posted 12-26-2001 09:48 PM            

The Hebrew word for "he will save" [as in, "She will give birth to a son, and you are to name him Yeshua, because he will save his people from their sins."] is "yoshia'," which has the same Hebrew root (yud-shin-'ayin) as the name Yeshua (yud-shin-vav-'ayin). Thus the Messiah's name is explained on the basis of what he will do. Etymologically the name Yeshua' is a contraction of the name Y'hoshua' (English "Joshua"), which means YHWH saves." [Take out the "ho" from "Y'hoshua" and you get "Y'shua".] It is also the masculine form of the Hebrew word "yeshu'ah," which means "salvation." (Jewish New Testament Commentary on Matthew 1:21)

Now we have to deal with some Hebrew vocabulary. We will be looking at several variations of some Hebrew names and words that deal with "salvation", and compare them to the Sacred Name itself...

The Sacred Name: Yud-Heh-Vav-Heh
Y'hoshua (Joshua): Yud-Heh-Vav-Shin-Vav-Ayin
Yoshia (he will save) Yud-Vav-Shin-Yud-Ayin
Yeshu'ah (salvation) Yud-Shin-Vav-Ayin-Heh
Yeshua/Y'shua Yud-Shin-Vav-Ayin

As you can see from the chart, both Y'hoshua and the Sacred Name begin with the same three letters (yud-heh-vav, right-to-left). In the Sacred Name, we know from other places in Scripture that the letters (yud-heh) are pronounced "Yah" ("Yah" is an abreviation for the Sacred Name, and is used in several places in Scripture. This is an acceptable, although rarely used, form of the Sacred Name). The Sacred Name Movement teaches that the name of the savior is (yud-heh-vav-shin-vav-ayin) and that the same two letters as at the beginning of (yud-heh-vav-heh) are pronounced the same way in the Savior's name: "Yah". This is what the Sacred Name Movement considers as the Sacred Name being "in" the Savior's name and the Savior's name being the "same as" the Creator's.

But let's look at the so-called Savior's name again: Yahshua. The "sh" sound comes from the letter (shin). So we have "Yah" - "sh"... But do you notice that there is another letter between the (yud-heh) and the (shin)? It's called a vav. In the Sacred Name, it is claimed to be pronounced like a "W", as in "Yah-weh". But in the savior's name, according to the Sacred Name Movement, the vav is simply dropped. Why must it be dropped in order for the Sacred Name Movement's claims to be true? If the vav remains intact, it changes the syllabication of the name of "Yah-shu-a" to "Y-ho-shu-a".

Case in point, the (vav) is actually pronounced like a vowel in this case -- an "o", as in "Y'hoshua" and "yoshia". What is misunderstood by the Sacred Name Movement is that while the first syllable of the sacred name is ("Yah"), the first syllable of Y'hoshua is nothing more than the yud, a short "y'" or "ye", and the second syllable comprises (heh-vav), pronounced "ho". So there are two syllables that precede the (shin) -- "Y'" - "ho"... and then, "shua".
Correct = Y' ho shu a

Wrong! = Yah (dropped o-sound) shu a

So now we see that the similarity in the Sacred Name of God and Y'hoshua are in letter only and not in pronunciation after all. Indeed, the Savior's name embodies what he came to do and what he came to be: salvation. His name is (yud-shin-vav-ayin) and both "Yeshua" or "Y'shua" would be acceptable English transliterations of the Hebrew. The name is pronounced yeh-shoo'-ah, and when spoken most authentically, the "yeh" is short and somewhat in the back of the throat. (end of Quote)}

Lets look again at what David Stern is teaching. He said: Quote: If the vav remains intact, it changes the syllabication of the name of "Yah-shu-a" to "Y-ho-shu-a".

