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Author Topic:   CHRISTIANITY DOES VIRGINITY
Lou

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posted 09-28-1999 12:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lou   Click Here to Email Lou     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
I was prompted by "The Christian Commoner" (a.k.a. The CC) to do a camel of a research on the subject of virginity. I am not bothered by the gnats at the moment. BTW, I am not dealing at all on the subject of the virgin birth. In the last few days I did some extensive reading on the early church fathers, again. I was trying to detect if there was any time in history in which "Christianity" was HaTorah observant. In the process, I learned many incredible things about Christianity that is being swept under the rug by today's Christians.

The Mother Christian Church and possibly a few of her daughters still practice some kind of virginity. Up to recent history, there were a few Protestant groups in America practicing absolute virginity, but they disappeared along with their virtues. In the days of the early church fathers virginity was one of the hottest issues affecting all Christians, especially young girls. This subject of virginity comes up throughout the NT. Are we missing something for not dealing with this subject? Shaul/Paul's technique of being a Jew to the Jews and a Heathen (i.e. Torahless, those who are not under the Law) to the Heathen to win the greatest number of converts made it easier for non-Jews-Gentiles-Heathen to pursue a more excellent way to enter Paradise than taught in HaTorah. Shaul is to the Christians what Moshe is to the Jews. Please, bear in mind that I am hardly using any apocryphal book in my research. They are garbage; although, archeologically speaking, one learns a lot from digging even into the garbage heaps at historical sites. I am only quoting the writings of the most important early church fathers.

The greatest virtue among some of the Heathen women of that time was virginity. The earliest church fathers wrote extensively in praise and admiration of those Heathen virgins who dedicated themselves to idols. Some of the early church fathers dedicated a lot of time and effort writing about both, Heathen and Christian virginity.

SAINT JEROME'S LETTERS
LETTER 123: TO AGERUCHIA

8. I need say nothing of the vestal virgins and those of Apollo, the Achivan Juno, Diana, and Minerva, all of whom waste away in the perpetual virginity required by their vocation.

SAINT JEROME "AGAINST JOVINIANUS"
BOOK I

41. I have given enough and more than enough illustrations from the divine writings of Christian chastity and angelic virginity. But as I understand that our opponent (i.e. Jovinianus) in his commentaries summons us to the tribunal of worldly wisdom, and we are told that views of this kind are never accepted in the world, and that our religion has invented a dogma against nature, I will quickly run through Greek and Roman and Foreign History, and will show that virginity ever took the lead of chastity. Fable relates that Atalanta, the virgin of Calydonian fame, lived for the chase and dwelt always in the woods; in other words that she did not set her heart on marriage with its troubles of pregnancy and of sickness, but upon the nobler life of freedom and chastity. Harpalyce too, a Thracian virgin, is described by the famous poet; and so is Camilia, queen of the Volsci, on whom, when she came to his assistance, Turnus had no higher praise which he could bestow than to call her a virgin. "O Virgin, Glory of Italy!" And that famous daughter of Leos, the lady of the brazen house, ever a virgin, is related to have freed her country from pestilence by her voluntary death: and the blood of the virgin Iphigenia is said to have calmed the stormy winds. What need to tell of the Sibyls of Erythrae and Cum, and the eight others? for Varro asserts there were ten whose ornament was virginity, and divination the reward of their virginity. But if in the Aeolian dialect "Sibyl" is represented by Theobou'lh, we must understand that a knowledge of the Counsel of God is rightly attributed to virginity alone. We read, too, that Cassandra and Chryseis, prophetesses of Apollo and Juno, were virgins. And there were innumerable priestesses of the Taurian Diana, and of Vesta. One of these, Munitia, being suspected of unchastity was buried alive, which would be in my opinion an unjust punishment, unless the violation of virginity were considered a serious crime. At all events how highly the Romans always esteemed virgins is clear from the fact that consuls and generals even in their triumphal chariots and bringing home the spoils of conquered nations, were wont to make way for them to pass. And so did men of all ranks.

The point that Saint Jerome and the rest of the early church fathers are trying to make throughout their writings is this: If Heathen virgins are perpetually devoting their virginity to Heathen idols, Christian virginity should be far superior to them in every respect. Shaul took the lead teaching them the "conveniences" of virginity versus marriage. However, to his Jewish fellow worker, Shaul is correctly teaching along the lines of HaTorah where it says that a woman's salvation is in child bearing, but he seems to have a different message for the Heathen converts. He is taking into consideration their cultural and religious background in order to win them.

1 Timothy 2:14-15 * And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing -- if they continue in faith, love and holiness with modesty.

Generally, the Heathen were sexually immoral, but not as immoral as the Christian converts at Corinth.

1 Corinthians 5:1-2 * It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among the Heathen: A man has his father's wife. And you are proud!

A few lines into his letter Shaul is prescribing virginity for women and unmarried status for men as a better way of pleasing Yahweh than obeying Yahweh's own command about child bearing in the sanctity of marriage as taught in the first chapters of Genesis. Shaul's message is easy to understand, he is talking to the Heathen in their own language and culture! He is becoming like one of them to help them remedy the outrageous immorality that was reported to him to be taking place at the Corinth church. He deals with this problem of immorality by issuing his own recommendations.

1 Corinthians 7:1-2 * Now for the matters you wrote about: it is good for a man not to marry. But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband.

