Who was (HaYah), who is (HoWeH) and who is to come (YiH'YeH). It is commonly believed that the name is derived from the first form (HYH) and that the congugation with the letters YHWH gives you YaH'WeH. This is what the majority of scholars believe. Some of the Karaites and Tsaddikim (Sadducees) believe that it comes from the third form (YHYH) and so the name is YiH'WeH (pronounced yee-weh). What about the middle form HWH. If one added a yod to it, what would the congegation look like? With the Yemmenites pronouncing the sehgol like a patach, would it produce the dreaded, the hated, and the feared YaHoWaH!!!!??????

Good Shabbas,

I will have to comment on this more after Shabbath. What I can tell you is that the Hiphil Imperfect, 3ms of Hey-Waw-Hey and the Pual Imperfect, 3ms of Hey-Waw-Hey, seem to possible jive with something I was reading on from an Hebrew-Semetic/Arabic perspective. This is the with the Sheva and the Seghol of the Hiphil,3ms,Imperfect of Hey-Waw-Hey form having a Pathach like sound (Yehuweh [normal congigation form] or Yahuwah[Yemenite pronunciation]). In the Pual, 3ms, Imperfect it would be Yahweh [normal conjigation] or Yahwah [Yemenite pronunciation].

It also can from a different Binyan perspective of Yod-Hay being an form of exclamation, and Hey-Waw-Hey being like saying "He is." With a meaning like "Oh! He is." It was an interesting article, and the form jives well with Yemenite style of pronunciation. Yet, this is only a theory.

In terms of the Kariate believed pronunciation (Yihweh) this in the Yemenite dialect would be like Yihwah, or in the Samaritan like Yehwah. Of course it being 3ms imperfect Qal of Hey-Waw-Hey. Alas, without the direct intervention of Elohim, blessed is He, this could all be just theory.

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Eloah immakhem,

Shimson bar-Tzadoq

quote:

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Originally posted by david_ben_yacob:
Shimon,

I would like to know where I could verify the Yemenite pronounciation and verify the antiquity of that pronounciation. I would also like to know how old their vowel pointing system is.

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Yemenite Pronunciation Table
http://www.chayas.com/pronounceparchi.htm#parch
http://www.chayas.com/prontable.jpg
http://www.chayas.com/prontab2.jpg

The last one shows you how the Seghol in Yemenite pronunciation is the same as the Pathach.

Yemenite Music with Pronunciation
http://www.chayas.com/musical.htm

Also you want to go to http://www.jewishmusic.com and do a search on Yemenite under the music. There is a Yemenite music CD which has a song on it called Ahyah Oshar Ahyah (Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh) which is a good display how Yemenite Jews pronounce the Seghol. As far as vowel point system, this is something of a misnomer with Yemenite Jews. The reason is because at at least the age of 5 Yemenite Jewish children can read unpointed Hebrew and understand it. Many of the elder Yemenite Jews whom came to Israel in the 1950's could read Hebrew side ways upside down, etc. and many had the Tanakh and other Hebrew and Aramaic writings in Hebrew memorized. Because all vowel pointing came from the same period this would not be the issue. You may want to research the Samaritans because their dialect of Hebrew is believed by some to be ancient. Their vowel pointing came at a lot later date, and they similar to Yemenite Jews can read unpointed texts from an early age. Also, they don't have the same hang ups as Jews do about saying or writing the Name of Elohim, blessed is He. I have seen Samaritans write The Name of Elohim. They used to pronounce His Name during Yom Kippur until fairly recently. Also they have a chest that resides in Nablus that has several inscriptions that deal with the Name of Elohim, blessed is He.

quote:

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I am not convinced that yod shin uau ayin shortened from yod hay uau shin uau ayin or yod hay uau shin ayin is "Yeshua" (from Yahoshua or Yahushua.) I have been aware all along that the Aramaic text spells it a certain way and the Hebrew text has the longer form. The Hebrew Munster text of Hebrews spells it yod hay uau shin ayin in the Brit ha Kodesha. How it was anciently pronounced is what I am trying to acertain. The o,u,v,w thing could be just another way Satan has confused the whole issue for us in English.