David Stern says while the first syllable of the sacred name is ("Yah"), the first syllable of Y'hoshua is nothing more than the yud, a short "y'" or "ye", and the second syllable comprises (heh-vav), pronounced "ho". So there are two syllables that precede the (shin) -- "Y'" - "ho"... and then, "shua".

David Stern agrees that Yah is a syllable, but he intern says :"the first syllable of Y'hoshua is nothing more than the yud, a short "y'" or "ye", " in "Y'hoshua" {Joshua}. Yet the beginning of "Y'hoshua" contains the forms of the sacred name "YH" and "YHW" in the name of Yahweh's servant. The first syllable in the full form of the sacred name is "Yah" and David Stern agrees this is a syllable. Removing or adding Hebrew letters to the sacred short form {syllable "YH"} of the name does not change how the short form is transliterated, because yod-hey is a name of the Father and not just letters. The Name of the Father is transliterated as YAH, and when the other letters are added to complete another sacred form of the name as given from the Father, the name YAH will still be transliterated, {because it is a name} with the other letters added that complete the other sacred forums of the name. These other two forms are YHW --yod-hey-waw-- and YHWH --yod-hey-waw-hey-. The forum YHW is used for the name of his people and servants. And the name YAH will still be transliterated, because it is a sacred name. Examples of this are as follows. Yaho-shua {Joshua} YAH-hudah, , YAH-servants name.

Therefore if you do not mess with the name Yahweh has given to his people and even the forms of His sacred name in their names , then the name of the Father and his name in his servants will be pronounced as and with the sacred name given and be transliterated as YAH Yaho-shua and Yahweh and Yahshua. The forms of the sacred name of the Creator will be carried forth in the sound of the name when it is read as originally given, because the letters "YH" YHW" YHYH {forms of sacred name} is in the spelling of His name and in His servants names.

But if you do what David Stern teaches you will change the form of the sacred name given in Yahweh's servants names -yod-hey-waw and make void the short form "YH" by separating the -- yod -- from the --hey--. Then make a new syllable in the name, by taking the form of sacred name and make the "Y" nothing more than a yud, a short "y'" or "ye", then add the new syllable by ripping apart the short sacred form "YH" then add {what has been ripped apart} the ---heh--to the--waw-- for the new syllable -hey-waw- "Ho. Then you have Ye-hoshua. Then if you have ripped apart the sacred form of Yahweh's name so it will not be pronounced when read; You must continue this practice/tradition and rip apart the full form of the sacred name in the same way. Then you will have the names "Ye-hovah" or "Ye-howeh," or "Ye-howah," so when it is read, the sacred name will not be pronounced or heard and this will be according to the traditions of the Rabbis. David Stern has followed these same traditions of the Rabbis. And this is why the sacred form of the sacred name is not pronounced in the name Yahweh's servants names.

Stern has even changed how the sacred name is pronounced in the servant Yoshua {Joshua}. He has made the poetic form of YAH as Yahweh gave it "yod-hey" void in the name "Joshua" and David Stern has changed the original form and made "YAH's" name into a -yod- as in "ye," yet it is a name and is spelt in the Hebrew text as "yod-hey". Well at least they did not use a name that contained the sacred and ripped it apart' for the name of the Mashiach, so the sacred name would not be spoken when read or said. Yes, they do not even use a name that contains the forms of the sacred name. The name "Yeshua" is what they teach for HaMashiach and their reference for this name is {OT:3442} with a simple meaning {future tense} of "He will save." It does not contain the sacred forms yod-hey- or yod-hey-waw.

OT:3442 Yeshuwa` (yay-shoo'-ah); for OT:3091; he will save; Jeshua, the name of ten Israelites, also of a place in Palestine: KJV - Jeshua.

