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Author Topic:   Is the servant in Isa 53:3 really "Jesus"?
AchLou

Posts: 11
Registered: Dec 2000

posted 12-09-2000 01:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AchLou     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Shabbat Shalom, Eliyah,

I welcome your new format!
Now, we can be assured of an official answer that complies with the eliyah.com dogma. Although, I will miss the easy "window shopping" diversity of the old format that allowed me to compare notes. Anyway, this is your toy and we enjoy playing with it.

BTW, I went to the URL that you posted in reply to my earlier post on "Paul's Proud Roman Citizenship" and I can't find it anymore. I can't even find my postÖ I'm concerned because I am very serious about repenting whenever I am in error.

As I was reading your comments at your URL on Isaiah 53 I noticed that you follow the old early church father's technique of presenting the 2 sides of an argument so that you can control the punch line. As you must remember, I had a lot of problems following that line of thought about what the church fathers believed or who said what. My question here is related to a book in the Tanak that you and I agree is Yahweh's word.

If I remember correctly what I read, you assume that the servant spoken in Isaiah 53:3 * He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. is Yahushua, a.k.a. "Jesus" among the Christians. The question that I have is that it seems to conflict with 2000 years of Christian history. I am basing my question on the following facts that seem to contradict Isaiah 53:3 if I were to assume that Yahushua is the servant spoken of in that verse. I want to make sure that I'm positively identifying HaMaschiach. I don't want to die like John the Baptist did still wondering if Yahushua was the real HaMaschiach. My faith is not blind. I need to have some intellectual gratification in what I believe.

I think that I can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that "Jesus Christ" was and still is an incredibly popular person drawing large crowds for any event in which he is honored. I am still welcoming more elements of judgment. I see that even the damned Pharisees invited Jesus to their houses for parties in which all kind of people attended, and it was not to poison him, either. Jesus doesn't seem to be the man of sorrows that Isaiah 53:3 talks about. He lived a very active young adult life freely enjoying everything that he was doing. He was also eating and drinking to his heart content, in fact he was known to love parties where drinks, and good food were served, and where prostitutes and other sinners were present. BTW, I am not judgmental about him. I can relate myself to his lifestyle. I know that there was a reason for anything that Jesus did. I'm using here the name of "Jesus Christ" instead of Yahushua HaMaschiach to make it easier to follow the documentation. I hate to confuse anyone about my question here if I switch Yahushua and Jesus back and forth.

Matthew 11:19 (NIV) The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, "Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners. But wisdom is proved right by her actions."

Mark 2:16 (NIV) When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: "Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?"

Luke 7:34 (NIV) The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, `Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.'

Luke 7:37 (NIV) When a woman who had lived a sinful life in that town learned that Jesus was eating at the Pharisee's house, she brought an alabaster jar of perfume,
38 and as she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them.
39 When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, "If this man were a prophet, he would know who is touching him and what kind of woman she is--that she is a sinner."

According to all the records that I read, Jesus Christ was so popular that sometimes he was running away from the crowds that were following him. He was so wrapped up with the crowds of followers that Jesus declined to see his own mother and brothers who wanted to talk to him. It is recorded that at some places THE WHOLE CITY or REGION came out to see him. the crowds were always ready to protect and help to keep the public order so Jesus could go about freely doing what he was doing. In fact, once a sick man couldnít get near him because of the crowd and they made a hole in the roof of the house to get the sick man down to see him. Once a short man had to climb a sycamore tree to see him because of the crowd. the crowds would go ahead of him announcing his presence. As soon as anyone heard that Jesus was coming to town large crowds came out to receive him and welcome him. Sometimes the crowds were so large that Jesus and his disciples couldn't eat their regular meals. the crowds would follow Jesus on foot and by boat. They didnít care that they had no food for the journey. In fact, the crowds that followed Jesus were so large and enthusiastic that the Chief Priests and Pharisees who were trying to arrest him were afraid of them that they had to wait for an opportunity to arrest him when no crowd was present. Of course, there was a crowd who yelled, "crucify him!" too, but in view of what I read throughout the NT it is hard to believe that this is the same crowd that followed him through the years all the way through the several stations of the via crucis. People from the crowds so esteemed Jesus that they were publicly kneeling before him, washing his feet with tears, and kissing his feet. There were a great number of followers who saw Jesus after his resurrection, too, and still others who believed but didnít see him. Please correct me if I'm wrong in all this.

