You said:
"...'there are one or two extra days. These days are not extra at all, they are renewal days and are irrelevent towards Moedim"

.................

Did I hear it right? "those extra days are irrelevant"!

Let's look at Ex. 20:8-11 (KJV)
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Notice Gen 1:14-19 (KJV)
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day F4 from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, F5 and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

Gen. 2:1-3 (KJV)
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

The moon was created on the FOURTH DAY. And on the SEVENTH DAY HE rested.

Thus it would appear that the REAL sabbath during the time of creation would fall on the 10th day.

Furthermore the torah said: "six day to do the work and the seven is the sabbath".

Merriam Webster Collegiate Dictionary
Main Entry: week
Pronunciation: 'wEk
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English weke, from Old English wicu, wucu; akin to Old High German wehha week and perhaps to Latin vicis change, alternation, Old High German wehsal exchange
Date: before 12th century
1 a : any of a series of 7-day cycles used in various calendars; especially : a 7-day cycle beginning on Sunday and ending on Saturday b (1) : a week beginning with a specified day or containing a specified holiday (2) : a week appointed for public recognition of some cause
2 a : any seven consecutive days b : a series of regular working, business, or school days during each 7-day period
3 : a time seven days before or after a specified day

Week --- a series of regular working days. It says a "SERIES" NOT "ALTERNATING". Those extra days before the next new moon are PART OF A WEEK, it cannot be set aside. A WEEK cannot be called a week unless it is made up of 7 consecutive days. Remember one month is equivalent to 29.5 days.

The 29th day starts the new count for the new week, cutting it in between would transgress the scriptures which said "six days of work" (that is six consecutive days).

Exodus 16 is the account of gathering quails.

v. 1 "...on the fifteenth day of the second month after their departing out of the land of Egypt."

v. 5 "And it shall come to pass, that on the sixth day they shall prepare that which they bring in; and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily."

On the 15th day at even the quails come up. And on the 16th (morning) the manna was given. This was done for six consecutive days (NO DAYS IN-BETWEEN). After the 6th day was the sabbath (AGAIN NO IN-BETWEENs).

Let us draw the chart:
The quails come up on the EVEN of the 15th. So the count starts at the 15th.

Day 1 --- 15th Even: Quails Morning: Manna
Day 2 --- 16th Even: Quails Morning: Manna
Day 3 --- 17th Even: Quails Morning: Manna
Day 4 --- 18th Even: Quails Morning: Manna
Day 5 --- 19th Even: Quails Morning: Manna
Day 6 --- 20th Even: Quails Morning: Manna
Day 7 --- 21st Sabbath (even of 20th)

They gathered the quails and manna from the 15th up to the 20th. The 21st they rested. Seven days consecutive (NO DAYS IN-BETWEEN). They were given the quails right after they murmured. I think most would agree that the 15th during this time was a Sabbath day. Therefore:

9 10 11 12 13 14 15
Work Work Work Work Work Work Rest

16 17 18 19 20 21 22
Work Work Work Work Work Work Rest

23 24 25 26 27 28 29
Work Work Work Work Work Work Rest

As you can see here the Sabbaths occured then on the 15th and 22nd--and thereby also the 8th (seven days previous) and the 29th (seven days thereafter).

Question:
1. If the Sabbath is be reckoned by counting seven days after the new moon, how could there ever be a Sabbath on the eighth day of the month as shown above?

2. If they gathered twice on the sabbath, could this "twice" sustained then during the extended sabbaths?

Think about these!

[This message has been edited by WilliamJ (edited 01-30-2003).]

Here are some answers to your questions.

Question #1:
"..could you place the proof that the sabbath was kept without fail up until this day please."

Answer#1 (Please visit the site)
Here is a quote from: http://www.biblestudy.org/godsrest/timelost.html
"Finally, we have the scientific testimony of astronomers. We quote from the official government statements to the League of Nations, as published August 17, 1926, in an official League document.

The government of Finland presented this observation from one of its astronomers:

"The reform [calendar reform before the League] would break the division of the week, which has been followed for thousands of years, and therefore has been hallowed by immemorial use."

The government of France presented the following statements from two of its leading astronomers:

"One essential point is that of the continuity of the week ... a continuity which has existed for so many centuries." "The continuity of the week ... is without doubt the most ancient scientific institution bequeathed to us by antiquity."
Stated Prof. D. Eginitis, director of the Observatory of Athens, a member of the League Committee,

"The continuity of the week ... has crossed the centuries, and all known calendars, still intact."

Answer#2
Luke 4:16-17 (KJV)
v. 16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

v. 17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,"

Notice the statement "AS HIS CUSTOM WAS". Who were on the synagogue? What particular occasion was this?

It was the sabbath "according to his customs" indicates a practice common to all the Jews at the time. Yahushua did not contradict the already known custom of the Jews (sabbath keeping).

Remember, Yahushua rebuked the Pharisees (Matt. 5;20), but no where can you find that HE castigated them regarding the the wrong observance of sabbath, rather by self-righteouness.

........................

Question#2:
"I follow what he sais, meaning i understand what hes saying, the 15th was the day after a sabbath. not the 15th, What hes saying is the moon cycles in 7s and then refreshes. through its lunar cycle."

Answer:
Please read back Ex. 16 (special note on v. 10 -- "And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud.)