The name Jeshua {and Jesus} is a common name and even, ten Israelites, had this name. This name was also used for the name of a place in Palestine: This means that the name Yeshua identifies 10 Yisraeli's and a town in Palestine. However, the scriptures teach that the name of the Mashiach is above every name. This means that the name Yeshua {Jesus} is not the name of the Mashiach, because this would make the Mashiach's name equal with their names and not above their names. The Rabbis would not stand for somebody using the name YHWH for their name, right? Nor would Christian leaders stand for 10 people in each Church that have the name "Jesus/Yeshua." Is Jesus coming to Church today? No, he is out sick today! LOL!! Even the Spanish culture has a tradition of naming their children the common name of Jesus and it is spelt with English letter as "Jesus." Simple common sense and scripture proves that the names Yeshua and Jesus is a great error, and are not for the name of the Mashiach of Yisrael!

NT:2424 Iesous (ee-ay-sooce'); of Hebrew origin [OT:3091]; Jesus (i.e. Jehoshua), the name of our Lord and two (three) other Israelites:

Now if you are going to use a name for salvation, you must follow what the scriptures teach and not use a common name, but use one that is above all other name.

Phil 2:9 Wherefore Elohim also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

The only name that is above all other names would be that of the Father's name. This simply means that the Father would give a form of His sacred name to the Mashiach. This is much like people today who receive their names from their father. They have inherited their names from their father's name. Well, the scriptures proves that Yahshua inherited his name from the Father too, and this name is superior to theirs, and even superior to the common names Yeshua and Jesus. For the names Yeshua and Jesus do not contain the form of the sacred name.

Heb 1:3-4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

As I have said, "if you are going to use a name for salvation, you must use one that is above all other name." The sacred forms of the sacred name have been recorded in the Hebrew scriptures and historical records and even in the speech of people. For Yahweh's said his name would be a memorial unto all generations.

Ex 3:15 And Elohim said moreover unto Moses, Thus shall thou say unto the children of Israel, Yahweh Elohim of your fathers, the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

Ps 135:13 Thy name, O Yahweh, endureth for ever; and thy memorial, O Yahweh, throughout all generations.

Therefore we know that Yahweh cannot lie and He has proven this fact by even preserving the short form of his name in "HalleluYah," through the speech and songs of all people, tongues and nations who praise Elohim. "HalleluYah" in any language means praise to YAH.

Through study we can see that Yahweh gave a form of his sacred name in the names of His people/servants. Each of these names represents different meanings of their names from the form of the sacred name. However, non of these names used have the very meaning of "salvation", but we must have the salvation of YAH. This type of salvation is different from the meaning of the name "Yeshua" {OT:3442}, which has a simple meaning {future tense} of "He will save." For Yeshua is a common name anyway, so why should it be used for the name of the Mashiach of Yisrael? Is it because we have to follow the traditions of the Rabbis who have ripped apart the sacred name of YH, YHW, YHWH, so it will net be spoken or heard when read as their traditions teach?

The type of salvation I speak of, is one that has the meaning of something completed, saved, deliverance, victory, health, prosperity. The meaning of this salvation could only be performed by one who represents the completion of this type of salvation with the things described.

OT:3444 yeshuw` ah (yesh-oo'-aw); feminine passive participle of OT:3467; something saved, i.e. (abstractly) deliverance; hence, aid, victory, prosperity: KJV - deliverance, health, help (-ing), salvation, save, saving (health), welfare.

Ex 15:2 YAH is my strength and my song; he has become my salvation/yesh-oo'-aw. He is my Elohim, and I will praise him, my father's Elohim, and I will exalt him.

Isa 12:2 Behold, Elohim is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for YAH Yahweh is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation/yesh-oo'-aw.

As I have said, non of the names used have the very meaning of "salvation" OT:3444. This type of salvation and its meaning is only reserved for one who could do such things. The person who was able to perform this type salvation with it's meaning, can only be YAH through Yahshua. Even the writer of the the book of Exodus proves these facts.

Ex 15:2 YAH is my strength and my song; he has become my salvation/yesh-oo'-aw. He is my Elohim, and I will praise him, my father's Elohim, and I will exalt him.

