Transcript of Sabbath Meeting - 06/26/98


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BrTom - Almighty Father, great king, our creator, and owner of all; we come before your throne together to bless your name and learn more of your ways.

BrTom - We ask you, for the sake of Yahshua's sacrifice, to forgive our...

BrTom - sins and our uncleanness and hear our prayer.

BrTom - Father, we praise and thank you for all the wonderful gifts...

BrTom - you have prepared for your children.

BrTom - We are so happy to call ourselves your sons and daughters..

BrTom - by your love and grace.

BrTom - Father, please be with us during this meeting

BrTom - teach us more of your ways..

BrTom - send your Spirit to guide all that is said.

BrTom - In the name of your son, our savior, Yahshua - HalleluYAH!!!

EliYah's message:

HalleluYah!!
Tonight I would like to share a subject that we have covered before in this channel
But it has been over a year and not many were here at the time it was shared
It is concerning the true nature of the Father, Yahweh. And His Son, our Messiah and Savior..Yahshua
Some want to tell us that we worship a trinity
When going furthur into this subject with one who believes a trinity, they often like to explain away the contradictions with saying:
"It's just one of the great mysteries of the faith"
A mystery indeed, it doesn't make sense!
3 is 1 yet 1 is all three yet all 3 are 1 and 1 is all 3...
Most of the basis of it is concerning the use of the title "Elohim", translated "God"
The word "Elohim" is the most overused word in trying to prove the Trinity.
I came to understand that this word does have other uses than 'deity'
It can also mean a "judge" or a "ruler"
This is also true of the word 'Theos' in greek
In fact, one of the translations translated it as 'ruler'
Their overtrust in this word can be refuted if you understand that Elohim is a title that describes Yahweh just as the word "King" or "Master" describes Yahweh..
It is not really a crown of some sort, as many Christians would say
It is true that there is only one Elohim..
Just as there is really only one Master..
But the word is used to describe man...
In this verse:

Psalms 29:1 - Give unto YAHWEH, O ye mighty, give unto YAHWEH glory and strength.

"Mighty" is "El" in Hebrew
And also one that Yahshua pointed out as we will get into later
The word is also used to describe angels and yes, Yahshua also
But it is certain that Father Yahweh is supreme and above all things!
But all things, all power and authority have been given to Yahshua
Yahweh is the giver of all life, the source of all things
From HIM all things flow..
It is written

Deuteronomy 6:4 - Hear, O Israel: YAHWEH is our Elohim, YAHWEH is one:

I believe in this scripture
Yahweh is definitely ONE
What is the meaning of "One"?
In Hebrew, it is the word "Echad"
I believe that Yahshua also used 'Echad' in His prayer:

John 17:20 - Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

John 17:21 - That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

John 17:22 - And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Can we be one as Yahweh and Yahshua are one?
Not one as in a number
But one in unity of thought and will and purpose!!
When our way is Yahweh's way...we are one with Him!
Does this mean that we are equal to Him?
Not even close
So oneness does not mean equality..

John 17:23 - I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Here is a place also where 'Echad' is used

Genesis 2:24 - Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

So it can't mean 1 as in a number
but one as in unity
Yahweh is one
There is no disunity within Him. There are no disagreements between Yahshua and Yahweh
They are one in purpose and in thought
And we can share that oneness with them, HalleluYah :)
Now the very essence of the word "Father" is one that describes a giver of life
Yahshua referred to Father Yahweh as such. As do we!
One should not ascribe the title "Father" to one who hasn't created them
The very fact that Yahshua calls Him "Father" shows that His Father is His creator

Proverbs 30:4 - Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

Here is an example of the Son being mentioned even in the Tanakh or Old Testament
Yahshua said:

John 17:3 - And this is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true Elohim, and Yahushua the Messiah, whom thou hast sent.

Yahshua called Him the only true Elohim!
Some might say that this was Yahshua speaking before He was glorified..in His earthly state
The trinitarians especially like to say that Yahshua didn't really mean this forever
but just for that time when He was on earth
We need to be on the lookout for excuses to excuse away scripture!
What did Yahshua call His Father AFTER His resurrection and ascension?

Revelations 3:12 - "He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My Elohim, and he shall go out no more. And I will write on him the name of My Elohim and the name of the city of My Elohim, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My Elohim. And I will write on him My new name.

Yahweh is STILL His Elohim!
Therefore it has not changed, Father Yahweh is still the Elohim of Yahshua, and therefore greater than He!

John 14:28 - Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Yahshua said it so plain!
HalleluYah!

