah C.

I know in the past we have not agreed, I have bought this topic up as we have meet some people and shared the name with them.. but we have had to part from them ( their choice) as they do not believe that Yahushua existed before he become flesh etc, they even quoted the feet of Yahweh on the mount of olives which got my attention in your writings, we cannot get our heads around how they believe this and are so Indoctrinated in using the same words and scriptures ( that do not match) that it is like they are brain washed.. can you explain with all your knowledge clear how Yahushua is not Yahweh ( we beleive He has the all the authority of Yahweh as His Son) they do not even beleive in John Chap 1 or in colss where is says He was the first birth of creation and everything was created through Him... and that Yahushua is done away with at the end after the 1000 year rein ( but is He not our bridegroom and the father wants a bride without blemish etc for His son and that is us?? so we become part of Him) and that when steven saw Yahushua on the right hand of the father that he was seeing Yahweh ( this cannot be as no one has seen Yahweh) also who was mekizeldec ( sorry bad spelling) and who wreastled with Jacob.. it could not be Yahweh as no man has seen Him.. if you could kindly explain these things to me how these people and many others beleive what they do.. and what is the scriptures to prove this doctrine wrong.. I am very simple and have worked out that Yahushua could not be Yahweh as no man has seen Him yet Yahushua walked around the place, and that Yahweh cannot be part of or see sin yet Yahushua took the worlds sin on Him.. and many many many scriptures where Yahushua said it is not for me to say but my father.. sorry about all my words and i hope I have made it clear and you would take the time to clear this matter up.. still researching the other unclean matter, we are keeping away from all unclean animals etc..

Blessings

quote:

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Originally posted by John Cordaro:
Elyahc wrote;

John 1:14 says the "logos" or "word" became flesh. You sure are stretching Scripture to "YAH-WEH-SHUA" became flesh.

Shalom,
John

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I am trying to understand your beliefs based on this post, but am not sure if I am reading you correctly.

quote:

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I have bought this topic up as we have meet some people and shared the name with them.. but we have had to part from them ( their choice) as they do not believe that Yahushua existed before he become flesh etc,

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By this, you are saying that you believe Yahushua preexisted. Correct?

quote:

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they even quoted the feet of Yahweh on the mount of olives which got my attention in your writings, we cannot get our heads around how they believe this and are so Indoctrinated in using the same words and scriptures ( that do not match) that it is like they are brain washed..

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Most people believe "his feet" refers to Yahweh's feet. Yet, they realize that it is Yahshua who is returning to set up the Kingdom on earth. So they jump to the erroneous conclusion that Yahshua is Yahweh. As Messiah's feet land on the Mount of Olives, Yahweh the Father will cause it to cleave in two. Yet, as Yahweh's representative, Yahshua's feet are spoken of as Yahweh's feet just as Aaron's hand is spoken of as Yahweh's hand in Ex.7:17-20.

"Thus saith Yahweh, In this thou shalt know that I am Yahweh: behold, I will smite with the rod that is in mine hand upon the waters which are in the river, and they shall be turned to blood. And the fish that is in the river shall die, and the river shall stink; and the Egyptians shall lothe to drink of the water of the river. And Yahweh spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their rivers, and upon their ponds, and upon all their pools of water, that they may become blood; and that there may be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in vessels of wood, and in vessels of stone. And Moses and Aaron did so, as Yahweh commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood."

Yahweh says He Himself will smite the waters with the rod in His own hand. Yet, it was Aaron that held the rod (Ex.7:19,20).

quote:

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can you explain with all your knowledge clear how Yahushua is not Yahweh ( we beleive He has the all the authority of Yahweh as His Son)

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I agree that Yahweh has given His Son all authority. The important thing in that is that Yahweh gave that authority to ANOTHER being (His Son). He did not give that authority to Himself.

I have written a lengthy study on why Yahshua is not Yahweh. Rather than post it here, I will just provide a link to it. Feel free to email me your thoughts after reading it or ask specific questions on this forum and I’ll try to answer them. The URL is http://www.intergate.com/~jcordaro/yahweh_yahshua.html

quote:

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they do not even beleive in John Chap 1 or in colss where is says He was the first birth of creation and everything was created through Him...

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I address these issues in several studies on my site. http://www.intergate.com/~jcordaro/Jn.1.html & http://www.intergate.com/~jcordaro/preexist%3F.html

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and that Yahushua is done away with at the end after the 1000 year rein

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I do not believe that. After the 1,000 years, Yahshua will turn the Kingdom over to Yahweh, but he will continue to live forever.

quote:

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and that when steven saw Yahushua on the right hand of the father that he was seeing Yahweh ( this cannot be as no one has seen Yahweh)

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I believe Stephen saw both of them in a vision, not literally.

quote:

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also who was mekizeldec ( sorry bad spelling) and who wreastled with Jacob.. it could not be Yahweh as no man has seen Him..