For we know the time would come and Yahweh would give his sacred name to the people for and for people to use and call on for salvation.

Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of Yahweh shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as Yahweh hath said, and in the remnant whom Yahweh shall call.

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of Yahweh shall be saved.

The time finally came and Yahweh's sacred name could be used in salvation. However the full form of of the sacred name "YHWH"- -"yod-hey-way-hay" was not used by the early assembly for the name of the Mashiach, because this forum of the sacred name is reserved for the name of the Father. There is no record of anyone calling Yahshua by the name of YHWH. Therefore just as the shorter form of Yahweh's sacred name was in front and at the end of His peoples names, the name of the Mashiach would also contain a form of the sacred name. As I have said, no one had the title yesh-oo'-aw as a name or even part of their name. There is only one who is worthy of such a title as yesh-oo'-aw. Since YAH is the only one worthy of such a title as this.....

Ex 15:2 YAH is my strength and my song; he has become my salvation/yesh-oo'-aw. He is my Elohim, and I will praise him, my father's Elohim, and I will exalt him.

....and has full filled such a title through the Mashiach, with the form of the sacred name for use in salvation, for the name can only be YAH-sh-oo'-aw. For he is the only worthy one who can take such a title and make it worthy of a name that can be used with the form of the sacred name, and apply it for use in salvation. This is why the sacred name used in the full form of the Mashiach cannot be found from the Old Testament scriptures, for it was not given until Yahshua was born.

Isa 45:21-23 Declare what is to be, present it--let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, Yahweh? And there is no Elohim apart from me, a righteous Elohim and a Savior; there is none but me. "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am Elohim and there is no other. By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear.

Phil 2:9-11 Therefore Elohim exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Yahshua Mashiach is YAH,
to the glory of Elohim the Father.

No, one will bow to the names Yeshua, hey-seus, yay-sous, Jesus, for they do not even contain the sacred form of the name that was given to call on and use for salvation, nor do these names represent the salvation Yahshua performed.

Acts 4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

Please believe what the scriptures teach!

Praise YAHweh for the salvation of YAH, for YAHshua is the only one who is worth to have such a name!

Another look at what Kevin Geoffrey's promoting through David Sterns teachings.

Quote: So now we see that the similarity in the Sacred Name of God and Y'hoshua are in letter only and not in pronunciation after all. (end of quote)

It is in letter only, because they have changed how it is to be pronounced, by removing the yod- from the -hey- and have added the -hey--to the waw-- to make a new syllable, so the sacred name will not be pronounced. Yes, we know you have butchered the sacred name.

Quote: Indeed, the Savior's name embodies what he came to do and what he came to be: salvation. (end of quote}

No, the name "Yeshua" does not contain the Savior's name even in the "letter only" as you teach. It does not begin with yod-hey-waw- but it begins with -yod-shin- and is void of the sacred name to begin with. The name "Yeshua" does not even contain the salvation performed by YAH through Yahshua.

Quote: His name is (yud-shin-vav-ayin) and both "Yeshua" or "Y'shua" would be acceptable English transliterations of the Hebrew.(end of quote}

No, it is not acceptable, the name Yeshua does not contain even the letters of the form of the sacred name.

No, it is not acceptable, the name "Y'shua" has been altered so the sacred name will not be pronounced when spoken.

No, it is not acceptable to change the sacred name to another sound, and make a new name.

Quote: The name is pronounced yeh-shoo'-ah, and when spoken most authentically, the "yeh" is short and somewhat in the back of the throat. (end of quote)

No, the name is "Yah-shoo'-ah." Twist it back to how it was original given so when it is read YAH's name can be heard and the people can call on his name for salvation as the scriptures teach!

It does not take a Hebrew scholar to identify and know that changing the forms of the sacred name, so it will not be transliterated, heard when read is a traditions of the Rabbis.