Shaul is prescribing men that it is good not to be married under normal circumstances, "but since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife." Now I can appreciate Kefa's remark that Shaul is used to saying things "hard to understand" and very easy to twist. It is a fact that whatever Kefa read of Shaul was from his own Jewish perspective and that is why he was having a hard time understanding Shaul who knew how to be a Greek to the Greeks, and so on. It is not my intention to undermine Shaul's teachings at all, I'm merely pointing out some "difficulties." I know that some of us are devotees of Shaul and I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings. We can always find ways to make Shaul mean something else of what he actually said. I used to do that quite often over the years that I spent in the Christian ministry. Now, I honestly want to believe that somebody else must have tampered with his letters. That is the best I can do for Shaul at the moment.

1 Corinthians 7:37-38 * But the man who has settled the matter in his own mind, who is under no compulsion but has control over his own will, and who has made up his mind not to marry the virgin--this man also does the right thing. So then, he who marries the virgin does right, but he who does not marry her does even better.

No sooner than Shaul made all these recommendations, the early church fathers applied them. Saint Ignatius was the 3rd bishop at Antioch, the birthplace of Christianity. In the year 110 of our Common Era he was already reporting with pride the existence of virgins in his congregation. It is possible that Saint Ignatius knew Shaul personally. The fact is that in a few years after Shaul launched his doctrine on virginity it was implemented throughout Christianity. The early church fathers created a full set of rules about it based on Shaul's teaching. What we need to do is to review every aspect of virginity taught throughout the Scriptures and see how it would apply to us. The 144,000 sealed ones are supposed to be all virgins, and we are heading into that direction. If we believe that such a group will exist we do well investigating the options.

THE EPISTLE OF SAINT IGNATIUS TO THE ANTIOCHIANS
CHAPTER 12
I salute the virgins betrothed to Christ, of whom may I have joy in the Lord Jesus.

THE EPISTLE OF SAINT IGNATIUS TO HERO, A DEACON OF ANTIOCH
CHAPTER 5

Watch over the virgins, as the precious treasures of Christ.

Clement of Alexandria was born in 153, he also wrote about virginity. He thinks that Shaul actually improved on Yahweh's own will.

CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA "THE STROMATA"
BOOK IV
CHAPTER 23

Right mystically and sacredly the apostle (i.e. Shaul), teaching us the choice which is truly gracious, not in the way of rejection of other things as bad (i.e. procreation), but so as to do things better than what is good, has spoken, saying, "So he that giveth his virgin in marriage doeth well; and he that giveth her not doeth better..."

By the turn of the year 200 Cyprian of Carthage was preaching on the same subject of virginity in a very moderate tone. He goes on to explain the doctrine of Shaul about virginity. In essence it has to do with the Earth's overpopulation. 2,000 Years ago the Christians already declared the Earth overpopulated. Abortion is not mentioned at all in the NT. The only time that abortion is mentioned in the NT it is in a good light as part of Shaul's personal testimony (1 Corinthians 15:8.) At that time the Heathen practiced abortion without any restraint. Any mention of pro-life to them would have alienated the same people that Shaul wanted to win. There seemed to have been an opportunistic need to add Christian virginity to Heathen abortion in an ecumenical endeavor to further control "overpopulation." Shaul started to teach that even those who were married should act as if they had no wife. It is obvious that Shaul's "hard to understand" statements are used verbatim by the early church fathers to impose a state of virginity in Christianity.

CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE "ON THE DRESS OF VIRGINS"
23. The first decree (i.e. Yahweh's) commanded to increase and to multiply; the second (i.e. Shaul's) enjoined continency. While the world is still rough and void, we are propagated by the fruitful begetting of numbers, and we increase to the enlargement of the human race. Now, when the world is filled and the earth supplied, they who can receive continency, living after the manner of eunuchs, are made eunuchs unto the kingdom. Nor does the Lord command this, but He exhorts it; nor does He impose the yoke of necessity, since the free choice of the will is left.

SAINT JEROME'S LETTERS
LETTER 22: TO EUSTOCHIUM

22. I will just say now that the apostle (i.e. Shaul) bids us pray without ceasing, and that he who in the married state renders his wife her due cannot so pray. Either we pray always and are virgins, or we cease to pray that we may fulfill the claims of marriage. Still he says: "If a virgin marry she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh." At the outset I promised that I should say little or nothing of the embarrassments of wedlock, and now I give you notice to the same effect. If you want to know from how many vexations a virgin is free and by how many vexations a wife has lettered you should read Tertullian "to a philosophic friend," and his other treatises on virginity... And now that I am about to institute a comparison between virginity and marriage, I beseech my readers not to suppose that in praising virginity I have in the least disparaged marriage, and separated the saints of the Old Testament from those of the New, that is to say, those who had wives and those who altogether refrained from the embraces of women: I rather think that in accordance with the difference in time and circumstance one rule applied to the former, another to us upon whom the ends of the world have come. So long as that law remained, "Be fruitful, and multiply and replenish the earth"; and "Cursed is the barren woman that beareth not seed in Israel," they all married and were given in marriage, left father and mother, and became one flesh. But once in tones of thunder the words (i.e. Shaul's) were heard, "The time is shortened, that henceforth those that have wives may be as though they had none": cleaving to the Lord, we are made one spirit with Him. And why? Because "He that is unmarried is careful for the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord: but he that is married is careful for the things of the world, how he may please his wife. And there is a difference also between the wife and the virgin. She that is unmarried is careful for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married is careful for the things of the world, how she may please her husband." (Shaul - I Cor. 7:32-34) Why do you cavil? Why do you resist? The vessel of election (i.e. Shaul) says this; he tells us that there is a difference between the wife and the virgin. Observe what the happiness of that state must be in which even the distinction of sex is lost. The virgin is no longer called a woman. "She that is unmarried is careful for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit." A virgin is defined as she that is holy in body and in spirit, for it is no good to have virgin flesh if a woman is married in mind...
The married woman has the paint laid on before her mirror, and, to the insult of her Maker, strives to acquire something more than her natural beauty. Then come the prattling of infants, the noisy household, children watching for her word and waiting for her kiss, the reckoning up of expenses, the preparation to meet the outlay. On one side you will see a company of cooks, girded for the onslaught and attacking the meat: there you may hear the hum of a multitude of weavers. Meanwhile a message is delivered that the husband and his friends have arrived. The wife, like a swallow, flies all over the house. "She has to see to everything. Is the sofa smooth? Is the pavement swept? Are the flowers in the cups? Is dinner ready?" Tell me, pray, where amid all this is there room for the thought of God? Are these happy homes? Where there is the beating of drums, the noise and clatter of pipe and lute, the clanging of cymbals, can any fear of God be found?...

