posted 11-28-1998 11:35 PM            

A few days ago I had a post which included an article on
the (Latin) name " J O V E ", which (acording to the article)
has the same pronunciation as Yahweh.
This article caught my attention since I don't subscribe to
the name "YAHWEH", but rather to the name "YAOHU" for our
heavenly FATHER, for this reason see ---> (Num.6:27).

Later, Mikey came up with a diffrent Latin definition for Jove.
So I E-mailed a copy of his post to the author (John D. Clark)
about this discrepency on the name "Jove".
(his responce to that is now posted on the board)
However he also forwarded a copy of an e-mail he sent to one
Paul Saint on this same subject, and this may be of interest
to some of you on the forum, so I have included here below.
Shalom,
Minnesota, Marlin

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Subj: [Fwd: Jehovah]
Date: 98-11-23 11:03:55 EST
From: pts@new-vista1.com (seer)
Reply-to: pts@new-vista1.com
To: MARNATE@aol.com

Message-ID: <365AB63C.61D4@new-vista1.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:35:56 -0500
From: seer
Reply-To: pts
Organization: The Pioneer Tract Society
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Subject: Jehovah
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Dear Paul:
I am happy that my article on the pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton
(the four-letter Sacred Name of the Bible) interested you. I hope we
both continue to search for answers to both the important questions, and
to interesting ones such as this issue.
First, my article contains the information you mentioned concerning
the Masoretic Text (MT) vowel pointings, and how those vowel pointing relate
to the translation of the name of God as "Jehovah". And after I
presented that information, I said, "That may be how [the word Jehovah]
came about." I do not argue that the name "Jehovah" is God's name.
Apparently, you assume that I am irrevocably and emotionally attached to
the word Jehovah, but I am not. My point was, and stands unchallenged,
that nothing better has been found.
My purpose in the article was twofold. First, to demonstrate the
spiritual shallowness of those who have developed a deep emotional
attachment to the name "Yahweh" as God's one and only true name. I
noticed that your URL is "yahweh.org"; therefore, I must assume that you
belong in that unfortuante number. Nevertheless, Paul, it is a fact
that there is no proof whatever that "Yahweh" is the name of our
Creator. Secondly, I purposed to present to the visitors of the
Isaiah58 web site the correct pronunciation of the English word "Jove",
as it would have been spoken by the ancient Romans (as nearly as we can
know it.) The fact that those ancient Romans would have pronounced
"Jove" as "Yahweh" (or something very near to that) also stands
unchallenged. I think the "coincidence" is too great to ignore, and
when I realized that was the case, I loved my brothers and sisters in
Christ too much to let that similarity go unpublished.
The "Yahweh" thing is not
There are some subtle distinctions in my article on "Yahweh, god of the
Christians" which the impatient reader will miss. Paul. The capacity of
the American educational system in this country to inculcate into this
generation of students an ability to think critically is dimishing
rapidly. I hope you are not one of its many victims. I encourage you
to do what all wise men have always been able to do; to wit, reconsider
objectively what you think, to see if any steps have been taken in the
wrong direction.
Your statement that it is "absolutely clear" that the Masoretes did not
intend those vowel pointings to be used as any guide to pronunciation
cannot possibly be true, simply because we cannot know what those Hebrew
translators intended unless we ask them; and they are all dead. It MAY
be true that they did not intend for those vowel pointings to be used
for pronunciation, but it seems rash for you to say that it is
"absolutely clear" that they did not intend that.
There seemed to be a "leap of faith" in your comment that the Bibilcal
Hebrew's shortened partial forms of the Tetragrammaton "give us at
least two-thirds of the pronunciation of the name". Isn't there a step
missing in your logic here?
I am very interested in reading any of the examples you mentioned of
"early scribes and historians" who transliterated the Tetragrammaton as
"Yahweh".
If I may, I will paraphrase your final comment to say that a bit more
research ought to be conducted before one "hangs his hat" on ANY
pronuciation of the Sacred Name. And before I close, allow this last
lengthy observation, which I made in my article, but was overlooked by
you and by another respondent to it from a place called "Eliyah's Home
Page".
If we cannot know what the original, correct pronunciation of the
Sacred Name was, then it is unwise to exclude any of the possibilities.
(That is critical thinking, Paul.) The Tetragrammaton could be
pronounced a hundred different ways, FOR ALL THAT WE TRULY KNOW.
Therefore, it is illogical to state, as you did in your last sentence,
that Jehovah is an "impossible form". It is not an impossible form at
all, unless one is determined to make a show of erudition and demand
that all names be transliterated in translation instead of the
world-wide, age-long customary practice of translation names from one
culture to another. "Jesus", you will no doubt say, is an "impossible
form". And so would be, by your method, "Joshua", "Jeremiah", and a
thousand other Biblical names which we all know and have used. Does God
really care about all that?
Jesus warned of falling under the spell of religious pride, so that we
become adamant about matters which are in truth unimportant and take in
grandiose doctrines that aren't worth the time of day, while struggling
to believe soft baby food doctrines basic to the faith. Jesus is the
one who condemend those who "strain at a gnat and swallow a camel."
The "Yahweh" doctrine is a camel, Paul. One must open unnaturally wide
to swallow it. The new birth is a gnat, one of the basic and simple
truths of God. Have you received the holy Ghost with the evidence of
speaking in tongues? If not, then you are not born again. How many
people are choked by that wonderful gnat! Use you zeal for something
that is worthy of it. Get involved with the issues of eternal life,
Paul. You are wasting your life on the empty, worhtless, Sacred Name
controversy.
Are you helping God's true servants to promulgate the healing and
liberating truths of our Lord Jesus, or are you one of those
small-minded people who condemn others for not using the correct vowel
and consonant sounds when speaking of God? Do you really think that
God, who allowed Naaman to bow before the god Nisroch, and who allowed
young David to eat the forbidden sacred bread in the tabernacle, feels
the same way that many in the Yahweh movement feel toward those who do
not pronounce the Tetragrammaton as you say they should?
Thank you again for your interest and response to my article. I share
your interest in the matter, but I cannot share in your faith that the
one and only correct pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton has been
revealed.