It does not take a builder to identify that a home has been remodeled. It does not take a builder to identify that a home has been ripped apart and changed from its original form. It just takes common sense to see these facts. It does not take a builder to put back together what has been ripped apart it just takes a love for the trade. With this said, you cannot reach into the heavens and rip apart the sacred name so it will not be spoken, but you can do it on earth through the traditions of the Rabbis!

Shalom
Daron

posted 12-27-2001 12:35 AM         

Shalom to you!

If you are going to lecture on linguistics, please get your facts together first. Yud-he-vav-shin-(vav)-ayin does not spell Yahshua. It spells Yahoshua/Yahushua. Yahshua is purely an ENGLISH abbreviation of the name of Yahoshua. In Hebrew the he, not the vav would be dropped, giving the correct Hebrew abbreviation as Yoshua. This Hebrew abbreviation, although used in translations (in place of Yahoshua) and post Biblical Hebrew literature, is never used in the Scriptures themselves. The Biblical authors use yud-he-shin-vav-ayin (Yshua) instead of Yoshua. Why you ask? I believe it was because it sounded identical to Yoshua, and therefore should be prounouced as Yashua and not Yeshua or Yayshua.

In His Service,

posted 12-27-2001 01:09 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Shlomoh:
Daron,

Shalom to you!

If you are going to lecture on linguistics, please get your facts together first. Yud-he-vav-shin-(vav)-ayin does not spell Yahshua. It spells Yahoshua/Yahushua. Yahshua is purely an ENGLISH abbreviation of the name of Yahoshua. In Hebrew the he, not the vav would be dropped, giving the correct Hebrew abbreviation as Yoshua. This Hebrew abbreviation, although used in translations (in place of Yahoshua) and post Biblical Hebrew literature, is never used in the Scriptures themselves. The Biblical authors use yud-he-shin-vav-ayin (Yshua) instead of Yoshua. Why you ask? I believe it was because it sounded identical to Yoshua, and therefore should be prounouced as Yashua and not Yeshua or Yayshua.

In His Service,

Shlomoh

---

Shalom Shlomoh

Thanks for the reply.

Did I write or say: Yud-he-vav-shin-(vav)-ayin spells Yahshua?

Why does the -he- need to be dropped, since -yod-hey- is the short from of YAH's name? Should we remove YAH's name from His servants name and how it is pronounced from his servants name?

What does yod-hey---shin-waw-ayin-tau-kaph- spell in English?

What does yod-hey---shin-waw-ayin-tau--beth spell in English?

The beth and the kaph look alot alike.

Thanks for your time!

Shalom

posted 12-28-2001 02:19 PM         

The following comments are in no way dependent on the opinions of David Stern or anyone who quotes him. Rather, they are based on the Masoretic text and a knowledge of Biblical Hebrew grammar such as found in standard references like Weingreen, Seow, and Gesenius.

In the Greek NT the Messiah’s name is written as iota-eta-sigma-omicron-upsilon-sigma (Iesous).This is the same word that is used in the LXX to transliterate the Hebrew names yod-hei-waw-shin-ayin/yod-hei-waw-shin-waw-ayin (Y’hoshua) and yod-shin-waw-ayin (Yeshua).The spelling of Y’hoshua with two waw’s occurs only rarely and is said to be plene while the spelling with one waw is the usual spelling and is said to be defective. It is not uncommon in the Tanakh for a word to appear with both a plene and a defective spelling. In fact, the word “tol’dot” (generations) appears in the Tanakh with four different spellings!

It is first necessary to understand syllabification. The word “Y’hoshua” is a 3 syllable word. The 1st syllable is yod, the 2nd syllable is hei-waw, and the 3rd syllable is shin-ayin. Hebrew generally places the accent on the last syllable. The exceptions are classes of words such as segolate nouns or words that maintain the accent on the root after adding suffixes. The accent in “Y’hoshua” is on the shin-ayin.Thus, the 1st syllable is 2 syllables prior to the accent, and since it is an open syllable (it is not closed by a consonant) it cannot take a long vowel.Therefore, the vowel that would have been a qamtz (long “a”) is replaced by a vocal sh’wa (represented in transliteration by either “’” or “e”). Such a shortening of vowels in the initial syllable of a word is characteristic of Hebrew and in no way represents a conspiracy to hide the Sacred Name.