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Melchizedek was Melchizedek and Jacob wrestled with an angel: Hos.12:3,4a - "He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with Elohim: Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed:"

quote:

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if you could kindly explain these things to me how these people and many others beleive what they do.. and what is the scriptures to prove this doctrine wrong.. I am very simple and have worked out that Yahushua could not be Yahweh as no man has seen Him yet Yahushua walked around the place, and that Yahweh cannot be part of or see sin yet Yahushua took the worlds sin on Him.. and many many many scriptures where Yahushua said it is not for me to say but my father..

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By this, I understand that you do not believe Yahshua is Yahweh. Correct? If so, I totally agree. Yet, I do not believe Yahshua preexisted as a being separate from Yahweh. Therefore, I cannot prove their doctrine wrong.

quote:

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still researching the other unclean matter, we are keeping away from all unclean animals etc..

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You do realize we can touch unclean living animals, right? We just can’t touch their dead carcass or eat them.

I am amazed at all the time spent on this topic in the Assemblies instead of using reason, respect, and responcability to come to a position of nuetrality on this Topic as long as we all believe in the revelation that Yahushua of Nazareth spoken of in the Apostolic Writings was "The Messiah the Son of the Living Elohim" upon which the Congregation the Body of the Messiah is founded upon which the gates of the grave/sheol shall not prevail against.

What about spending more time learning to walk in the Spirit and not fulfil one of the lust of the flesh which is debating or having to always be correct and right?

How long has it been since you prayed? Or Fasted? for the Unity of the Spirit in the bonds of peace? Which means we have put to death the flesh and desire with all our hearts to walk in the Spirit of Yahu'eh! \o\HalleluYAH/o/

(This admonishment was as much for me as for you all my Family in Yah)

quote:

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Originally posted by dauid_ben_yacov:
I am amazed at all the time spent on this topic in the Assemblies. . .

What about spending more time learning to walk in the Spirit and not fulfil one of the lust of the flesh which is debating or having to always be correct and right?

How long has it been since you prayed? Or Fasted? for the Unity of the Spirit in the bonds of peace? Which means we have put to death the flesh and desire with all our hearts to walk in the Spirit of Yahu'eh! \o\HalleluYAH/o/

(This admonishment was as much for me as for you all my Family in Yah)

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Shalom Dauid,

Your admonishment has much validity, but your timing was inappropriate. Spending time on this subject is unavoidable when a brother or sister desires to know the truth. This thread was dormant for over a month until kenanddeb asked questions in all sincerity. They desired to know the truth. I, for one, felt obligated to respond to the questions they asked. How often we pray or fast should have no bearing on our actions. They could do nothing, but seek truth. I could do nothing, but respond to their questions. Had I reactivitated this thread to push my own beliefs, then your admonishment would have been more appropriate and timely.

May you have a blessed Feast season,
John

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I am amazed at all the time spent on this topic in the Assemblies instead of using reason, respect, and responcability to come to a position of nuetrality on this Topic as long as we all believe in the revelation that Yahushua of Nazareth spoken of in the Apostolic Writings was "The Messiah the Son of the Living Elohim" upon which the Congregation the Body of the Messiah is founded upon which the gates of the grave/sheol shall not prevail against.

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With your statement above, I must ask the question....

Do you believe it is fine to worship the Eternal falsely?

Exodus 20:3 “You have no other mighty ones against My face.

Is this not why the debate continues>?

Is it alright to worship the Almighty as we desire. He sees the intent of the heart right?

Such as the Christians who worship an Elohim who is three entities in one?

Who worship the One true Elohim, composed of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

The majority who frequent this forum understand that the trinity doctrine was a man made fabrication.

Lets look at the similar doctrine of many messianics...

Who worship the One true Elohim who is two entities in one. The Father and the Son.

There are those of us who see this doctrine as a man made fabrication as well. We do not settle with "close enough" he understands our hearts. It is our desire to worship the One true Mighty One who will have none exalted above Him or equal to Him.

We believe as our brothers Yahudah that there is none that comes before the Almighty who created EVERYTHING.

And even further we seek the Truth. When was Messiah Yah'shua created? Was he created before the Messengers as the firstborn of all creation? There is no firm proof of this in the TaNaKh only hellenistic possibility born from twisting the word written in the letters of Shaul to the assemblies.

Our brothers Yahudah know that the Messiah will come from the lineage of David. A man born of flesh. They do not see him as a pre-existant being who literally came down from heaven. They see that he is The Prophet fom the root of Jesse of who will ready the world for the Father to dwell with His people.

We agree with Yahudah on this point. We also realize that they do not see that Yah'shua is the promised one. Though they will when he comes to set the world right.

I hope no-one on this forum believes that it is acceptable to stop striving for truth. And that open debate in a civil and respectful manner is profitable. Our brother Yahudah has been doing this for a looong time. Seeking the truth in love.

Shabbat shalom,