Yes, Shaul was trying to be nice to the Heathen converts suggesting that a woman, or a virgin for that matter makes a poor choice by getting married. Not only men were advised to act as if they had no wives, even the widows were advised not to remarry. It was sexual intercourse prevention across the board. This is not quite what HaTorah teaches about the widows, I don't think so. (Which brings another question, can HaTorah be applied to the Heathen in matters of widows?) Anyway, Shaul is giving his "I say" on this subject.

1 Corinthians 7:8, 27-28 * Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. * Are you married? Do not seek a divorce. Are you unmarried? Do not look for a wife. But if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. But those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this.

The "difficulty" here is that Shaul doesn't qualify his statements because Yahweh said that "By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground..." Shaul seems to advise a less troublesome way of life. Or, are there other reasons? Maybe so... As I see it, there is a well defined drift in all this subject of virginity and it is not only an overpopulation problem. According to Saint Jerome and all the early church fathers, "The virgin of Israel is fallen." There is no virgin now, they say. That is why Shaul is working hard on his project of presenting the Christian Church "as a pure virgin to Christ." He laid the foundation for it and the early church fathers were very careful how they built on top of it. It is in the number of virgins at each congregation that the whole Christian church can show traces of virginity. I am beginning to wonder if this wantonness about becoming a virgin didn't make Christianity the great whore spoken of in the Book of Revelation.

2 Corinthians 11:1-2 * I hope you will put up with a little of my foolishness; but you are already doing that ( ). I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.
1 Corinthians 3:10 * By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds.

SAINT JEROME'S LETTERS
LETTER 22: TO EUSTOCHIUM

"The virgin of Israel is fallen and there is none to raise her up." I will say it boldly, though God can do all things He cannot raise up a virgin when once she has fallen. He may indeed relieve one who is defiled from the penalty of her sin, but He will not give her a crown. Let us fear lest in us also the prophecy be fulfilled, "Good virgins shall faint." Notice that it is good virgins who are spoken of, for there are bad ones as well. "Whosoever looketh on a woman," the Lord says, "to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." So that virginity may be lost even by a thought. Such are evil virgins, virgins in the flesh, not in the spirit; foolish virgins, who, having no oil, are shut out by the Bridegroom.

The serious concern of the earliest church fathers is focused on how to keep the virgins from falling because one slightly lewd thought in a moment of weakness will disqualify any of them from being a virgin. Still, virginity was "in" among the early Christians. It wasn't too long after the Christian church got started at Antioch, Syria, that monasteries were instituted there to help in the preservation of the virginity of any woman or girl who was personally interested or forced into it by well wishing parents. The object was to hide the virgins from public eyes to keep them pure in body and spirit married to "Christ" alone. The end result was that anyone could tell a Christian virgin in those days by the slimy stench coming off her body in the fragrance of her own natural juices. According to the early church fathers she must have been quite a sight to behold... from a distance.

SAINT JEROME'S LETTERS
LETTER 128: TO GAUDENTIUS

2. Some mothers when they have vowed a daughter to virginity clothe her in somber garments, wrap her up in a dark cloak, and let her have neither linen nor gold ornaments. They wisely refuse to accustom her to what she will afterwards have to lay aside.

LETTER 107: TO LAETA
11. When you go a short way into the country, do not leave your daughter behind you. Leave her no power or capacity of living without you, and let her feel frightened when she is left to herself. Let her not converse with people of the world or associate with virgins indifferent to their vows. Let her not be present at the weddings of your slaves and let her take no part in the noisy games of the household. As regards the use of the bath, I know that some are content with saying that a Christian virgin should not bathe along with eunuchs or with married women, with the former because they are still men. at all events in mind, and with the latter because women with child offer a revolting spectacle. For myself, however, I wholly disapprove of baths for a virgin of full age. Such an one should blush and feel overcome at the idea of seeing herself undressed. By vigils and fasts she mortifies her body and brings it into subjection. By a cold chastity she seeks to put out the flame of lust and to quench the hot desires of youth. And by a deliberate squalor she makes haste to spoil her natural good looks. Why, then, should she add fuel to a sleeping fire by taking baths?

LETTER 147: TO SABINIANUS
5. It is usual in the monasteries of Egypt and Syria (Antioch?) for virgins and widows who have vowed themselves to God and have renounced the world and have trodden under foot its pleasures, to ask the mothers of their communities to cut their hair; not that afterwards they go about with heads uncovered in defiance of the apostle's command, for they wear a close-fitting cap and a veil. No one knows of this in any single case except the shearers and the shorn, but as the practice is universal, it is almost universally known. The custom has in fact become a second nature. It is designed to save those who take no baths and whose heads and faces are strangers to all unguents, from accumulated dirt and from the tiny creatures which are sometimes generated about the roots of the hair.