The 15th on that time WAS A SABBATH. The glory of Yahweh only appears on the tabernacles during these occasions. The gathering of the quails occured on the EVEN (evening portion of 16th). As you can see, they assembled on the morning portion of the 15th. Thus if we say the sabbath depends only on the phases of the moon it failed here. If the 1st day of the month is the real sabbath, so it would appear that the 7th, 14th, 21st, and 28th shouls be the sabbaths also. But here the sabbath occured on the 15th NOT 14th.

...................

Got to break here... return next time ... no more time left.

http://yahweh.org/publications/articles/rules/rules_new_moon.pdf

http://yahweh.org/publications/articles/beginning/beginning_of_year.pdf

Sorry, but I thought that I posted it here.

Yacov Seedeater: You said:

"...'there are one or two extra days. These days are not extra at all, they are renewal days and are irrelevent towards Moedim"

Did I hear it right? "those extra days are irrelevant"! .

Yes you heard correctly and yet I don't believe you understand what was said. Let me make it clear to you: Because Ps. 104:19a in plain language tells us the moon was created for Moedim, it specifically is telling us of the relationship between feastdays (moedim, appointed times) and the moon. Moedim have affinity with the Moon cycle. That affinity shows that when the moon is impossible to view due to its position in relationship to the viewer on earth, aka 'renewal or dark days', those days are not to be counted toward Moedim. Case in point is the counting of the Omer and the occasion of Shavuot. In Lev. 23 the count of the Omer is a cross-check that ensures that Shavuot each year falls on the 15th day of the third month, even as Pesach and Sukkot fall on the 15th day of the first and seventh months (respectively) each year. The relevence of this is that during the three pilgrim feasts (shalosh regalim) when all the first born sons were required by Torah to make aliyah, that is go up to the temple mount, it was a full moon. This is very important because the day before each chag (feast) was the 14th, which is always the weekly Shabbat. That makes two whole days of worship on the temple mount which was lighted up with the light of a full moon. They all wore their kittels/ (white robes) and the limestone of the temple and streets was washed by the moonrise light backlighting the temple face as they all entered the Eastern Gate. Leviticus 23 is therefore a cross-check to verify that Shavuot always falls each year at the appointed time. The rabbis, if you are familiar with them, have fixed Shavuot to always fall on the 6th day of the 3rd month. This effectively nullifies the Torah command to keep Shavuot at the appointed time. We also know this is not the true time of Shavuot because the falasha Jews of Ethiopia have always counted the Omer from the 22nd day of the first month. They existed independant of rabbinic influence and there interpretation of Lev. 23 dates to ancient times. Why would the rabbis do this and is there any record of them tampering with appointed times elsewhere? Yes, in Acts 2 we are inforemed that WHEN SHAVUOT HAD FULLY COME the Ruach was poured out on the followers of Yeshua. That word 'fully' is what is known as a remez (hint) which demands further looking into. The religious powers of the first century, both Sadducees and Pharisees were upstaged by the disciples of Yeshua who both witnessed and experienced the outpouring of the Ruach. Furthermore, there is specific prophecy about how the nation of Israel would be subverted by the religious leaders away from YHWH's true times. This came to pass with false Shavuot and the Hillel postponements, perhaps you have seen their calculations which date to ancient Babylon and which stand in direct opposition to the commandments of YHWH to Israel to OBSERVE His Torah.

Let's look at Ex. 20:8-11 (KJV)
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Let's look at the literal of this from the Hebrew retaining the word order which KJV changes:

Shemot (Names; Eng. Exodus) 20:8-11 Remember et-day Shabbat, to set it apart. Six days shall you serve and do all your work: and day the seventh, sabbath to YHWH your Elohim not doing any work: you, and your son, and your daughter, your manservant and your maidservant, and your cattle, and the stranger that is within your gates: For six days made YHWH et-the heavens and et-the earth, et-the sea, and et-all that in them is, and was refreshed in day the seventh: so blessed YHWH et-day the sabbath, and He set it apart.

Notice Gen 1:14-19 (KJV)
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day F4 from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, F5 and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

Bereishit (Firsts or Beginnings; Eng. Genesis)1:14-19 And spoke Elohim, "Let there be lights in firmament of the heavens to divide between the day and between the night and let them be for OTOT (no adequate English word exists) and for appointed times (Moedim) and for days and years. And let them be for lights in firmament of the heavens for the light on the earth;" and it was so. And made Elohim et-two of the greater lights; et-the light the greater to rule the day, and et-THE LIGHT THE LESSER TO RULE THE NIGHT, and the stars (some debate whether this word means planets or constellations). And gave to them Elohim in firmament of the heavens for light upon the earth. And for ruling in day and in night and for the division between the light and between the darkness, and saw Elohim to itfor good. And it was evening and it was morning day four.

Gen. 2:1-3 (KJV)
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Bereishit (Firsts or Beginnings; Eng. Genesis)2:1-3 And they finished the heavens and the earth and all their hosts. And finished Elohim in day the seventh His work that had been done and sabbathed in day the seventh from all His work that had been done. And blessed Elohim et-day the seventh and set it apart to Himself, for in sabbathing from all His work that was created, Elohim was done with it.

The moon was created on the FOURTH DAY. And on the SEVENTH DAY HE rested.

Actually it says He sabbathed in day the seventh,and not 'the seventh day' and we understand it to mean he rested.

Thus it would appear that the REAL sabbath during the time of creation would fall on the 10th day.

Not at all, as a matter of fact if you follow rabbinic understanding at all on this matter, they say that the six days of creation were the at the end of the seventh month. My understanding is that the fourth day of creation was the 25th of that month and thus the first Sabbath was at the time of the renewal.