Matt 4:25 (NIV) Large crowds from Galilee, the Decapolis, Jerusalem, Judea and the region across the Jordan followed him.
5:1 Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him,

Matt 7:28 (NIV) When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching,

Matt 8:1 (NIV) When he came down from the mountainside, large crowds followed him.

Matt 8:18 (NIV) When Jesus saw the crowd around him, he gave orders to cross to the other side of the lake.

Matt 9:8 (NIV) When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to men.

Matt 9:33 (NIV) And when the demon was driven out, the man who had been mute spoke. the crowd was amazed and said, "Nothing like this has ever been seen in Israel."

Matt 9:36 (NIV) When he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd.

Matt 11:7 (NIV) As John's disciples were leaving, Jesus began to speak to the crowd about John: "What did you go out into the desert to see? A reed swayed by the wind?

Matt 12:46 (NIV) While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him.

Matt 13:2 (NIV) Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore.

Matt 13:34 (NIV) Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable.

Matt 13:36 (NIV) Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."

Matt 14:13 (NIV) When Jesus heard what had happened, he withdrew by boat privately to a solitary place. Hearing of this, the crowds followed him on foot from the towns.
14 When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick.
15 As evening approached, the disciples came to him and said, "This is a remote place, and it's already getting late. Send the crowds away, so they can go to the villages and buy themselves some food."

Matt 14:22 (NIV) Immediately Jesus made the disciples get into the boat and go on ahead of him to the other side, while he dismissed the crowd.

Matt 15:10 (NIV) Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand.

Matt 15:30 (NIV) Great crowds came to him, bringing the lame, the blind, the crippled, the mute and many others, and laid them at his feet; and he healed them.

Matt 15:33 (NIV) His disciples answered, "Where could we get enough bread in this remote place to feed such a crowd?"

Matt 15:35 (NIV) He told the crowd to sit down on the ground.

Matt 15:39 (NIV) After Jesus had sent the crowd away, he got into the boat and went to the vicinity of Magadan.

Matt 17:14 (NIV) When they came to the crowd, a man approached Jesus and knelt before him.

Matt 19:2 (NIV) Large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.

Matt 20:29 (NIV) As Jesus and his disciples were leaving Jericho, a large crowd followed him.

Matt 20:31 (NIV) the crowd rebuked them and told them to be quiet, but they shouted all the louder, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!"

Matt 21:8 (NIV) A very large crowd spread their cloaks on the road, while others cut branches from the trees and spread them on the road.
9 the crowds that went ahead of him and those that followed shouted, "Hosanna to the Son of David!" "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" "Hosanna in the highest!"
10 When Jesus entered Jerusalem, the whole city was stirred and asked, "Who is this?"
11 the crowds answered, "This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth in Galilee."

Matt 21:46 (NIV) They looked for a way to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowd because the people held that he was a prophet.

Matt 22:33 (NIV) When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at his teaching.

Matt 23:1 (NIV) Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:

Mark 2:13 (NIV) Once again Jesus went out beside the lake. A large crowd came to him, and he began to teach them.

Mark 3:7 (NIV) Jesus withdrew with his disciples to the lake, and a large crowd from Galilee followed.
8 When they heard all he was doing, many people came to him from Judea, Jerusalem, Idumea, and the regions across the Jordan and around Tyre and Sidon.
9 Because of the crowd he told his disciples to have a small boat ready for him, to keep the people from crowding him.

Mark 3:20 (NIV) Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat.

Mark 3:32 (NIV) A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, "Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you."

Mark 4:1 (NIV) Again Jesus began to teach by the lake. the crowd that gathered around him was so large that he got into a boat and sat in it out on the lake, while all the people were along the shore at the water's edge.

Mark 4:36 (NIV) Leaving the crowd behind, they took him along, just as he was, in the boat. There were also other boats with him.

Mark 5:21 (NIV) When Jesus had again crossed over by boat to the other side of the lake, a large crowd gathered around him while he was by the lake.