John 10:27 - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John 10:28 - And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 10:29 - My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

All things are given TO Yahshua by the Father...
And Yahweh is greater than all!
I do not take honor from Yahshua in saying this
He is worthy of all praise, honor and yes.. "Worship"
In this I will elaborate later
But for now let's consider the position of Yahshua after all things are completed
After death is defeated
And we are with Him

1Corinthians 15:20 - But now is the Messiah risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1Corinthians 15:21 - For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

1Corinthians 15:22 - For as in Adam all die, even so in the Messiah shall all be made alive.

1Corinthians 15:23 - But every man in his own order: the Messiah the firstfruits; afterward they that are the Messiah's at his coming.

1Corinthians 15:24 - Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to YHWH, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Yahshua delivers the Kingdom to the Father

1Corinthians 15:25 - For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

1Corinthians 15:26 - The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Yes, Yahshua has the keys to death..

1Corinthians 15:27 - For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

Who is excepted? The Father is excepted, who is greater than all
He is the one who put all things under Yahshua

1Corinthians 15:28 - And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that YHWH may be all in all.

So Yahshua will be subject to Yahweh in a future time..even as now!
And this is the blessing of order !

1Corinthians 11:3 - But I would have you know, that the head of every man is the Messiah; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of the Messiah is YHWH.

Now let's look into this matter of worship

Matthew 28:16 - Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Yahushua had appointed them.

Matthew 28:17 - And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

Yes, the disciples worshipped Yahshua. And Yahshua accepted such!

Matthew 28:18 - And Yahushua came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

All power is GIVEN to Yahshua in heaven and earth!
HalleluYah!!
Yahshua is WORTHY!! For He overcame the world! And in Him there is LIFE and Salvation!
Now it is not unusual for one to worship somebody who represents the kingdom of Yahweh
Men worshipped David
Yes
It is true
Men worshipped David!
David was the anointed of Yahweh
The word anointed is "Mashiach" or Messiah!
Now David was Not Yahweh
But He represented Yahweh's kingdom of Israel

2Samuel 14:4 - And when the woman of Tekoah spake to the king, she fell on her face to the ground, and did obeisance, and said, Help, O king.

2Samuel 14:5 - And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, I am indeed a widow woman, and mine husband is dead.

Here, the word used for obeisance is also translated 'Worship' 99 other times in scripture
Even in Exodus 20 in the Ten Commandments we find this same original Hebrew word used

Psalms 45:6 - Thy throne, O Elohim, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

This is a psalm speaking of Yahshua the Messiah
It is quoted as such in Hebrews

Hebrews 1:8 - But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O Elohim, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.

Notice that the Son is called "Elohim" here

Psalms 45:7 - Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore Elohim, thy Elohim, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Here again, Yahshua's Elohim is none other than Father Yahweh!

Psalms 45:8 - All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia, out of the ivory palaces, whereby they have made thee glad.

Now this is an allegory of Yahshua and His assembly... much like Song of Solomon
Let's continue to read this

Psalms 45:9 - Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir.

Psalms 45:10 - Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father's house;

Psalms 45:11 - So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he is thy Master; and worship thou him.

This shows why we worship Yahshua, He is our Master and represents Yahweh!!!
But this doesn't mean that we worship a trinity!
There are a few verses...that many would try to show to support the Trinity doctrine...
Many of these scriptures happen to name 3 things in one sentence...Father, Son and Holy Spirit
They are used extensively by "trinity believers"
But those scriptures that name 3 things (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) do not prove what the position or role of the Father, Son or Holy Spirit is.
It does not make them co-equal...
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were mentioned many times in the Law and Prophets...
Are they triune also?
Peter, James and John are three names often used together in the NT, but this does not make them 3 in 1..
Let's look at one scripture in particular..

Matthew 28:19 - Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit:

Many would say this proves the trinity...
But most of them have no idea what this verse means
Consider Acts...

Acts 2:38 - Then Kepha said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Yahushua the Messiah for the forgiveness of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

For baptism do we have 2 conflicting scriptures?
One says in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
The other, the Son's name only
That is where those who KNOW the name of the Son become enlightened with a wonderful truth...
Yahshua means "Yahweh is Salvation"
Within the name of the Son we have also the name of the Father "Yah"
Even as Yahshua has said

John 5:43 - I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

He knew that He came in His Father's name
Therefore within the name of the Son, we also have the name of the Father
Now what about the name of the Holy Spirit?