Furthermore the torah said: "six day to do the work and the seven is the sabbath".

Precisely when one counts according to the Moon for Moedim, there are only and ever six days each week, the dark days of renewal are not week days, nor do they count toward Moedim.

The definition you give below presumes a perpetual seven day count therefore is not legitimate for our discussion though it does reflect the modern paradigm. Merriam Webster is not the Ruach haKodesh.

Merriam Webster Collegiate Dictionary
Main Entry: week
Pronunciation: 'wEk
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English weke, from Old English wicu, wucu; akin to Old High German wehha week and perhaps to Latin vicis change, alternation, Old High German wehsal exchange
Date: before 12th century
1 a : any of a series of 7-day cycles used in various calendars; especially : a 7-day cycle beginning on Sunday and ending on Saturday b (1) : a week beginning with a specified day or containing a specified holiday (2) : a week appointed for public recognition of some cause
2 a : any seven consecutive days b : a series of regular working, business, or school days during each 7-day period
3 : a time seven days before or after a specified day

Week --- a series of regular working days. It says a "SERIES" NOT "ALTERNATING".

Series = perpetual, this is the very thing being challenged by the Scriptural understanding of the lunar timekeeping toward feasts. If you count as the world, it is here alleged you have a perpetual seven count, seven being the Hebrew number meaning covenant, oath, or vow. I agree that all who are keeping the perpetual seven solar count are covenanting with some spiritual entity. I am further alleging they are either wittingly or unwittingly covenanting with the image of the beast.

Those extra days before the next new moon are PART OF A WEEK, it cannot be set aside.

Only because of your preconceived frame of reference, when in point of fact, according to the Scriptures, they do not count toward appointed times, the first of which is the weekly Shabbat, Lev. 23:2-4 in Hebrew. I am challenging that frame of reference as being a false one by design, instituted to keep YHWH's people Israel from OBSERVING His TRUE SABBATH.

A WEEK cannot be called a week unless it is made up of 7 consecutive days.

This concept is not being disputed, I agree.

Remember one month is equivalent to 29.5 days.

Technically this is incorrect. 29.5 days is the time of the cycle of the moon in orbit. A month is either 29 or 30 days with relation to human experience on earth, half days are not counted, but one day is intercalated as needed.

The 29th day starts the new count for the new week, cutting it in between would transgress the scriptures which said "six days of work" (that is six consecutive days).

I certainly understand your frame of reference as well, if not better, than you do. What I am saying is that the world's way of counting is NOT what the scriptures teach.

Exodus 16 is the account of gathering quails.

v. 1 "...on the fifteenth day of the second month after their departing out of the land of Egypt."

v. 5 "And it shall come to pass, that on the sixth day they shall prepare that which they bring in; and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily."

On the 15th day at even the quails come up. And on the 16th (morning) the manna was given.

True statements so far but here is where you start to stray...

This was done for six consecutive days (NO DAYS IN-BETWEEN). After the 6th day was the sabbath (AGAIN NO IN-BETWEENs).

It was five consecutive days not six. Because the quail were gathered the 15th at even, which is still part of the 15th, the 15th was the first of the six, even though the manna was not collected that day. In other words, that first week manna was only collected on five days, the last of which was the 20th of the month, the sixth of the week, and a double portion was gathered. This has led to an minor but significant error in your chart below. I have redone it for you.

Day 1 15th (no manna) Even: Quails
Day 2 16th Morning: Manna Even: Quails
Day 3 17th Morning: Manna Even: Quails
Day 4 18th Morning: Manna Even: Quails
Day 5 19th Morning: Manna Even: Quails
Day 6 20th Morning: Manna Even: Quails
Day 7 21st No manna Sabbath; nothing said about quail on this day but it is presumed none were gathered or cooked on Shabbat.

They gathered the quails and manna from the 15th up to the 20th. The 21st they rested. Seven days consecutive (NO DAYS IN-BETWEEN). They were given the quails right after they murmured.

I agree
15-1, 16-2, 17-3, 18-4, 19-5, 20-6, 21-7

I think most would agree that the 15th during this time was a Sabbath day.

This is not true in that they journeyed, they gathered and they cooked, read my commentary below to see it more clearly. What follows below is spurious because of the mistake.

Therefore:
9 10 11 12 13 14 15
Work Work Work Work Work Work Rest

16 17 18 19 20 21 22
Work Work Work Work Work Work Rest

23 24 25 26 27 28 29
Work Work Work Work Work Work Rest

As you can see here the Sabbaths occured then on the 15th and 22nd--and thereby also the 8th (seven days previous) and the 29th (seven days thereafter).

I categorically disagree with you on this count. You are one day off having the children of Israel engaged in gathering and cooking on their first alleged Sabbath. The 15th was the first day and the fourteenth, the day before was the actual Sabbath according to the lunar count of which they were neither aware of, nor accountable to at the time.

Question:
1. If the Sabbath is be reckoned by counting seven days after the new moon, how could there ever be a Sabbath on the eighth day of the month as shown above?

Bad question based on your own reasoning which errors I have already pointed out. But you are correct in thinking this contrived scenario of yours preposterous, it is.

The way this works is that after sunset, on the first day of each month, the first visible crescent comes into view at the time three stars become visible in the night sky, hence a new day has begun.

This is the OBSERVATION of the Rosh Chodesh or 'head of renewal' as it literally means. The name is taken from the ancients way of thinking that the crescent moon resembles the horns of an ox. This is what they would call the first day of the month.