Since then virginity became deeply rooted in Christianity in a way unheard of among the Heathen. Believe it or not, in a lesser or a greater degree, this kind of virginity is still practiced today. Regardless of how it is practiced, Saint Jerome is careful to explain why Christianity accepts and prefers virginity better than marriage as the ultimate quest for a better position in Paradise. He is deriving strong support from Shaul's "I say."

SAINT JEROME "AGAINST JOVINIANUS"
BOOK I

2. ... We have read God's first command, "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth"; but while we honor marriage we prefer virginity which is the offspring of marriage. Will silver cease to be silver, if gold is more precious than silver?...
16. And at the same time we must bear in mind the meaning of the phrase, "replenish the earth." Marriage replenishes the earth, virginity fills Paradise.
18. ... For me, virginity is consecrated in the persons of Mary and of Christ."
19. Some one may say, "Do you dare detract from wedlock, which is a state blessed by God?" I do not detract from wedlock when I set virginity before it. No one compares a bad thing with a good. Wedded women may congratulate themselves that they come next to virgins...
20. I praise wedlock, I praise marriage, but it is because they give me virgins...
24. But we to whom it is said (i.e. by Shaul), "The time is shortened, that henceforth those that have wives may be as though they had none," have a different command, and for us virginity is consecrated by the Virgin Saviour.
37. And by way of more fully explaining what he did not wish them to be he (i.e. Shaul) says elsewhere: "I espoused you to one husband, that I might present you as a pure virgin to Christ." But if you choose to apply the words to the whole Assembly of believers, and in this betrothal to Christ include both married women, and the twice-married, and widows, and virgins, that also makes for us. For whilst he (i.e. Shaul) invites all to chastity and to the reward of virginity, he shows that virginity is more excellent than all these conditions. And again writing to the Galatians he says: "Because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." Among the works of the law is marriage, and accordingly under it they are cursed who have no children. And if under the Gospel it is permitted to have children, it is one thing to make a concession to weakness another to hold out rewards to virtue.

Any woman who decided to take the vow of virginity was actually marrying to "Christ." The same vows are still taken today in the Christian Mother church. After taking the vows, a virgin is in no position to think about another man, if she did she would be cheating on her husband "Christ." (By the way, the name "Jesus" was very seldom used in the early church father's writings. They seem to favor the name "Christ" because it is one hundred per cent Greek.) It was and still is a serious "ecclesiastical" crime to marry a virgin vowed to "Christ."

SAINT JEROME "LIVES OF ILLUSTRIOUS MEN"
CHAPTER 123

Tiberianus, the Baetican, in answer to an insinuation that he shared the heresy of Priscillian, wrote an apology in pompous and mongrel language. But after the death of his friends, overcome by the tediousness of exile, he changed his mind, as it is written in Holy Scripture "the dog returned to his vomit," and married a nun, a virgin dedicated to Christ.

THE FIRST EPISTLE OF THE BLESSED CLEMENT
Attributed to Clement of Rome
CHAPTER 7

No virgin, therefore, unless they be in everything as Christ, and as those "who are Christ's," can be saved.

SAINT JEROME "AGAINST JOVINIANUS"
BOOK I

13. Let us run through the remaining points, for our author (i.e. Shaul) is so voluminous that we cannot linger over every detail. "But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned." It is one thing not to sin, another to do good. "And if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned." Not that virgin who has once for all dedicated herself to the service of God: for, should one of these marry, she will have damnation, because she has made of no account her first faith.

In due course I will post some excerpts of the early church fathers on MALE VIRGINITY. The early church fathers were all male and it is very obvious that they had a field day imposing rules on the female virgins. Shaul is more balanced, though. Anyone interested in becoming one of the 144,000 male virgins of Israel should be doing some serious research on this subject. I am, I want to know the options.

May Yahweh have mercy on all of us!
Shalom aleichem,
Lou

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Lou

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posted 10-16-1999 11:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lou   Click Here to Email Lou     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
As I was doing some more research on this subject of Christian virginity, I ran into some very interesting correspondence that I thought I should add to my post on this subject.

At the turn of the first century Sha'ul's doctrine on Christian virginity became a common objective within the Christian "Church." The Deacons were to watch over the virgins. By all means, it was a service to the "church" that had to be done. And as usual, the Christians make the rules as they go.


=============================
THE EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS (110 CE) TO HERO A DEACON OF ANTIOCH
CHAPTER 5
Watch over the virgins, as the precious treasures of Christ.