Mark 5:24 (NIV) So Jesus went with him. A large crowd followed and pressed around him.

Mark 5:27 (NIV) When she heard about Jesus, she came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak,

Mark 5:30 (NIV) At once Jesus realized that power had gone out from him. He turned around in the crowd and asked, "Who touched my clothes?"
31 "You see the people crowding against you," his disciples answered, "and yet you can ask, `Who touched me?'"

Mark 6:34 (NIV) When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them, because they were like sheep without a shepherd. So he began teaching them many things.

Mark 6:45 (NIV) Immediately Jesus made his disciples get into the boat and go on ahead of him to Bethsaida, while he dismissed the crowd.

Mark 7:14 (NIV) Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this.

Mark 7:17 (NIV) After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable.

Mark 7:33 (NIV) After he took him aside, away from the crowd, Jesus put his fingers into the man's ears. Then he spit and touched the man's tongue.

Mark 8:1 (NIV) During those days another large crowd gathered. Since they had nothing to eat, Jesus called his disciples to him and said,

Mark 8:6 (NIV) He told the crowd to sit down on the ground. When he had taken the seven loaves and given thanks, he broke them and gave them to his disciples to set before the people, and they did so.

Mark 8:34 (NIV) Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

Mark 9:14 (NIV) When they came to the other disciples, they saw a large crowd around them and the teachers of the law arguing with them.
15 As soon as all the people saw Jesus, they were overwhelmed with wonder and ran to greet him.
16 "What are you arguing with them about?" he asked.
17 A man in the crowd answered, "Teacher, I brought you my son, who is possessed by a spirit that has robbed him of speech.

Mark 9:25 (NIV) When Jesus saw that a crowd was running to the scene, he rebuked the evil spirit. "You deaf and mute spirit," he said, "I command you, come out of him and never enter him again."

Mark 10:1 (NIV) Jesus then left that place and went into the region of Judea and across the Jordan. Again crowds of people came to him, and as was his custom, he taught them.

Mark 11:18 (NIV) The chief priests and the teachers of the law heard this and began looking for a way to kill him, for they feared him, because the whole crowd was amazed at his teaching.

Mark 12:12 (NIV) Then they looked for a way to arrest him because they knew he had spoken the parable against them. But they were afraid of the crowd; so they left him and went away.

Mark 12:37 (NIV) David himself calls him `Lord.' How then can he be his son?" The large crowd listened to him with delight.

Luke 5:1 (NIV) One day as Jesus was standing by the Lake of Gennesaret, with the people crowding around him and listening to the word of God,

Luke 5:15 (NIV) Yet the news about him spread all the more, so that crowds of people came to hear him and to be healed of their sicknesses.

Luke 5:19 (NIV) When they could not find a way to do this because of the crowd, they went up on the roof and lowered him on his mat through the tiles into the middle of the crowd, right in front of Jesus.

Luke 6:17 (NIV) He went down with them and stood on a level place. A large crowd of his disciples was there and a great number of people from all over Judea, from Jerusalem, and from the coast of Tyre and Sidon,

Luke 7:9 (NIV) When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, "I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel."

Luke 7:11 (NIV) Soon afterward, Jesus went to a town called Nain, and his disciples and a large crowd went along with him.

Luke 7:24 (NIV) After John's messengers left, Jesus began to speak to the crowd about John: "What did you go out into the desert to see? A reed swayed by the wind?

Luke 8:4 (NIV) While a large crowd was gathering and people were coming to Jesus from town after town, he told this parable:

Luke 8:19 (NIV) Now Jesus' mother and brothers came to see him, but they were not able to get near him because of the crowd.

Luke 8:40 (NIV) Now when Jesus returned, a crowd welcomed him, for they were all expecting him.

Luke 8:42 (NIV) because his only daughter, a girl of about twelve, was dying. As Jesus was on his way, the crowds almost crushed him.

Luke 8:45 (NIV) "Who touched me?" Jesus asked. When they all denied it, Peter said, "Master, the people are crowding and pressing against you."