The crescent sets within a few hours of sighting for that day and the following morning being the first day of the month and week, folks returned to work. This they did six days after which at sunset following the sixth day Sabbath was begun.

The first quarter typically falls on the sixth day which signifies that after daylight was over the next day, Sabbath begins. This gave them a day of preparation.

At times the first quarter was on the seventh: the first quarter is a distinct and clear SIGN in the night sky representing the coming of 'day the seventh', or Sabbath as we call it.

In every month, the first quarter, as far as I am aware, never comes on day five or eight. Sabbaths are always on days 7, 14, 21, and 28 followed by the renewal days.

For more look at the chart on my website

A Model of The Scriptural Lunar Sabbath and Aviv Barley Calendar
http://www.angelfire.com/wa2/bethmiqlat/Lunar_Sabbath.doc

2. If they gathered twice on the sabbath, could this "twice" sustained then during the extended sabbaths?

This is a good question with fuzzy edges. They did not gather at all on the Sabbath, but I understand you to mean twice ON THAT particular sixth day. Strict reading of the Hebrew shows that the children of Israel gathered twice as much manna that particular sixth day (the 20th) in fulfilment of the prophetic word spoken in verses 4 and 5. Many take this to be an unbroken principle, but that is another common mistake as it only applies to the first three weeks of each month: but please take note of the exegesis of Ex 16:25-30, and the commentary immediately beneath it (below) where the KJV has wrongly translated the Hebrew phrase correctly translated BREAD OF DAYS.

Please go easy on me JR if you disagree, I certainly don't mind giving every reason for why I believe as I do. Thanks

Shemot 16:1-3 And they took their journey from Elim, and all the congregation of the sons of Israel came unto the wilderness of Sin, which is between Elim and Sinai, on the fifteenth day of the second month after their departing out of the land of Egypt. And the whole congregation of the sons of Israel murmured against Moshe and Aharon in the wilderness: And the sons of Israel said unto them, "Would to Elohim we had died by the hand of in the land of Egypt, when we sat by the flesh pots, and when we did eat bread to the full; for you have brought us forth into this wilderness, to kill this whole assembly with hunger."

The literal rendering of the phrase "on the fifteenth day of the second month" is "in the five (and) tenth day from renewal the second"; renewal being the dark days preceding the first sliver. If you are paying close attention, then you will note how the people railed against Moses and Aaron and spoke evil against them too, along with false accusations. Here is what happened next.

16:4-7 Then said YHWH unto Moshe, "Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in My Torah, or no. And it shall come to pass, that on the sixth day they shall prepare that which they bring in; and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily." And Moshe and Aharon said unto all the sons of Israel, "At even, then ye shall know that YHWH has brought you out from the land of Egypt: And in the morning, then you shall see the glory of YHWH; for that He hears your murmurings against YHWH: and what are we, that you murmur against us?

The phrase "on the sixth day" literally is "in day six" and refers to what would happen when day six would come, they would gather twice as much. The phrase "at even" however means that same evening when these events took place. Now give particular attention to what Moshe says next because it tells us what had happened to them that very evening:

16:8 And Moshe said, "This shall be, when YHWH shall give you in the evening flesh to eat, and in the morning bread to the full; for that YHWH hears your murmurings which you murmur against Him: and what are we? Your murmurings are not against us, but against YHWH.

According to the Scriptures it was the 15th day when Moshe foretold what would happen starting "at even" or "erev". Regardless of how you may number your days, what is in view here is that before the sun set that day they gathered fowl and had a meal.

Notice the bread did not come until the next morning. Here we see they had journeyed that day, worked gathering flesh to eat, and cooked it all on the same day that they murmurred against YHWH. It was not the Sabbath therefore the 15th day from the renewal was not a Sabbath day. Therefore also, rockys' false count of a Sabbath on the 22nd does not stand the test of scripture.

Continuing:

16:9-15 And Moshe spake unto Aaron, "Say unto all the congregation of the sons of Israel, "Come near before YHWH: for He has heard your murmurings."" And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the sons of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of YHWH appeared in the cloud. And YHWH spake unto Moshe, saying, "I have heard the murmurings of the sons of Israel: speak unto them, saying, "At even you shall eat flesh, and in the morning you shall be filled with bread; and you shall know that I am YHWH your Elohim." And it came to pass, that at even the quails came up, and covered the camp: and in the morning the dew lay round about the host. And when the dew that lay was gone up, behold, upon the face of the wilderness there lay a small round thing, as small as the hoar frost on the ground. And when the sons of Israel saw it, they said one to another, "What is it?": for they wist not what it was. And Moshe said unto them, "This is the bread which YHWH has given you to eat."

Again, notice that fowl was gathered in the end of the day the people had murmurred; the same day YHWH told Moshe what to say to them NO MANNA WAS COLLECTED. It was not until the next morning, day two of this series, also being the 16th day of the second month that manna was gathered in the morning. The only time clue in the next few verses refers to the day when they tried to keep the manna overnight and it bred worms; that day being the third day of the story and also the 17th day of the second month (see vss. 19 and 20).

The next time information is found in the following verses

16:22-24 And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moshe. And he said unto them, "This is even that which has spoken YHWH; sabbath a set-apart Sabbath to YHWH tomorrow: bake that which you will bake today, and seethe that you will seethe; and that which remains over lay up for you to be kept until the morning." And they laid it up till the morning, as Moshe bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein.