A point that I like to emphasize is that ayin is a consonant. In modern Hebrew ayin is treated as silent, but anciently it was pronounced as a gulping sound (there is no corresponding sound in English and hence no symbol in the English alphabet). The 3rd syllable of “Y’hoshua” is composed of shin with its vocalization, which is a “u” sound and the final ayin. Since the vowel in this syllable is not an “a” class vowel a very short “a” sound (called a furtive patakh) is inserted before the ayin to facilitate the pronunciation of the ayin. The furtive patakh is not a true vowel, and the ayin with its furtive patakh is not a separate syllable and is not stressed.

Finally, yod-shin-waw-ayin is properly transliterated as “Yeshua”. The vowel that vocalizes the yod is a tzere, which is a long “e”. In modern Hebrew both the tzere and the segol are prononced like the “e” in “egg”. Anciently the tzere was pronounced liked the “ie” in “neighbor”. But since the 1st syllable is unaccented the distinction is minor. The form “Y’shua” does not have scriptural support and perhaps comes about with a confusion with the word “y’shu’ah”, which is a feminine noun meaning salvation.

B’rakhot

ThePhysicist

posted 12-29-2001 10:45 AM            

Not all Aramaic scholars agree yod-shin-waw-ayin should be transliterated Yeshua. For example Victor Alexander www.v-a.com/bible/ says it is Eashoa in his note on Matthew 1:16. Herb Jahn also in his Aramaic translation uses Yahshua. They may be in the minority but they are there.

To me it only makes sence that Yahushua would be shortened to Yashua or Yahshua not Yeshua.

posted 12-29-2001 04:17 PM         

David says:

To me it only makes sense that Yahushua would be shortened to Yashua or Yahshua not Yeshua.

But that is my point. "Yahushua" is not proper Hebrew (and is not supported by the pointing in the Masoretic text). A long vowel is not appropriate in an open, propretonic syllable, see for example Seow pg 19-20. The phenomena of vowel reduction in syllables far removed from the accented syllable is so common in Hebrew that it hardly needs to be pointed out to those familiar with Hebrew. It is commonly called the "third from the end rule".

As has been repeatedly pointed out on this forum, "Yahshua" would be spelled yod-hei-shin-waw-ayin. Such a form never appears in the Hebrew Scriptures. In is commonly understood that "Yahshua" has its roots with a SN group from Salem, WV around 1930. It is not Hebrew. It is based on a theological opinion, not manuscript evidence.

The form "Eashoa" appears implausible based on the ordinary rules of pronunciation. A yod in the initial position is always a consonant (y) and never a mater ("e" or "i"}. Furthermore, if the yod were a mater then there would need to be an alef (or ayin in modern Hebrew) following it in order for an "a" sound to immediately follow an "e" sound.

I emphasize that my opinions derive from a knowledge of Biblical Hebrew and not from reading the discussions of others. As for Victor Alexander and Herb Jahn, I have never heard them quoted in a scholarly context. What are their credentials? Do they teach in a university or seminary? Have they written any text books? Finally, it is acknowledged by scholars that the Aramaic NT is a translation from the Greek. While a reference to the Aramaic translation can shed light on certain passages in the Gospels, a translation of the NT from the Aramaic is of questionable value.