THE EPISTLES OF CYPRIAN (c. 250 CE)
EPISTLE 61
1. Cyprian, Caecilius, Victor, Sedatus, Tertullus, with the presbyters who were present with them, to Pomponius their brother, greeting. We have read, dearest brother, your letter which you sent by Paconius our brother, asking and desiring us to write again to you, and say what we thought of those virgins who, after having once determined to continue in their condition, and firmly to maintain their continency, have afterwards been found to have remained in the same bed side by side with men; of whom you say that one is a deacon; and yet that the same virgins who have confessed that they have slept with men declare that they are chaste. Concerning which matters, since you have desired our advice, know that we do not depart from the traditions of the Gospel and of the apostles, but with constancy and firmness take counsel for our brethren and sisters, and maintain the discipline of the Church by all the ways of usefulness and safety, since the Lord speaks, saying, "And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, and they shall feed you with discipline." And again it is written; "Whoso despiseth discipline is miserable; and in the Psalms also the Holy Spirit admonishes and instructs us, saying, "Keep discipline, lest haply the Lord be angry, and ye perish from the right way, when His anger shall quickly burn against you."
...
4. And therefore you have acted advisedly and with vigour, dearest brother, in excommunicating the deacon who has often abode with a virgin; and, moreover, the others who had been used to sleep with virgins. But if they have repented of this their unlawful lying together, and have mutually withdrawn from one another, let the virgins meantime be carefully inspected by midwives; and if they should be found virgins, let them be received to communion, and admitted to the Church; yet with this threatening, that if subsequently they should return to the same men, or if they should dwell together with the same men in one house or under the same roof, they should be ejected with a severer censure, nor should such be afterwards easily received into the Church. But if any one of them be found to be corrupted, let her abundantly repent, because she who has been guilty of this crime is an adulteress, not (indeed) against a husband, but against Christ; and therefore, a due time being appointed, let her afterwards, when confession has been made, return to the Church. But if they obstinately persevere, and do not mutually separate themselves, let them know that, with this their immodest obstinacy, they can never be admitted by us into the Church, lest they should begin to set an example to others to go to ruin by their crimes. Nor let them think that the way of life or of salvation is still open to them, if they have refused to obey the bishops and priests, since in Deuteronomy the Lord God says, "And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest or judge, whosoever be shall be in those days, that man shall die, and all the people shall hear and fear, and do no more presumptuously." God commanded those who did not obey His priests to be slain, and those who did not hearken to His judges who were appointed for the time. And then indeed they were slain with the sword, when the circumcision of the flesh was yet in force; but now that circumcision has begun to be of the spirit among God's faithful servants, the proud and contumacious are slain with the sword of the Spirit, in that they are cast out of the Church. For they cannot live out of it, since the house of God is one, and there can be no salvation to any except in the Church. But the divine Scripture testifies that the undisciplined perish, because they do not listen to, nor obey wholesome precepts; for it says, "An undisciplined man loveth not him that correcteth him. But they who hate reproof shall be consumed with disgrace."
And so on...

BTW, whatever happened to the bunch of Christians that used to post messages in this forum?

Shabbat shalom,
Lou

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Jayjay

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posted 10-16-1999 01:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jayjay   Click Here to Email Jayjay     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
(Lou, I'm new, just trying to get a handle on this web-site and see if there is knowledge to gain, and things to learn herein- I'm Christian by choice and in heart even though my secretive heritage was Jewish)
As a Christian, allow me to give a different viewpoint than you both have stated. The first commandment was to be fruitful and multiply, so obviously there is no crime in sex. The question obviously being with whom and when etc. etc. The crime wasn't nudity, or getting it on, but eating of the fruit of the tree of good and evil especially since they already knew good. What's the point in knowing evil. So who are we to marry, Easy one, we are to love the Lord our God with all our heart ...., as it says in Isaiah, He is our husband, we are His bride even if we are male. we are to receive Him and be humble towards him. True folowers put the Lord first before their personal private marriages. They don't equate marriage to their wifes or husbands as marriage to Yahweh like most churches do. Few couples are put together by Yahweh, for His Service and supernaturally performed or brought together by Him according to His Will. Marriage is a nice place for us to learn the principles involved in love and responsibility, but hardly a sacred place never to be violated , etc.etc. as the churches overly pretend. Our marriage to the Lord is paramount if we are His sheep, that's why the Lord wrote his controversial verses about hating your father, and mother children. Mathew and elsewhere. Your regular churches of course avoid this as it doesn't fit in with their overall doctrine as well as making the Love of country (nationalism) insanely the same as the Love of God the same as the Love of your Mate.
The love of Jesus comes first.

VIRGINITY

With this in mind, the virginity verses are easy when you understand that Jesus's bride is a "SPIRITUAL" virgin, it obviously isn't referring to whether we obeyed his commandment and reproduced previously, that's just downright silly to say it mildly. His End Time bride isn't restricted to the holyier thasn thou, I haven't touched another human being types, as self-righteousness never gets anyone anywhere with "The LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS". So old, young, mama's and papas's, children that haven't had sex are eligible for entry and even shock of shock even children who have had sex (hopefully with only those of their own age group)may be part of his Bride, his virgin bride because they love only him in heart and soul. They don't love the sysytem the world, thwe materialistic whore, they are virgins because they haven't fornicated with the Whore, the spirit of the whore, the true adultery, the true real sin that prevents any of us from being part of his bride whether Jew or Gentile, the principle is exactly the same.....(Genesis to Revelations)

Jay (Jordan)

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ShaniYah

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posted 10-16-1999 02:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ShaniYah   Click Here to Email ShaniYah     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Hi Lou

Your post on 'virginity' is very interesting. I will be looking forward to further posts on the subject.

You have really clarified one of the fanatical tendencies that are or have been apparent thoughout Christian history. It goes right along with their making Mary a perpetual virgin.

ShaniYah

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Lou

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posted 10-17-1999 01:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lou   Click Here to Email Lou     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Shalom JayJay,

You are telling me the way you feel Christianity ought to be. If you are a Christian, you are probably a follower of Sha'ul. If so, he "favored" a MORE EXCELLENT WAY of pleasing our Creator through physical virginity and chastity for everyone across the board, men and women. The next question is, how serious you want to take Sha'ul's personal advise on virginity and chastity. Are you willing to act as if you had no wife? Have a print out made of this thread and have it discussed in your Christian assembly. You probably still sing "Faith of our fathers..."
Well, find out what was their faith all about. Christianity is all wrapped up in a lot of fairy tales.