The sixth day they worked: they gathered mannah, they baked it, they seethed it, they stored it up for the next morning.

The phrase "on the sixth day" in Hebrew is literally "in day the sixth". The context of the verse shows that the sixth day in question was the day of the week. Had it been the sixth day of collecting manna, which it was not, then one could add six plus fifteen equals twenty-one.

This is precisely rocky's error (and others). The day they started to collect the manna was the second day of the week not the first. The day the Sabbath was revealed to them was not Sabbath. In rocky's count the 15th is wrongly called a Sabbath by him and that is why he thinks the twentysecond day of the same month was the next Sabbath.

It was the fifteenth day of the second month when they journeyed, gathered quail, cooked it etc., all of which are forbidden to do on Shabbat. Had it been the Sabbath none of these activities would be allowed them the day the commandment was given. That is also why YHWH waited until the day after Sabbath to reveal it to them; it gave them the remainder of the week (2/15 thru 2/20) to be ready for the Shabbat that came the 21st. In other words, mannah appeared only five times that week, with a double provision on the 20th, which was the sixth day of the week.

Because of the technical difficulties incurrred with the translations, the next six verses I am translating here, with specific reference made to timing. All translations I have read do not reflect what is contained in the Hebrew. In that the word order is retained, I have added italiczed words to make it easier to read, none of which significantly alter the raw Hebrew.

16:25-30 And said Moshe, "You shall Eat it today; for it is a sabbath to YHWH today; you shall not find it in the field. Six days you shall gather it; and in day the seventh, sabbath; none shall be in it.

And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people in day the seventh for to gather, and they found none. And YHWH said unto Moshe, "How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? Seeing that YHWH has given you the Sabbath, therefore He gives you in day the sixth THE BREAD OF DAYS; let every man sabbath in his place, let no man go out of his place in day the seventh." So the people sabbathed in day the seventh.

This conclusively shows that the Hebrew word being translated "two days" is nothing more than a plural word in Hebrew and therefore means two or more days. The Hebrew word for 'two', which is sh'tayim is not found in the Torah in this verse, neither is the word sheni which means second. Simply put yamim is the plural of yom and does not limit numbers except that it is greater than one.

While it originally did say in verse twenty two that a double portion of bread was gathered, literally a two day supply for that particular sixth day and sabbath, it did not suggest that it was always and only to be a two day supply. The people at the time had no prior knowledge that they were to receive an increased supply for the Sabbath. They discovered it and asked Moses about afterwards. The double portion collected that day was enough for that Sabbath, no more no less, just as in the other days of single day provision. What about the following week when Yithro came to visit? That was the 28th, 29th, and/or 30th days of the second month of that particular year. Scripture does not mention the manna at that time but it does mention that on the first day of the third month, the day after the first crescent sighting that the people journeyed from Rephidim to Sinai (Ex. 19:1-2). Again, they did not travel on Shabbat and it appears they waited until after the events of chapter 17 and 18 were over which events, the battle against Amalek and the visit of Yithro while Moshe sat judging during the renewal, lasted only ten days.

Section I I I. Chapters LXXII-LXXXII
The Book of the Heavenly Luminaries
.

[Chapter 72]