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As I mentioned before I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, a person's beliefs are their own and I show everyone respect in terms of what they believe, regardless if I agree or not. I only have an issue with incorrect information, that people are passing off as truth with no evidence. In terms of pronunciations and such, that is something that you will have to research and come to your own conclusion. It is my belief that The Creator would NEVER allow such vital information to disappear without a text to prove it true. Just like the varous attempts that have been made throughout history to destroy the Torah have never succeded. I believe that no matter what hasatan does he can could never make a thing which Elohim, blessed is He, sets apart disappear or be hidden. What I have seen is that a thing is a hidden from people who don't realistically search. The answer could easily be in some ancient scroll, tomb, or artifact in Israel or Syria, but if a person never took the time to go to Israel or Syria they would never know.

The same goes for those who don't study the complete history of the Hebrew language. There are those whom claim Hebrew to be a Set-Apart language, yet refuse to learn it. Go figure. Think of it this way, you had not heard of exactly how Yemenite Jews pronounce Hebrew until you mentioned something about them, and now you have the information you asked about. Yet, how many of the people whom claim they searching for such a thing are really searching in the issue. hasatan only has a small of fraction of power, most of it men/women give to him by not researching for themselves.

Now one thing I can tell you is that there is only one text that has Yod-Hay-Waw-Shin-Ayin. The Munster Text, if I remember has this form only once. Also, the history of the Munster text states the following (taken from James Trimm's site).

The Munster Hebrew Text of Matthew was published in 1537 by Sebastian Munster. Munster claimed to have received his Hebrew text from the Jews. Munster also noted that he received the text "in defective condition, and with many lacunae (holes)" which he himself filled in. Unfortunately Munster did not take steps to preserve his manuscript source which is now lost, and he did not make note of those places where he filled in missing text.

Note that he filled in gaps in the text and no one knows where he filled it in nor his source. This does not provide itself as an completely reliable source. That plus it is the ONLY one that has Yod-Hey-Waw-Shin-Ayin. Also, how reliable was Muster, we don't know. Also, none of the other Hebrew texts have that.

All of the following have Yod-Shin-Waw-Ayin:

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Eloah immakhem,

Well I'm not a scholar, but here are my two cents. I agree with Shimson that the common view among scholars is that the tetragrammaton is a 3ms imperfect from the root hei-waw-hei. Based on the view that the vowel in the first syllable is an "a" the binyan is assumed to be hifil. There are others who take the view that hei-waw-hei does not occur in the hifil. Thus, the "a" in the first syllable is an irregularity in the conjugation.

"Hoveh", which appears twice in the Tanakh, is the ms particle from the same root. Perhaps in late Biblical Hebrew and certainly in later developments of Hebrew, the participle is used as a present tense. "Hoveh" is used to mean "He is" in "Adon Olam" that was composed in the Middle Ages. It is also used in the chorus of the Messianic Jewish song "Kadosh", which says "asher hayah vehoveh veyavo" (Who was and is and is to come). "Hoveh" is also the term used in Hebrew to refer to the present tense.

It is good to finally have a realistic intellectual discussion on these things.

B"Y

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Eloah immakhem,

There's some interesting info here....especially from Physicist and Shimson......but really...there are about 7 threads currently devoted to this topic.....but what is being accomplished? -Nothing....but conjecture and speculation.....and all this time and energy expended over the doubtful pronounciation of an ancient word.

Please, everyone.....think twice before starting another thread on this subject!

I think the difference here is that we are actually discussing it, without name calling and such. The other difference is that we are not discussing it with the understanding of "solving" anything, but presenting scholarly information. Also, I can probably be sure that both Physicist and Shlomoh actually don't spend most of their time on this issue.

As far as I am concerned Elohim, blessed is He, will reveal with 100% accuracy His Name in the day when His complete presence is among men. Without His Shehhinah there is only a Name.

Another reason for this particular discussion is because the Yemenite Jewish and Samaritan pronunciation is not known to all. It is a Jewish culture that recently scholars are beginning to pay more attention to, the funny thing is that many Jewish religious scholars from what I heard, gained much insight from janitors whom were Yemenite Jews.

The Name debate actually only takes up about 0.0001% of my life. Studying Hebrew for the sake of conversation and reading takes up about 20% and actually performing and learning how to effectively live out the Torah is about 25%, the rest is in prayer to regulate my stance with Elohim and strengthen the others.