May Father Yahweh help us find the truth about everything!
Lou

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Jordanfisherman

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posted 10-27-1999 01:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jordanfisherman   Click Here to Email Jordanfisherman     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Faith of our Fathers

Shalom

Allow me to differ with you, Lou.
But if you choose to follow Yahweh using abstinence from sex so be it, that's not my ideal nor the scriptural ideal IMO, but we both stand according to Yahweh according to our heart and motivation anyway.

As mentioned I don't think sex is necessisarily a sin, because of course that is how I got here, and how me and my wife produced five kids. Thank God for the 1st commandment of Yahweh to adam and Eve, be fruitful and multiply.

So of course you can now see why I believe more in the "Faith of the Fathers" rather than a church membership. Most churches, or could I be so bold as to say almost all believe that sex, drinking, and not going to church on Sunday etc. etc. are cardinal sins. But you see, Lou, I'm not into self-righteous appearances, I can't even fake being righteous, the Lord is my total righteousness, at least I wish it was. Therefore I don't go to church or have a specific grouping or assemblage etc. etc.

But for further clarification you might think about the truth that yahweh created matter and our flesh and therefore flesh is not basically evil. See Just Bill's and Uriah 7's comments about the heresy of the dualistic thought that flesh is evil, bad, or sinful whichever negative word you may think applies.

Nevertheless Lou , if your heart is right and abstinence is your way of honouring Yahweh, that's your choice. I'm not really a Nazarine either - although the Lord blessed them for their dedication and keeping their vow.... I cut my hair, and have my beer, so good on them, that's their choice, and the same goes for you if you choose virginity as a way of honouriong Yahweh. I don't and hope and pray my children don't either as I want some grandkids. Thank God for kids and reproduction, besides the Virgin bride in Revelations has nothing to do with whether believing Christians have had sex or haven't had sex. otherwise my wife, wouldn't make it, my grandmother,etc. etc. that doctrine would totally destroy my family tree and everyone elses.

You can choose to be celibrate now if you like but aren't even you thankful that your parents weren't. Besides if you think that celibracy after producing kids makes you pure, wouldn't your past
rather enjoyable experiences make you a little less than holy. Whatever you choose is up to you, but I really don't know how we can force our own opinions on others, or condemn them for (in the right place in the right time with the right person) obeying Yahweh's commandment.

IMO

Shalom

Jordan Fisherman

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ShaniYah

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posted 10-27-1999 04:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ShaniYah   Click Here to Email ShaniYah     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
JordanFisherman wrote
quote:
Thank God for the 1st commandment of Yahweh to adam and Eve, be fruitful and multiply.

If you read the Scriptures referring to Adam and Eve you will not find a commandment telling them to be fruitful and multipy.

Eve is not told that she will conceive until
Genesis 3:16

    To the woman He said, Greatly I will increase your worry and you will conceive. In painful toil you shall bear sons;

------------------
ShaniYah

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Lou

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posted 10-27-1999 10:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lou   Click Here to Email Lou     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Jordan Fisherman,

You should read my post over again. I believe that you misunderstood me. I am reporting on the faith of the Christian church fathers up to the 3rd century. I am not teaching or preaching on chastity. My concern is whether virginity and total chastity is like Sha'ul said, the "more excellent way" of honoring Father Yahweh. The early church fathers got the picture of Sha'ul's message right away. What about us?

ShaniYah,

Bereshith/Genesis 1:28 is where the commandment is given to Adam and Eve to be fruitful and to multiply.

Shalom,
Lou

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ShaniYah

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posted 10-28-1999 01:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ShaniYah   Click Here to Email ShaniYah     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
But Lou the creation account in chapter one and chapter two are two different accounts. They are not one and the same. We have two different events taking place.

Chapter 1
24-26 The animals of the earth and creeping things and birds and fish are created
27 and then mankind (both male and female) are created.
Chapter 2
7 The man only is formed
18-19 and then the animals of the field are formed and birds.

Note: Chapter one the animals of the earth and creeping things along with birds and fish are created. In chapter two the animals of the field are formed and the birds. No fish or creeping things. Chapter one both male and female are created in two only the man is formed.

Chapter 1
28 Mankind (male and female) is told to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth,
Chapter 2
8 The man (no female) is placed in a garden in Eden to till it and guard it.

Note: In chapter one we have both male and female which are to fill the earth. In two we have only the man and he is placed in the garden of Eden to till it and guard it. Who and what is he to guard it from?

Chapter 1
28 Mankind is told to rule over the fish, birds and over all living things creeping on the earth.
Chapter 2
18 It says because the man was alone the living things of the field and the birds were formed to be a mate or counterpart for him.

Note: Chapter one mankind is told to rule over the animals etc. In two the animals and birds are formed to be a mate or counter part to the man. That is a big difference.

Chapter 1
29 Mankind is given all grass bearing seed which is on the surface of the earth and every tree in which is the fruit of a tree bearing seed for food.
Chapter 2
16-17 YHUH commands the man that he may freely eat of every tree in the garden except the tree of the knowledge of good and bad.

Note: In chapter one mankind is free to move over the surface of the earth and eat all seed bearing grass and from every seed bearing tree which produces fruit, but in chapter two the man is confined to the garden in Eden which he is to guard, and may only eat freely of all the trees in the garden with the exception of the tree of the knowledge of good and bad.

Chapter 1
24 All animal life of the earth is created
27 Humankind (both male and female) is created in the image of Elohim.
Chapter 2
7 The man (male only) is formed from the dirt of the ground.
19 The animals of the field and birds are formed and brought to the man
21-22 A part of the man is removed and built into a woman.