John David Clark, Sr.

Date: 98-11-23 11:03:35 EST
From: pts@new-vista1.com (seer)
Reply-to: pts@new-vista1.com
To: MARNATE@AOL.COM

Marlin,

Here is my respnse to the email you sent. I mistakenly sent it to
Isaiah58, thinking I was supposed to.

Also, I will forward to you another email of mine from this morning's
mail on this subject to another person, Paul Saint.

Respectfully:

John David Clark, Sr.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gary:
I thought they were web site responses. I will email them though, so
they won't clutter up your site with worthless akugazhvkagklxf.

The Grammar book used by "Mikey" must have been a good one. The
beginning Latin grammar I studied never revealed to the students that
true Latin used "I" for many words which are translated in English as
"J". (When the Latin "I" comes before a vowel, the English treats it as
a "J" sound."

examples:
the poet Juvenal = Latin, Iuvenal.
January = Ianuaris
joke = iocus
judicial - iudicous

The Greeks did this too:

John = IWANNHN ("W" = omega, "H" = long "a")
James = IAKWBOS

So, the English word "Jove" which the Romans handed down to us would,
as I said in my article, have been pronounced Yohweh.

The fact that their language did not have the letter shaped as a J is a
red herring. They did have what is translated into English a "J". It
is, as you say, not important. . . .but then the entire issue is a red
herring thrown into the path way of the children of God, to keep their
minds off what really matters.

posted 11-29-1998 01:32 PM            

For the record, I do not believe that we need to seek out every way of satan in order to know truth. If we want to recognize truth from error...we must study the truth so that we will recognize error when we see it. Studying error will only serve to confuse.

If the Hebraic and historic evidences prove that the proper pronunciation is 'Yahweh', it does not matter if there happened to be some pagan idol who tried to take on the name. Even our Messiah was paganized as a greek sun god. This doesn't mean that we should not believe in who He truly is.

It is historical fact that the idolators and magicians used Yahweh's name as a so called 'magic word'. This is sick and abominable. However, what idolators might do takes nothing away from the word of Yahweh.

Consider also that if whoever is saying this about 'jove' being similar to "Yahweh" is dead wrong...then the author is in danger of having blasphemed that holy and righteous name of the one who put them on this earth.

With love in His service,

EliYah

posted 11-29-1998 05:39 PM            

Aharon and Hannah, an others, affirm that:

There is no "J" or "U" or "W" in the ancient Hebrew used by Mosheh/Moses.

The 6th letter of the Hebrew Alphabet is the "Vav" and is a "V". The letter "W" came in during the Middle Ages (Dark Ages) and doesn't even have it's own name. It is a "double U"!

Myself I have heard the pronunciation of the Hebrew YUD and its sound is as the English EE, or the Spanish I. In Spanish the sound YAH isn’t EE-AH, but as the English JAH, (as in Jack). The Spanish sound Yahweh is different than the Spanish sound IAHWEH. In Spanish the W doesn’t have a definitive sound, it is a foreign letter. Some person sound it as the Spanish GU (Water, sounds almost Guater; never Vater). It is a good letter to deceive.

In my basic course of Hebrew I have never heard the VAV sounds like the W.

Sincerely you confound us as you say that “Hebraic ... evidences prove”, when the W is not Hebraic, and the letter Y is a strange letter of two sounds that really doesn’t represent the YUD sound.

posted 11-29-1998 06:28 PM         

Your enthusiasm to search for the correct pronunciation of YHWH is commendable, and you will find many sources on the net to assist you. What I would like to say is "listen most carefully" to the advice of some of the very experienced brothers and sisters on this Forum, and be guided in your prayers by their advice. You will need wisdom, discernment and also humility to find the truths you are searching for!

posted 11-29-1998 07:23 PM            

Dear Eliyah,
Aharon and Hannah, an others, affirm that:

There is no "J" or "U" or "W" in the ancient Hebrew used by Mosheh/Moses. The 6th letter of the Hebrew Alphabet is the "Vav" and is a "V". The letter "W" came in during the Middle Ages (Dark Ages) and doesn't even have it's own name. It is a "double U"!