Luke 9:11 (NIV) but the crowds learned about it and followed him. He welcomed them and spoke to them about the kingdom of God, and healed those who needed healing.
12 Late in the afternoon the Twelve came to him and said, "Send the crowd away so they can go to the surrounding villages and countryside and find food and lodging, because we are in a remote place here."
13 He replied, "You give them something to eat." They answered, "We have only five loaves of bread and two fish--unless we go and buy food for all this crowd."
14 (About five thousand men were there.) But he said to his disciples, "Have them sit down in groups of about fifty each."

Luke 9:37 (NIV) The next day, when they came down from the mountain, a large crowd met him.
38 A man in the crowd called out, "Teacher, I beg you to look at my son, for he is my only child.

Luke 11:14 (NIV) Jesus was driving out a demon that was mute. When the demon left, the man who had been mute spoke, and the crowd was amazed.

Luke 11:27 (NIV) As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you."

Luke 11:29 (NIV) As the crowds increased, Jesus said, "This is a wicked generation. It asks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.

Luke 12:1 (NIV) Meanwhile, when a crowd of many thousands had gathered, so that they were trampling on one another, Jesus began to speak first to his disciples, saying: "Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

Luke 12:13 (NIV) Someone in the crowd said to him, "Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me."

Luke 12:54 (NIV) He said to the crowd: "When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, `It's going to rain,' and it does.

Luke 14:25 (NIV) Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said:

Luke 19:3 (NIV) He wanted to see who Jesus was, but being a short man he could not, because of the crowd.

Luke 19:37 (NIV) When he came near the place where the road goes down the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of disciples began joyfully to praise God in loud voices for all the miracles they had seen:

Luke 19:39 (NIV) Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Jesus, "Teacher, rebuke your disciples!"

Luke 22:6 (NIV) He consented, and watched for an opportunity to hand Jesus over to them when no crowd was present.

Luke 23:27 (NIV) A large number of people followed him, including women who mourned and wailed for him.

John 6:2 (NIV) and a great crowd of people followed him because they saw the miraculous signs he had performed on the sick.

John 6:22 (NIV) The next day the crowd that had stayed on the opposite shore of the lake realized that only one boat had been there, and that Jesus had not entered it with his disciples, but that they had gone away alone.

John 6:24 (NIV) Once the crowd realized that neither Jesus nor his disciples were there, they got into the boats and went to Capernaum in search of Jesus.

John 7:31 (NIV) Still, many in the crowd put their faith in him. They said, "When the Christ comes, will he do more miraculous signs than this man?"
32 The Pharisees heard the crowd whispering such things about him. Then the chief priests and the Pharisees sent temple guards to arrest him.

John 12:9 (NIV) Meanwhile a large crowd of Jews found out that Jesus was there and came, not only because of him but also to see Lazarus, whom he had raised from the dead.

John 12:11 (NIV) for on account of him many of the Jews were going over to Jesus and putting their faith in him.
12 The next day the great crowd that had come for the Feast heard that Jesus was on his way to Jerusalem.
13 They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting, "Hosanna!" "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" "Blessed is the King of Israel!"

John 12:17 (NIV) Now the crowd that was with him when he called Lazarus from the tomb and raised him from the dead continued to spread the word.
18 Many people, because they had heard that he had given this miraculous sign, went out to meet him.

John 12:29 (NIV) the crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him.

Acts 21:20 (NIV) When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: "You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law.

To this number of ballots we can add the "many" and also any uncounted Jew who believed in Yahushua through the effort of Paul regardless of his doctrine. The overwhelming majority of verses in the "gospels" show that Jesus was not rejected, but that he was very popular and sought after person. The record shows that he was hardly familiar with any grief or sorrow, too. I think that this is the impression that the Christian gets looking at the crucifix. Jesus didn't have to go through any holocaust, either. He had someone carrying his "cross." In fact, he died quickly and no bone of his had to be cracked. All in all today Christianity is very prosperous especially around Christmas time. Some political parties and many cities and landmarks in the world bear the name of Christ, and so on. The most expensive art in the world include paintings of Jesus. Nobody is really hiding his face from Jesus. All branches of Christianity draw large crowds to their meetings.