ENOCH: 72:1 The book of the courses of the luminaries of the heaven, the relations of each, according to their classes, their dominion and their seasons, according to their names and places of origin, and according to their months, which Uriel, the holy angel, who was with me, who is their guide, showed me; and he showed me all their laws exactly as they are, and how it is with regard to all the years of the world 2 and unto eternity, till the new creation is accomplished which dureth till eternity. And this is the first law of the luminaries: the luminary the Sun has its rising in the eastern portals of the heaven, 3 and its setting in the western portals of the heaven. And I saw six portals in which the sun rises, and six portals in which the sun sets and the moon rises and sets in these portals, and the leaders of the stars and those whom they lead: six in the east and six in the west, and all following each other 4 in accurately corresponding order: also many windows to the right and left of these portals. And first there goes forth the great luminary, named the Sun, and his circumference is like the 5 circumference of the heaven, and he is quite filled with illuminating and heating fire. The chariot on which he ascends, the wind drives, and the sun goes down from the heaven and returns through the north in order to reach the east, and is so guided that he comes to the appropriate (lit. ' that ') portal and 6 shines in the face of the heaven. In this way he rises in the first month in the great portal, which 7 is the fourth [those six portals in the cast]. And in that fourth portal from which the sun rises in the first month are twelve window-openings, from which proceed a flame when they are opened in 8 their season. When the sun rises in the heaven, he comes forth through that fourth portal thirty, 9 mornings in succession, and sets accurately in the fourth portal in the west of the heaven. And during this period the day becomes daily longer and the night nightly shorter to the thirtieth 10 morning. On that day the day is longer than the night by a ninth part, and the day amounts exactly to ten parts and the night to eight parts. And the sun rises from that fourth portal, and sets in the fourth and returns to the fifth portal of the east thirty mornings, and rises from it and sets in the fifth 12 portal. And then the day becomes longer by two parts and amounts to eleven parts, and the night 13 becomes shorter and amounts to seven parts. And it returns to the east and enters into the sixth 14 portal, and rises and sets in the sixth portal one-and-thirty mornings on account of its sign. On that day the day becomes longer than the night, and the day becomes double the night, and the day 15 becomes twelve parts, and the night is shortened and becomes six parts. And the sun mounts up to make the day shorter and the night longer, and the sun returns to the east and enters into the 16 sixth portal, and rises from it and sets thirty mornings. And when thirty mornings are accomplished, 17 the day decreases by exactly one part, and becomes eleven parts, and the night seven. And the sun goes forth from that sixth portal in the west, and goes to the east and rises in the fifth portal for 18 thirty mornings, and sets in the west again in the fifth western portal. On that day the day decreases by two parts, and amounts to ten parts and the night to eight parts. And the sun goes forth from that fifth portal and sets in the fifth portal of the west, and rises in the fourth portal for one- 20 and-thirty mornings on account of its sign, and sets in the west. On that day the day is equalized with the night, [and becomes of equal length], and the night amounts to nine parts and the day to 21 nine parts. And the sun rises from that portal and sets in the west, and returns to the east and rises 22 thirty mornings in the third portal and sets in the west in the third portal. And on that day the night becomes longer than the day, and night becomes longer than night, and day shorter than day till the thirtieth morning, and the night amounts exactly to ten parts and the day to eight 23 parts. And the sun rises from that third portal and sets in the third portal in the west and returns to the east, and for thirty mornings rises 24 in the second portal in the east, and in like manner sets in the second portal in the west of the heaven. And on that day the night amounts to eleven 25 parts and the day to seven parts. And the sun rises on that day from that second portal and sets in the west in the second portal, and returns to the east into the first portal for one-and-thirty 26 mornings, and sets in the first portal in the west of the heaven. And on that day the night becomes longer and amounts to the double of the day: and the night amounts exactly to twelve parts and 27 the day to six. And the sun has (therewith) traversed the divisions of his orbit and turns again on those divisions of his orbit, and enters that portal thirty mornings and sets also in the west 28 opposite to it. And on that night has the night decreased in length by a ninth part, and the night 29 has become eleven parts and the day seven parts. And the sun has returned and entered into the second portal in the east, and returns on those his divisions of his orbit for thirty mornings, rising 30 and setting. And on that day the night decreases in length, and the night amounts to ten parts 31 and the day to eight. And on that day the sun rises from that portal, and sets in the west, and returns to the east, and rises in the third portal for one-and-thirty mornings, and sets in the west of the heaven. 32 On that day the night decreases and amounts to nine parts, and the day to nine parts, and the night 33 is equal to the day and the year is exactly as to its days three hundred and sixty-four. And the length of the day and of the night, and the shortness of the day and of the night arise-through the course 34 of the sun these distinctions are made (lit. ' they are separated '). So it comes that its course becomes 35 daily longer, and its course nightly shorter. And this is the law and the course of the sun, and his return as often as he returns sixty times and rises, i.e. the great luminary which is named the sun, for ever and ever. And that which (thus) rises is the great luminary, and is so named according to 37 its appearance, according as the Lord commanded. As he rises, so he sets and decreases not, and rests not, but runs day and night, and his light is sevenfold brighter than that of the moon; but as regards size they are both equal.

Chapter 73]

1 And after this law I saw another law dealing with the smaller luminary, which is named the Moon. And her circumference is like the circumference of the heaven, and her chariot in which she rides is driven by the wind, and light is given to her in (definite) measure. And her rising and setting change every month: and her days are like the days of the sun, and when her light is uniform (i.e. full) it amounts to the seventh part of the light of the sun. And thus she rises. And her first phase in the east comes forth on the thirtieth morning: and on that day she becomes visible, and constitutes for you the first phase of the moon on the thirtieth day together with the sun in the portal where the sun rises. And the one half of her goes forth by a seventh part, and her whole circumference is empty, without light, with the exception of one-seventh part of it, (and) the 6 fourteenth part of her light. And when she receives one-seventh part of the half of her light, her light 7 amounts to one-seventh part and the half thereof. And she sets with the sun, and when the sun rises the moon rises with him and receives the half of one part of light, and in that night in the beginning of her morning [in the commencement of the lunar day] the moon sets with the sun, and 8 is invisible that night with the fourteen parts and the half of one of them. And she rises on that day with exactly a seventh part, and comes forth and recedes from the rising of the sun, and in her remaining days she becomes bright in the (remaining) thirteen parts.

[Chapter 74]

And I saw another course, a law for her, (and) how according to that law she performs her monthly 2 revolution. And all these Uriel, the holy angel who is the leader of them all, showed to me, and their positions, and I wrote down their positions as he showed them to me, and I wrote down their months 3 as they were, and the appearance of their lights till fifteen days were accomplished. In single seventh parts she accomplishes all her light in the east, and in single seventh parts accomplishes all her 4 darkness in the west. And in certain months she alters her settings, and in certain months she pursues 5 her own peculiar course. In two months the moon sets with the sun: in those two middle portals the 6 third and the fourth. She goes forth for seven days, and turns about and returns again through the portal where the sun rises, and accomplishes all her light: and she recedes from the sun, and in eight 7 days enters the sixth portal from which the sun goes forth. And when the sun goes forth from the fourth portal she goes forth seven days, until she goes forth from the fifth and turns back again in seven days into the fourth portal and accomplishes all her light: and she recedes and enters into the 8 first portal in eight days. And she returns again in seven days into the fourth portal from which the 9, 10 sun goes forth. Thus I saw their position -how the moons rose and the sun set in those days. And if five years are added together the sun has an overplus of thirty days, and all the days which accrue 11 to it for one of those five years, when they are full, amount to 364 days. And the overplus of the sun and of the stars amounts to six days: in 5 years 6 days every year come to 30 days: and the 12 moon falls behind the sun and stars to the number of 30 days. And the sun and the stars bring in all the years exactly, so that they do not advance or delay their position by a single day unto eternity; but complete the years with perfect justice in 364 days. In 3 years there are 1,092 days, and in 5 years 1,820 days, so that in 8 years there are 2,912 days. For the moon alone the days amount in 3 years to 1,062 days, and in 5 years she falls 50 days behind: [i.e. to the sum (of 1,770) there is 5 to be added (1,000 and) 62 days.] And in 5 years there are 1,770 days, so that for the moon the days 6 in 8 years amount to 21,832 days. [For in 8 years she falls behind to the amount of 80 days], all the 17 days she falls behind in 8 years are 80. And the year is accurately completed in conformity with their world-stations and the stations of the sun, which rise from the portals through which it (the sun) rises and sets 30 days.