Chapter 1
28 Mankind (both male and female) is blessed and told to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth
Chapter 2
16 not until after their act of disobedience does YHUH tell the woman she will conceive and in painful toil bear sons;

Note: In chapter one the male and female are blessed and are to be fruitful and multiply and it is all a very positive thing, but in chapter two the man and the woman were never told anything about being fruitful. The woman is not told that she will bear sons until after they disobeyed.

------------------
ShaniYah

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Jayjay

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posted 10-28-1999 04:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jayjay   Click Here to Email Jayjay     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote

Faith of our Fathers

Dear Lou,
Of course I knew you were referring to our Christian fathers (who were pretty anti-woman) rather than our original
earthly father Adam. I just did this to show you that, his first instructions were of course, to be fruitful and multiply, like all of nature was supposed to do naturally, how else would the world get populated or covered with trees etc. etc. You see Genesis is literal and in chronological order. There was a real Adam and Eve. It isn't a myth, and according to scriptures you can count backwards with preciseness to whaat was it March ?, 4004 or thereabouts to the Creation. Therefore as mentioned 'the faith of our fathers' was to reproduce and actually become a father. That's simple enough IMO

Equality of Men and Women

Dear Shaniyah,
Interesting post, are you sure we are reading the same Book. Anyway I don't have mine with me, so I can't quote today, but will attempt to tommorrow...LW (Lord Willing) Nevertheless you have brought up a repetitive point that seems to keep popping up thru-out the Board, which compels me to start a new thread about the equality of men and women and yahweh's principle. Might see you there or here.

Sincerely in Yahweh's Name

Jordan Fisherman

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Lou

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posted 10-28-1999 11:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lou   Click Here to Email Lou     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
ShaniYah,
Your reply is very interesting. I'm going to take a harder look into it. I'll post a comment in due time...

I don't believe enyone is addressing my concern about following the leadership of Sha'ul to serve Father Yahweh in "a more excellent way" by going virgin or in case that it is too late for that going chaste all way, and the married men acting as if they had no wives... and so on.

Shalom aleichem,
Lou

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Jordanfisherman

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posted 10-29-1999 03:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jordanfisherman   Click Here to Email Jordanfisherman     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Lou,
ACT LIKE WE'RE UNMARRIED

Personnally I agree with you Lou, we all are suppose to act like we are unmarried whether we are male or female, and put our relationship and marriage with Yahushua first because the scriptures say we should and that we are married to him (Isaiah )
and the first commandment tells us to love our Creator first above every other relationship. IMO, as you say our marriage to our wife and husband is subservient to our relationship with Yahweh, they are not equal as some churches think.

Shaniyah
BE FRUITFUL AND MULTIPLY

As mentioned Shani, I brought my Bible today, and can therefore confirm that the the Lord asked Adam and Eve to have sex. In Verse 27,28 it states that (KJV) "So God created man in his own image of God, created he him, male and female created he them. And God blessed them and God said unto them BE FRUITFUL AND MULTIPLY and replenish the Earth..."

Similiarly Chapter Two of Genesis isn't a different contradictory version but just simply expands upon the outline of Chapter 1. God's word is never in contradiction with itself even though we might misinterpret it sometimes. Anyway, if you sometimes realized that man can mean men and women just as mankind refers to all humans male and female, it will show that Chapter 2 of Genesis is in total agreement with Chapter 1. From the birds and the bees & the trees onto just the birds and the bees og our founding father and mother. Thank God, they reproduced the good all natural way, otherwise we wouldn't be here IMO.

Do you see what I mean ShaniYah?

In His Service

Jordan Fisherman

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ShaniYah

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posted 10-29-1999 11:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ShaniYah   Click Here to Email ShaniYah     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Hi Jordanfisherman
All that I see is that you believe that chapter one and two are speaking of the same events and I see them as two distinct and separate events.

Chapter one is speaking of the complete creation, which includes humans in general. Chapter two is speaking of one man and one woman in a completely different senario.

You seem to be in denial in regards to the fact that there are some drastic differences between Chapter one and two. I know that we are taught that chapter two is just another version or an expansion of one, but that is not what I see.

The Scriptures are very clear.

Chapter 1
24-26 The animals of the earth and creeping things and birds and fish are created
27 and then mankind (both male and female) is created.
Chapter 2
7 The man only is formed
18-19 and then the animals of the field are formed and birds.

Note: Chapter one- the animals of the earth and creeping things along with birds and fish are created before humans. In chapter two- only the man is formed and then the animals of the field are formed and the birds. No fish, no creeping things are made in chapter two.

Chapter 1
28 Mankind (male and female) is told to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth,
Chapter 2
8 The man only is placed in a garden in Eden to till it and guard it.

Note: In chapter one we have both male and female which are to fill the earth. In two we have only the man and he is placed in the garden of Eden to till it and guard it. Pretty hard to fill the earth when you are confined to a specific area.

Chapter 1
28 Mankind is told to rule over the fish, birds and over all living things creeping on the earth.
Chapter 2
18 It says because the man was alone the living things of the field and the birds were formed to be a mate or counterpart for him.

Note: Chapter one- mankind is told to rule over the animals etc. In two- the animals and birds are formed to be a mate or counter part to the man. There is a vast difference between something that is to be 'ruled over vs something that is a mate or counterpart'. And when the animals and birds did not fulfill that purpose, and only then, the woman was built from a part of the man and became his counterpart/mate.