Now if only those who actually do spend their entire existance debating this issue actually headed your words.

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Eloah immakhem,

Shimson bar-Tzadoq

Let me say the following just for the record since Shimson certainly knows it already.

Most every verb root that now ends in hei (actually I can't think of any exceptions off the top of my head) originally ended in yod or in some cases waw. In the perfect the hei only appears in the 3ms (as a vowel). For other persons and numbers the hei disappears entirely or reverts to the original yod. The hei is present in the basic imperfect as a vowel, but there are frequently shortened forms without the final hei for the jussive and consecutive forms. In the infinite the hei is replaced by "ot".

Another interesting aspect is that vowel letters (matres lectionis) were not used in Hebrew before about the 9th century BCE thus if Mosheh originally wrote yod-hei-waw-hei in the 14th century BCE the letters represented all consonants. Of course, if that happens to be the case then the commonly accepted form is wrong, and we have no guidance about what vowels to supply.

.....and don't get me wrong....personally, I am finding this particular thread quite interesting. It's just that there ae some here who seem to base their faith on the vocalization of a word- as if whether one pronounces an "Ahh" or "eh" is going to determine ones salvation! -and they spend so much time on this issue....picking one particular side...or one scholars' (or worse yet, a psuedo-scholars')opinion, and giving greater creedence to that than to the weightier matters of the Scriptures.

I know that that is not the case with you and Physicist- and like I said, I actually enjoy this thread....but i'm reading it knowing that there are some reading it whose life almost depends on it! (Or so they think!)

I think that you and physicist are doing a great job though, in presenting good information in a congenial manner- which is so much nicer than reading such a discussion where men argue over such a vague and ethereal subject with passion and conviction- and yet have not any proof, other than their own opinion, to substantiate what they say.

Blessings,

The bottom line of all this is that Hebrew, like all living languages has different dialects, and so the exact pronounciation of YHWH that was uttered to Mosheh at the bush is and will ever remain, unknown. Shimshon has pointed out that according to the normal rules of Yemenite pronouncaition, YaH'WaH or YaHuWaH are the best cantidates. This has been my conclusion for years on this topic, except I had used an -eh rather than an -ah ending.

Shlomoh

The RaMBaM mentions in the Mishnah Torah that each of the 12 tribes received a copy of the Torah for their tribe. It would be interesting if there were different intreptations and debates, starting at that point. It would be interesting if the dialects shifted slightly then also. Kind of like how here in the US people from the north talk one way, the east another, and the south another. When I lived in Houston at times I had a hard time understanding people. :-)

I can't wait to go to Israel to do research into some of the artifacts and digs. I have been collecting various Midrashim from Yemenite history as well as Samaritan history. The Samaritan Kohein HaGadol from several hundred years ago wrote and interesting commentary on the Torah. I can't wait to get more. My biggest interest has been what was life like for the common Yisraeli before and during the 1st Temple times in the land. I have also had an interest in the scribal arts.

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Eloah immakhem,

Shimson bar-Tzadoq

I too would like to know more about the beliefs and practices of sincere Torah observers in the 1st century and then even before the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities. It seems I have heard most of what you wrote and agree that faith in Yahueh and living it out to the best of our ability is somethig we all should be striving with the help of the Ruach ha Kadosh to do. I don't realy buy into all the traditions created in the oral traditions of the Jews about the 3rd commandment. Showing disrespect for the Father's name is one of ten basic commandments that are the foundation of the 613 laws found in the books of Moshe. Telling lies in His name comes in many forms including living a lie which so many are guilty of in so many ways including myself. So I relly on the mercy of Yahueh to correct me and show me the proper light giving me the strength to do what is right.

I agree that people should learn both Hebrew and Aramaic so they can converse and read in the manuscript copies themselves. I think that the fear of leaving the common venacular comes from the traditions of Protestantism because the Roman Catholics relied on Latin alone for so long. People don't believe the Creator will make it hard for them to understand the truth in thier own language, which I too believe is basically true also considering at the same time that the original tongues would fine tune our beliefs and give us a better understanding. Every Yahuist assembly should have Hebrew classes.

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David ben Yacob