So, I wonder why is it that I find it difficult to believe that Yahushua is the servant described in Isaiah 53:3? I know that Isaiah 53's composition is a bit awkward and hard to interpret, but I would have no difficulties to understand that the servant in Isaiah 53:3 is Israel because the Jews were ALWAYS despised and rejected by men. As a whole the Jews are men of sorrows and very well familiar with suffering. Men in general don't want to know anything about them. A case in point, when 6,000,000 of them went up the way of the smokestack. For years throughout WWII the whole world hid their faces from the Jews and didn't esteem them one bit. The Christian nation of America refused them asylum. Some even says that the holocaust never took place. You know that today hardly anyone gives a hoot about Israel. So, am I doing wrong in believing that the servant in Isaiah 53:3 is Israel? I hope and trust that you take this as an honest question in my quest for the truth. I am not looking to win any argument. If you have a good point I'm willing to reconsider my convictions. As you probably know, I already gave up on a lot of Christian crap that I used to believe. Do I need to believe that Isaiah 53:3 is Yahushua?

I may be dead wrong so please tell me. Considering Israel to be Yahweh's servant this is the way I read Isaiah 53:3Ö

(Israel) was despised and rejected by men, a (people) of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces (Israel) was despised, and (humankind) esteemed (that people) not.

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EliYah

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posted 12-10-2000 02:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for EliYah     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:

Lou wrote:

"Of course, there was a crowd who yelled, "crucify him!" too, but in view of what I read throughout the NT it is hard to believe that this is the same crowd that followed him through the years all the way through the several stations of the via crucis."




Just because you find that hard to believe, that doesn't make it untrue. I've seen it happen many times even in modern days. A new political or cultural figure will appear on the scene, and everyone adores and respects them. Then, the media spreads some untrue gossip about the person and all of a sudden, everyone hates him.

Your long post was little more than a failed attempt to nit-pick a passage that not only obviously speaks about the coming Messiah, but also fits the description of Yahushua the Messiah like a glove.

The fact that the timing of his death was on Passover would prove that the crowds would be in Jerusalem attending the commanded feast. Besides this, as you said the crowds followed Him everywhere. And while the crowds adored Yahushua (as your quote in all bold text says) when He entered Jerusalem on the 10th day of Abib:


Matthew 21:6 And the disciples went, and did as Yahushua commanded them, 7 And brought the ass, and the colt, and put on them their clothes, and they set him thereon. 8 And a very great multitude spread their garments in the way; others cut down branches from the trees, and strawed them in the way. 9 And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of Yahweh; Hosanna in the highest.

They later rejected Him:

Matthew 27:20 But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Yahushua. 21 The governor answered and said unto them, Whether of the twain will ye that I release unto you? They said, Barabbas. 22 Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Yahushua which is called Messiah? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified.
23 And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified. 24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.


Isaiah 53:3 He is despised and rejected by men..

John 8:48 Then the Jews answered and said to Him, "Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?" 49 Yahshua answered, "I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me.

Mark 15:17 And they clothed Him with purple; and they twisted a crown of thorns, put it on His [head], 18 and began to salute Him, "Hail, King of the Jews!" 19 Then they struck Him on the head with a reed and spat on Him; and bowing the knee, they worshiped Him. 20 And when they had mocked Him, they took the purple off Him, put His own clothes on Him, and led Him out to crucify Him.

..A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.

Matt 26:37 And He took with Him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and He began to be sorrowful and deeply distressed. 38 Then He said to them, "My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay here and watch with Me." 39 He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, "O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will."

And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.

Acts 3:13 "The Elohim of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the Elohim of our fathers, glorified His Servant Yahshua, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let [Him] go. 14 "But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 15 "and killed the Prince of life, whom Yahweh raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses.

Isaiah's prophecy could not be speaking of Judah because Isaiah is from the tribe of Judah and He says "We esteemed Him not". The "We" would be Judah, thus the Servant cannot be Judah.

My answer to your last post is in the archives at http://www.eliyah.com/forum2/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20001207-7-000119.html

Lou, I think it's time to start following the Scriptures instead of questioning them. The path to truth involves reading the scriptures, learning righteousness and walking in it...not finding ways to reject those scriptures that might otherwise convict you!


------------------
With love in His service,

EliYah

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