What do you think would have happened if these specific animals of the field and birds had been able to fulfill this role which pertained to the garden scene only?

In chapter 1 mankind is free to move over the surface of the earth and eat all seed bearing grass and from every seed bearing tree which produces fruit, but in chapter 2 the man is confined to the garden in Eden which he is to guard, and may only eat freely of all the trees in the garden with the exception of the tree of the knowledge of good and bad.

Do all these events really look the same to you?

I do not consider them confusing because I do not consider chapter two just an expansion of chapter one, but a as completely differnt event with a completely different purpose.

------------------
ShaniYah

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Jayjay

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posted 10-30-1999 05:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jayjay   Click Here to Email Jayjay     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Shalom Shaniyah and others

Your confusion comes from the verse Genesis 2:19, 20 rather than 18, 19 .

Even though it is obvious and cvonsistent that the order of creation would be the same because Yahweh does things orderly and certainly wouldn't confuse us with two contradictory orders especially in something so important as His Creation of the World and us, nevertheless let's check out verse 19,& 20.

And out of the ground the Lord God, formed every beast of the field and every fowl of the air and.......brought them to Adam.

This means that yes, they were formed from the ground as already mentioned and in the order already mentioned, the beasts and foul
were already there before Adam was created. Saying that the birds and beasts came after Yahweh's creation of man is a doctrine I've never ever heard before and which surely no other's than yourself believe. Man was the crowning creation of the Creator, because we are made in the image of God. Animals and birds aren't made in the image of God. They weren't created after us, and there aren't two orders of creations in the first two chapters of the Bible.

So do you see how misreading one verse can throw your interpretation off.

But let's finnish the story because Yahweh wasn't finnished creating when He created WOMAN, possibly the most beautiful of the two sexes on the exact Same Day as Adam. Adam wasn't even alone a whole day without an equal mate and companion , and helpmeet. They were of one flesh and one spirit. They were totally equal. Why not just yield to the truth that women are equal to men spiritually. It's scriptural, truthful and makes life a lot easier when we treast them as equals (because they are in Yahweh's eyes). Surely we can't class them in with the animals , so that we are suppose to dominate over them and rule them. You aren't suggesting that are you, ShaniYah? Don't you think women are equal to men?

Shelah and Shalom in His Co-Equal Creative Name

Jordan

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ShaniYah

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posted 10-30-1999 06:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ShaniYah   Click Here to Email ShaniYah     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Hi Jayjay

You have completely lost me or I have completely lost you.

You said (my) confusion comes from the verse Genesis 2:19, 20 rather than 18, 19.

I am not confused. The Scriptures are very plain.

Genesis 2
18- And YHUH said, It is not good, the man being alone. I will make a helpmate suited to him.
19- And YHUH Elohim formed from the ground every living thing of the field and every bird of the heavens, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called each living soul that was its name.
20- And the man called names to all the animals, and to the birds of the heavens and to every living thing of the field. But there was not found for the man a helpmate suitable for him.
21- And YHUH Elohim caused a deep sleep to fall on the man, and he slept. And He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh beneath.
22- And YHUH Elohim built the rib which He had taken from the man into a woman and brought her to the man.

verse 18- the man is alone

verse 19- YHUH formed from the ground every living thing of the field and every bird and brought them to the man

verse 20- but no helpmate that was suitable for the man was found

verse 21- YHUH caused a deep sleep to come upon the man and took one of his ribs

verse 22- from the mans rib YHUH built a woman and brought her to the man

If you prefer to deny the order as stated above so be it. But there is absolutely nothing to indicated that these animals were already there. It states very plainly that he was forming them at that time not prior.

You continued by saying
But let's finnish the story because Yahweh wasn't finnished creating when He created WOMAN, possibly the most beautiful of the two sexes on the exact Same Day as Adam. Adam wasn't even alone a whole day without an equal mate and companion , and helpmeet.

One day with YHUH is as a 1000 years.

They were of one flesh and one spirit. They were totally equal. Why not just yield to the truth that women are equal to men spiritually. It's scriptural, truthful and makes life a lot easier when we treast them as equals (because they are in Yahweh's eyes). Surely we can't class them in with the animals , so that we are suppose to dominate over them and rule them. You aren't suggesting that are you, ShaniYah? Don't you think women are equal to men?

Will you please reread the Scriptures that you are referring to.

Genesis 1
27- And Elohim created the man in His image; in the very image of Elohim He created them, male and female.
28- And Elohim blessed them; and Elohim said to them, Be fruitul and multiply, fill the earth and subdue it, and rule over the fish of the sea, and over birds of the heavens, and over all living things creeping on the earth.

There is nothing confusing here. It says mankind, both male and female shall rule over all living things of the earth.

Genesis 2
18- And YHUH said, It is not good, the man being alone. I will make a helpmate suited to him.
19- And YHUH Elohim formed (note formed right now, not had formed) from the ground every living thing of the field and every bird of the heavens, and brought them to the man...
20- ...But there was not found for the man a helpmate suitable for him.
21- And YHUH Elohim caused a deep sleep to fall on the man...He took one of his ribs...
22- And YHUH Elohim built the rib, which He had taken from the man, into a woman and brought her to the man.
23- And the man said, This now at last is bone from my bones and flesh from my flesh...

It is very plain, no confusion.
The animals were formed to be a helpmate for the man, but they were found unsuitable, so a part of the man was taken and built into a woman who was the suitable helpmate for him, or if you want to term it as such, she was his equal because she was a part of him. A suitable helpmate means- equal to.

------------------
ShaniYah

[This message has been edited by ShaniYah (edited 10-30-1999).]

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