B'rakhot

ThePhysicist

posted 12-29-2001 06:31 PM            

And just when were the vowel points invented and inserted into the Masoritic text?

posted 12-29-2001 11:38 PM         

The vowel points and accents represent the oral tradition of how the Tanakh was to be read and understood in synagogue. The Masoretes didn't invent a pronunciation. They merely put into writing the existing tradition. The text probably assumed its current form with vowel points and accents in the 9th and 10th centuries. The Masoretes worked in Tiberias, Israel.

If you do not agree with the Masoretic pointing, where do you get your vocalization? How do you know that yod-hei is pronounced "Yah" or that yod-hei-waw at the end of a name is "yahu" as for example in "Eliyahu haNavi"? As I have stated before, the reduction of the vowel in the 1st syllable of "Y'hoshua" reflects a common occurrence in Hebrew. The rule represents a normal characteristic of human speech. If the accent is on the "shua" then the vowel in the 1st syllable is naturally pronounced as a half-vowel (sh'wa). I suspect that persons who assert that the pronunciation of Messiah's name is "Yahushua" are in fact placing the accent on the wrong syllable.

ThePhysicist

posted 12-30-2001 01:23 AM            

The four vowels of the tetragramaton give us a good example of how phonetic the Hebrew language is. Yod Hay is Yah and Yod-hay-uau is Yahu even in cuniform and Assyrian as well as Chaldean and Hebrew. This thing of the Yeho beginnings and the Yahu endings seem to be an invention of anti-Messiah Jewish scholars.When you find these names written in other languages you find that they are not pronounced this way according to the studies I have seen, just as Yahueh is not Iehouah/Yehouah as the Pope's confessor using the confusing vowel points transliterated this precious name. The first three letters of Yahushua are the same as Yahueh. It seems obvius to me that this is the case. Yemenite Jews do not use vowel points as do not the Falashas which all recognize Yahueh as the basic pronunciation of the tetragramaton with no confusing vowel points. The Samaritans have a Paleo Hebrew text as old as Ezra and Nehemyahu even though it is obviously interpolated with comments about Mount Gerizim, with no vowel point and they have no trouble reading it. The oral Torah arguement is so much fluff since it is never mentioned before the Babylonian captivity and never is mentioned by Ezra or Nehemyahu on their return to the land of Israel. It is a way for the Rabbis to control the people and not allow the Cohen and those Leuites to be in charge of teaching the people of the covanant.

posted 12-30-2001 09:17 AM         

No time for a long reply at this time, but I do wish to comment on the remark:

The four vowels of the tetragramaton give us a good example of how phonetic the Hebrew language is.

The simple fact is that hei, yod, and waw were not used as as matres lectiones (vowel letters) until the 9th century BCE, first hei then later yod and waw. Furthermore, hei functions as a mater only at the end of a word and yod never functions as a mater in the initial position. Since the tetragrammaton dates to the time of Mosheh, say 14th century BCE, we see that the tetragrammaton existed as a written form for about 500 years before yod, hei, or waw could be a vowel letter. The tetragrammaton is not 4 vowels!

The confusion exists because when the Greeks adapted the Semitic alef-bet to the Greek language, they used the hei, yod, and waw as vowels because (1) the sounds represented by those letters did not exist in Greek and (2) unlike Hebrew, written Greek requires symbols for vowels. Thus, to Greeks the tetragrammaton did look like 4 vowels.

posted 12-31-2001 11:03 AM            

....." The Hiding of Yahweh's Name "
....." The Masorites added the vowel points to the accepted Hebrew Text, did not 'remove' Yahweh's Name from the Scriptures. They did, however, point the Four Letter Name of Yahweh with the vowel marks of either Elohim or Adonay--pagan names of gods which had been 'accepted' for hundreds of years effectually establishing in their writings, what had previously been only an 'oral custom'!

....." According to the inspired prophecies, the Messiah's Name was to MEAN: Yahweh is Salvation; which is exactly what the Name Yahshua means! This was of utmost importance, for the Scriptures openly proclaim there is only ONE NAME given on earth, through which all men may achieve salvation (Acts 4:10-12), and that NAME is 'Yahshua'-- 'Yahweh is Salvation!' Any name, other than the correct Name, will not suffice."