John 14:26 - But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

It is sent in the name of Yahshua
Therefore Yahshua is the name for baptism
Therefore the disciples understood what He meant in Mat 28:19 and shortly after in Acts 2:38 baptized in Yahshua's name
So He certainly didn't mean Trinity
Now let's look at Philippians

Philippians 2:1 - If there be therefore any consolation in the Messiah, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,

Philippians 2:2 - Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

Philippians 2:3 - Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

In lowliness of mind!
Like whom?

Philippians 2:4 - Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

Philippians 2:5 - Let this mind be in you, which was also in the Messiah Yahushua:

Philippians 2:6 - Who, being in the form of Elohim, thought it not robbery to be equal with YAHWEH:

Now here is a clear example of the King James Version bias for the trinity
After examining the original language it is very clear that verse 6 is a mistranslation
The NIV (incredibly) clears up the text
Phil 2:6 (NIV) Who, being in very nature Elohim,
...did not consider equality with Elohim something to be grasped,
It means just the opposite! Look it up for yourself!
Yahshua did not think that equality with Yahweh was something even to be grasped
The context screams out this correct translation..
'The form of a servant" "Made Himself of no reputation" "Let this mind be in you," etc
continuing

Philippians 2:7 - But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Philippians 2:8 - And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Philippians 2:9 - Wherefore YAHWEH also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Who is greater, one who has the authority to exalt or the one being exalted???

Philippians 2:10 - That at the name of Yahushua every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Philippians 2:11 - And that every tongue should confess that Yahushua the Messiah is Master, to the glory of YAHWEH the Father.

If we lift up Yahshua, We are lifting up the Father...if we praise Yahshua , we are praising the Father!!
It is all to His Splendor and honor, HalleluYAH!!!

Matthew 28:18 - And Yahushua came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

All things GIVEN to Him!
By whom? Who could be greater?
The Father! Yahweh!
The source of all life and love and Spirit!!

John 5:14 - Afterward Yahushua findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

John 5:15 - The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Yahushua, which had made him whole.

John 5:16 - And therefore did the Jews persecute Yahushua, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

John 5:17 - But Yahushua answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

John 5:18 - Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that Elohim was his Father, making himself equal with Elohim.

Now here we have 2 accusations
1. He broke the Sabbath
2. He was making himself equal with Elohim
Neither were true
Anyway...Yahshua did not break the Sabbath
We know that, or He would have sinned
And He would have not been the lamb without blemish
Therefore, these were accusations from the leaders and not statements of doctrine, as some claim

John 10:31 - Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

John 10:32 - Yahushua answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

John 10:33 - The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself Elohim.

Here is the accusation again..
Now here would have been the opportunity for Yahshua to show them if He was Elohim in the sense of a deity
But rather, Yahshua demotes the greatness of such a title

John 10:34 - Yahushua answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are elohim?

This is a quote from a psalm. Again, It is truth that this word Elohim is used in reference to Angels, judges, men and yes, Yahshua
But never in sense of the "the source of all things, the giver of all life" to any other thing but Father Yahweh Himself
Which is why I believe Yahshua defended this claim with the scripture that refers to men as also "elohim'

John 10:35 - If he called them elohim, unto whom the word of YAHWEH came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

John 10:36 - Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of Elohim?

John 10:37 - If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

John 10:38 - But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

The source of all life, Father YAHWEH...is IN Him. But He ISN'T equal to Him
Yet, He IS worthy of praise and worship
Because He represents Yahweh and His power
And all honor we give Him, we are giving to Yahweh

John 8:13 - The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.

John 8:14 - Yahushua answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.

John 8:15 - Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

John 8:16 - And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

John 8:17 - It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

John 8:18 - I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

So two bear witness...now I ask, where is the Holy Spirit in all of this?

John 8:19 - Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Yahushua answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

Isn't that the third witness, if the trinity is truth?
The Holy Spirit is simply the Spirit of Yahweh
The Spirit proceeds from Yahweh

John 15:26 - But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

The Holy Spirit is that Spirit that proceeds from the Father, no wonder it is Kodesh!! (Holy).

John 8:42 - Yahushua said unto them, If Elohim were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from Elohim; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

See, Yahshua also comes from the Father...
I think there is a pattern here?
That ALL Things come from the Father! HalleluYah!