The W came from the U. They are the same letter in Hebrew (Waw).
It is true that there is no "J" sound as in "Jesus" or "Jack". It is not true that there is no "U" or "W" sound in ancient Hebrew. For instance, in the Ancient Paleo Hebrew of this Artifact (illustrated in another post also)

In this artifact we have the name "AshYahu". The paleo Waw is the final letter in this name..giving it the 'U' or 'OO' sound. The "W" can give a sound like 'OO' in words like "few" and "how".

As I said, historical testimony indicates that His name consists of all vowels. His name is transliterated entirely as vowels in Greek, Latin and Egyptian. Josephus the historian also states that His name consists of all vowels. (Wars 5:5:7)At one time, the "V" was simply a cursive "U" and carried the same sound. However, in the English language of today the letter "V" is a consonant and not a vowel. I think this connection explains why two V's are called "Double U"

Myself I have heard the pronunciation of the Hebrew YUD and its sound is as the English EE, or the Spanish I. In Spanish the sound YAH isn’t EE-AH, but as the English JAH, (as in Jack). The Spanish sound Yahweh is different than the Spanish sound IAHWEH. In Spanish the W doesn’t have a definitive sound, it is a foreign letter. Some person sound it as the Spanish GU (Water, sounds almost Guater; never Vater). It is a good letter to Deceive.

Spell it however you want to in Spanish to communicate the proper Hebrew sound. I believe the best spelling in English is "Yahweh" to achieve the transliteration of His name.

In my basic course of Hebrew I have never heard the VAV sounds like the W.

That is because in modern Hebrew, the Waw (called Vav) carries a "V" sound, but in ancient Hebrew..as I have tried to share..does not.

Sincerely you confound us as you say that “Hebraic ... evidences prove”, when the W is not Hebraic, and the letter Y is a strange letter of two sounds that really doesn’t represent the YUD sound.

On the W, see above. Concerning the Y giving an "ee" sound, it does provide such a pronunciation in words like 'Family'. I don't know of any better English letter to put in it's place in spelling Yahweh's name. If one were to choose an "I" sound, that would be fine..but being at the beginning of a word I doubt the sound would change.

This post is by no means complete. But as I said, I am working on a study on the proper pronunciation. I'll let everyone on the forum know when it is completed.

With love in HIs service,

EliYah

posted 11-29-1998 08:45 PM            

Anyone searching for the true name and pronunciation of the Almighty Creator of the Universe should instantly drop any references to Heathen mighty ones like 'Dios' 'Deus' 'God' and so on. Anyone still uttering the name of other mighty ones hates Yahweh because he/she doesn't keep his commandments, especially this one:

Exodus 23:13 * And in all things that I have said unto you take ye heed: and make no mention of the name of other mighty ones, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.

"Jove" may sound like Yahweh, but there is no evidence that the early Christians knew the name of Yahweh. If they did only the 'early church fathers' were the ones in position to know it. They already adopted Heathen names to substitute the sacred name, anyway. Bear in mind that the sacred name was hidden even from the disciples before they became followers of Yahushua.

John 17:26a * And I have declared unto them thy name...

I detect in MM's post a genuine Christian enthusiasm to discredit Yahweh's name by confusing it with 'Jove.' Well, he is over 1900 years too late. The 'early church fathers' already did that! 'Jove' is also known as 'Jupiter' ('Jove Paeter' or 'Father Jove') 'Jupiter' is also known as 'Zeus' and 'Dios' or 'Deus.' Latin language speaking Christians worship the Creator of the Universe using the Latinized Greek name of 'Zeus:' 'Deus' or 'Dios'

American Heritage Dictionary.
Indo-European Roots.
Deiw-: Root of 'Jove' 'Jupiter' 'Zeus'
Deiw- To shine (Lucifer?) (and in many derivatives 'sky, heaven, god'). 2 Latin deus III Variant *dyeu-. 1 Latin Jovis, of Jupiter. 3 Vocative compound *dyeu paeter (Greek, paeter: father) 'O Father Jove' (god of the bright sky), in Latin Juppiter head of the pantheon: Jupiter. 4 Greek Zeus (dios curi).

There is a "Pastoral" Spanish Catholic Bible version using the name 'Yave' (pronounced: Djahveh) and there is no given explanation for it. The point is this: Why do the modern language speaking Christians transliterated the names of Heathen mighty ones of Greek and Latin origin or picked up the names of a Germanic mighty one instead of using the name of Elohim Yahweh that is so readily available in the Hebrew Scriptures? This dislike of HaShem Yahweh and anything that is Hebrew is a trademark of Christianity.