Notice how it states the first visible part of her is 1/7 of the one half of her.
Brothers there is much wisdom in this part of this book that i fear will be overlooked in these last days. Yacov if you have wisdom in this would you please i ask for you to break it down, THESE ARE THE LAWS OF THE HEAVENS. these are YAHS DAYS and YEARS. Enoch was shown by the very angel of YAH that has the resposability over them.
I am sincerely hoping YAH will give spirit of wisdom to one of our brothers to see this.
The moon is for days and months. when he spoke of the sun he did not once mention day but seasons. The seventh part is the first day than thus the 7/7th part would be the YAHS 7th day, as was created.

Sorry I cut-off my explainations last time --- was preparing for the 7th day sabbath (weekly). I have had a nice refreshing sabbath.

William you said the source I mentioned is unrealiable -- that's an opinion I cannot force. But think about this: the Roman Catholic Church kept the First Day of the week for thousand of years (since the time of Constantine) un-broken. Show me a proof that the days of week was broken -- that I may believe you.

In Luke 4:16-17 we find the messiah kept the sabbath "AS HIS CUSTOM WAS". All around him are Hebrews like him. These hebrews kept the 7th day (weekly) sabbath in the synagogues. Not a single verse you can find that Yahushua reproved them for keeping such a practice. In fact HE joined with them.

In Daniel 9:27 (KJV) was a prohphecy that the messiah was to be "killed" in the midst of the week.

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

Yahushua was killed as the "passover" sacrifice. When was he killed? Definitely not the 7th day of the week because he rose on the 7th day (in the afternoon, just before sunset).

John 19:14 (KJV)
And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

John 19:42 9KJV)
There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.

Luke 23:54 (KJV)
And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.

Lu 23:56 (KJV)
And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Matt. 28:1 (KJV)
In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

As you can see from the above scriptures, Yahushua died during the "PASSOVER". The passover mentioned here was not a sabbath, for his followers then rested on the sabbath according to the scriptures (Luke 23:56). They returned to the sepulchre at the end of the sabbath (Matt. 28:1).

Pause for while.

The scriptures said: "In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover. (Lev. 23:5 - KJV).

Here's the catch.

For Lunar based sabbath, the sabbath days are: 1st, 7th, 14th, 21st, 28th plus the renewal days.

See the above verses, noticed that the PASSOVER time when Yahushua died was a "PREPARATION" (Luke 23:54, John 19:42), after that they rested on the sabbath "ACCORDING TO THE COMMANDMENT" (Luke 23:56). More proof. They came back to the sepulchre after the end of sabbath (Matt. 28:1). The messiah died in the midst of the week as written (Dan. 9:27).

Question:
Now, if the 14th is a sabbath (as per lunar calendar) then why is it that the time Yahushua died, the passover did not fall on the sabbath? Remember, it took 3 days and 3 nights for Yahushua to resurrect from the died. Yahushua resurrected on the 7th day sabbath (Matt. 28:1).

I believed that the 15th mentioned in Ex. 16:1 was a sabbath. Note verse 10.

Ex. 16:10 (KJV)
And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud.

My interpretation: The whole congregation was assembled because it was sabbath then. Furthermore, it said "...behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud." His glory do not appeared on any ordinary days (unless with good reason).

I could be wrong.

Yacov Seedeater, you said:

"My understanding is that the fourth day of creation was the 25th of that month and thus the first Sabbath was at the time of the renewal."

Unbelievable! The 4th day of creation was the 25th of that month? Where did you get this idea?

Let's take a look at Genesis 1 again.

Genesis 1 (KJV)
v. 1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

v. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

v. 3. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

v. 4. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

v. 5. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Stop here.

Verse 5, HE created the light Day -- first day. This was the beginning of the creation. NO MOON YET. Since NO MOON was around it is impossible to placed the "first day" as the "22nd of the month". How did you arrived at 22nd as the 1st day of creation? The MOON WAS NOT created yet!

Thanks for modifiying my chart. There was a little error on it. (viz. "day 1").

Let us go for more evidences.

DAILY OFFERINGS (Numbers 28:3-8):
"...two lambs of the first year without spot day by day, for a continual burnt offering." (verse 3)

"...tenth part of an ephah of flour for a meat offering, mingled with the fourth part of an hin of beaten oil." (verse 4)

WEEKLY SABBATH OFFERINGS (Numbers 28:9,10): "...two tenth deals of flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, and the drink offering thereof." (verse 9)

NEW MOON OFFERINGS (Numbers 28:11-15)
"...beginnings of your months ye shall offer a burnt offering unto the LORD; two young bullocks, and one ram, seven lambs of the first year without spot;" (verse 11)

"And three tenth deals of flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, for one bullock; and two tenth deals of flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, for one ram;" (verse 12)

"And a several tenth deal of flour mingled with oil for a meat offering unto one lamb; for a burnt offering of a sweet savour, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD." (verse 13)

"And their drink offerings shall be half an hin of wine unto a bullock, and the third part of an hin unto a ram, and a fourth part of an hin unto a lamb: this is the burnt offering of every month throughout the months of the year." (verse 14)

Plus daily offering. (verse 15)

NOTE:
"...this is the burnt offering of every month throughout the months of the year."