....." Our Messiah Himself stated His mission was to proclaim WHO our Savior is--YAHWEH! (Yahchanan (John) Chapter 17). Obviously, our Messiah's very Name would state Who our Savior is; and the Name of our Messiah makes this distinction:'Yahweh is Salvation', or 'YAHWEH IS OUR SAVIOR'. That Name is YAHSHUA. (Gesenius' Hebrew Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament, pp. 339)."

Shalom !
Lavi Chagyah

posted 12-31-2001 11:36 AM         

I will repeat a previous question. If you reject the Masoretic vocalization, how do you obtain your vocalization? How do you know that yod-hei is pronounced "Yah" or that the yod-hei-waw at the end of a name is pronounced "yahu" as in "Eliyahu haNavi".

Here are some common words from the Tanakh that contain the same letters as the tetragrammaton. Please tell me how to pronounce them and what they mean based on your system of understanding:

yod-hei-yod-hei = ?

yod-hei-yod-waw

waw-hei-yod-hei = ?

waw-yod-hei-yod = ?

These are all words a beginning Torah reader knows. Do you?

ThePhysicist

p.s. I have never claimed that the points on the tetragrammaton are the ones that go with yod-hei-waw-hei. It is well understood that the are meant to be an instruction to read the name as Adonai or Elohim as the case may be.

posted 01-02-2002 11:12 AM            

Please review this data !

....." OHR SOMAYACH'S ASK THE RABBI
Issue #333 January 5, 2002 / 21 Tevet 5762
Parshat Shmot
=====================================
Contents:
Where have all the Vowels Gone?
=====================================

Where have all the Vowels Gone?
From: Eran Cooper
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dear Rabbi,
Some friends and I were sitting around yesterday discussing...well, something, and I mentioned - I don't remember why - that there were no vowels written down in the Torah. Yet, I was at a loss to explain why. This is something probably knew at one time, but have forgotten. So, how come there's no vowels written down in Torah?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dear Eran Cooper,
There are several reasons that the Torah has no vowels: The simple reason is that the Hebrew alphabet doesn't have any! Not only the Torah, but the Mishna, Talmud and all classic Torah commentaries were written without vowels.

Vowel sounds are sometimes shown as dots under the letters, but they aren't necessary. Just as you can read tricky English words - like psychic, rhythm, and queue - without looking in a dictionary, Hebrew speakers can read Hebrew without the dots. Today Israelis read menus, soup cans, and street signs with no
vowels.

But there's a deeper answer: One whack with a hammer can shatter a rock into a thousand fragments, and each word of the Torah has thousands of meanings. Some of these hidden meanings are revealed by reading the words using various vowel combinations.

For example, the Hebrew phrase for "In the beginning" can be read to mean that G-d created a single focal point from which the universe expanded.

If the vowels were written in the Torah, each word would have a fixed meaning, closed to other interpretations. But the vowels are absent, allowing for various readings and deeper interpretations of every word.

Another idea: Hebrew is a holy language, and the alphabet, including even the shapes of letters, contains important lessons. (Example: Lamed is the tallest letter and it means "teach." This reminds us that leaders need to set a good example, because people learn from their example.)

The absence of vowels has many lessons. For example, the letters of a word are like its body. The vowels are like its soul. The soul is invisible but it gives life to the body; so, too, the vowels remain unwritten yet they breathe life and meaning into the words.

The Torah is not just a book; it's an interactive medium. The absence of vowels beckons us to become partners with the Torah, to breathe life into its letters. In return, the Torah, which is a "Tree of Life," breathes life into us.

Sources: see "The Wisdom of the Hebrew Alphabet," Mesorah
Publications (ArtScroll).

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...Hope this has been a bit helpful !

Shalom!
Lavi Chagyah