1Corinthians 8:5 - For though there be that are called mighty ones, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be mighty ones many, and masters many,)

1Corinthians 8:6 - But to us there is but one Elohim, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Master Yahushua the Messiah, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Is there not a distinction here in the position of the Father compared to who the Son is?? The Father is the source of all things and He does all things through Yahshua the Messiah!!
There is one Elohim and one Master..
And I don't see a seperate Holy Spirit here!
It is Yahweh's Spirit!
HalleluYah and may Yahweh's Spirit dwell in us to reveal to us His ways and His truth
And may Yahweh be with you and bless you all

End

BrBob - WOW !!! Praise the Father!!!

DelaYah - HalleluYAH!

BrBob -  \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ - HALLELUYAH - \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/

TrustInYHWH - HalleluYah!! \o/ HalleluYahweh!!

mmlamb - HALLELYAH

Ebed - 8,2 Praise YAHWEH! 

TrustInYHWH - HalleluYah, BrBob !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BrTom - Praise Yahweh!! \o/ \o/ \o/

B - this was great thanks eliYah

Berean - \O/\0/\o/\o/\o/\o/ Praise YHWH!!

EliYah - 4H1a2l3l5e6l7u4Yah!

Angel - 9,13Yahweh bless you also BrEliYah!

BrBob - Puts a real meaning to the term "Our Father which art in Heaven"

B - confirmed what we had known

BrBob - 8,2 Praise YAHWEH! 

TrustInYHWH - hallowed by thy name

TrustInYHWH - holy is your name

TrustInYHWH - DISCIPLE IN THE HOUSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BrBob - Hang in there Ebed...

Ebed - :o)

mmlamb - SHALOM EBED

mmlamb - SHALOM DREXEL

Ebed - 0,3 Shalom mmlamb 

BrBob - I seem to have server, and ISP probs....

Angel - 8,12HalleluYah to the King!

mmlamb - ME TOO

Berean - its the lightnin?

BrBob - Shalom Br_Thomas !

BrBob -  {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ Br_Thomas }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

EliYah - Are there any questions/comments?

BrBob -  {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ TrustInYHWH }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Ebed - 0,4{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{0,2 Berean 0,4}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

BrBob - I have one

mmlamb - VERY GOOD EXPLAINATION

Berean - +matt 12 50

Berean - {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ Ebed }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

DelaYah - {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{TIY}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Berean - {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Everyone}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Berean - BrBob has a question?

BrBob - Do you suppose that in the beginning that they may have been equal, or was Yahushsua (before his birth) maybe created by the Father?

EliYah - Go ahead BrBob

EliYah - I believe that Yahushua is a creation of Yahweh

DelaYah - {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Everyone}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

BrBob - NOt a long disertation, just a comment...

TrustInYHWH - Yahweh is one, and there is no one beside him

mmlamb - A SISTER IN TX THINKS THAT WHEN YHWH CREATED "LIGHT" IT WAS YAHUSHUA

Angel - 0,2 Hollowed be thy Name and thy Kindom come and Thy will be done!

EliYah - 4 Colossians 1:12 - Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

EliYah - 4 Colossians 1:13 - Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

mmlamb - WHAT DO YOU THINK?

EliYah - 4 Colossians 1:14 - In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

EliYah - 4 Colossians 1:15 - Who is the image of the invisible Elohim, the firstborn of every creature:

DelaYah - HalleluYAH! Angel!!!

Berean - +rev 3 14

Berean - \o/

EliYah - \o/

BrBob - My first question of the Father is: Where did you come from?

BrBob - 4================ 2PRAISE YAHWEH!!4 ================

BrBob - I find that I cannot argue this..... I think we are close to the truth here...

Angel - \0/ \0/ HalleluYah!

EliYah - 4,8Praise Yahweh!

BrBob - Shalom mmlamb !

BrBob -  {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ crash915 }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

mmlamb - SHALOM BR BOB

EliYah - Are there any other questions/comments?

Berean - +rev 1 8

Berean - is Yahshua referred to as YAHWEH then?

BrBob - Yes

Ebed - +john 1 1 3

EliYah - I have found that in the OT, Yahshua is sometimes called "Yahweh"

BrBob - I knew that

EliYah - And when He came to earth, He called Yahweh "The Father"

BrBob - yahweh is the Family name!

BrBob - How GREAT is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of Yahweh! And that is what we are!-- The reason the world does not know us is that IT DOES NOT know him. -- 2. Dear friends, now we are children of Yahweh, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM, for we shall see him as he is. 1 Jn 3:1

EliYah - One reason perhaps to distinguish Himself from Him as Yahweh

TrustInYHWH - HalleluYah!! \o/ HalleluYahweh!!

Prayer Service Witheld..

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