FEAST OF UNLEAVENED BREAD OFFERINGS(Numbers 28:17-25)
"...two young bullocks, and one ram, and seven lambs of the first year: they shall be unto you without blemish:" (verse 19)

"And their meat offering shall be of flour mingled with oil: three tenth deals shall ye offer for a bullock, and two tenth deals for a ram;" (verse 20)

"A several tenth deal shalt thou offer for every lamb, throughout the seven lambs: (verse 21). And one goat for a sin offering, to make an atonement for you. (verse 22)

Plus daily offerings. (verse 23)

PENTECOST OFFERING(Numbers 28:26-31)
"...two young bullocks, one ram, seven lambs of the first year;" (verse 27)

"And their meat offering of flour mingled with oil, three tenth deals unto one bullock, two tenth deals unto one ram, (verse 28).A several tenth deal unto one lamb, throughout the seven lambs; (verse 29).

Plus daily offerings (verse 30).

Let us study Nunbers 28.

The offerings for daily and weekly were about the same.

The offerings for NEW MOONS, UNLEAVENED BREAD and FIRSTFRUITS were also about the same.

Compare the offering for "Daily" and "New Moons". See the difference?

The analogy.

If the first day of the month ("NEW MOON DAY") is the sabbath, why is it that the amount of offerings WERE NOT THE SAME OR SIMILAR WITH THAT OF THE DAILY OFFERINGS? What do you think Yacov Seedeater?

Well I guess this post is already very long. I will have to pause her. More evidence to come....

JayAr

................

What I mean is:
If "NEW MOON DAY" is the first day of the month..." NOT new moon is a sabbath.

My apology for error.

I said my understanding JR, not 'thus saith ...."
I know you appreciate the difference.

Underlying that concept is the day the moon was placed in the sky we are not plainly told what phase it is. However, because the recording of the original Sabbath events does not conclude with "And evening and morning were day seven," as one would expect because each of the previous six ended with that phrase (respective to their number of course), it leads me to believe the original Sabbath was the last day of the month, the 28th, followed by renewal days, which may extended it beyond one day. This is reasoned from lunar timekeeping established elsewhere in the Scriptures (first introduced in Gen. 1:14-19) and many disagree; but now you have my reason for believing this way.

Of course months did not exist then but that is not what we are looking at. What we are properly addressing here, if worded correctly is "What phase was the moon at when it was placed in the heavens on day four of the creation?" I am calling that phase, 'the 25th day of the month'.

Time for a new thread, eh?

"New Moons" (Rosh Chodesh 'head of renewal) are the first days of the month but are not Sabbaths except for Yom Teruah, which is a Moed-appointed time but not a chag-feast day.

You have noticed the offerings for Rosh Chodesh, Chag haMotzi-Unleavened Bread, and FirstFruits-Shavuot resemble each other.

Their relationship to each other is that they consecrate first things: Rosh Chodesh Yom Echad, the first day of each month, first day of the first week in each month, and also the first day of the year in each year where applicable are all the same day, hence Yom Echad or 'day unified' as in Ber. 1:5 is called; also the firstfruits of barley and wheat with respect to Unleavened Bread and Shavuot.

Hope you followed this.

Now would you kindly address the "day the Passover fall during Yahushua's death".

And so I cannot allow "Jews" to be my observers in Jerusalem to
determine the calendar! On the other hand we ("lost" Israelites
who migrated and are found across Europe as so-called "gentiles")
do not have our own observers there specifically trying to restore
the original calendar.

Note that most of Israel of all 12 tribes went into Assyrian captivity,
(2 Kings 18:11-13... to 19:30, only a few left)BECAUSE WE REJECTED GOD
and thus we became pagans and established a different Sabbath and Roman
calendar and holidays... such as Mithra's day Dec 25, which the early
"church" made into Christ's birthday so we could keep such holidays!

So we created our own problem of no calendar and no watchers!

And consider that God is a very methodical and precise mind
- indeed it is stated He is not the author of confusion! -
who runs the universe like clockwork... and so it is most
logical that when he gave the "new moon" as a time marker
for the calendar, he did so with the actual conjunction in
mind at the actual precise moment. But given the fact the
early men didn't have the observatories and calculation
possible these days, he would accept man's best approximation
via observers of a new moon crescent in Jerusalem... which
was subject to weather and honest disagreement from different
viewpoints in and near the city.

But now we have science that can give exact calculations
of the new moon (and spring solstice to start the year,
again without relying on "Jews" there interpreting grains)
and so it is most logical to use that.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stephen:
I believe that the conjunction is the scriptural new moon. Read the post that I just bumped forward titled the new moon and Enoch and see what you think.

Stephen

---

My original premise still stands that the conjunction moon is not easily observed and we know how it was done in the first century with the sighting of the crescent moon so to me this is an open and shut case.

------------------
David ben Yacob

[This message has been edited by david_ben_yacob (edited 10-04-2005).]