I read this article in the paper and it makes great sense to me.
I would like to hear your thoughts;

Q: Lately I have been asked to add my name to calling lists or to pray for a specific sick baby, cancer patient or accident victim whom I don't know personally. My heart goes out to all of these causes but I am uncomfortable with the mental picture of God using a clipboard to keep score of how many prayers are sent for each person and then dispensing comfort and healing accordingly. What happens to those who have no one to pray for them?

--L., Las Vegas

A: All right, L, you'd better appreciate this, because answering religious questions gets me into more trouble than any other kind of column I write. The last time I wandered into theological territory, a guy wrote me and said, "I never read your column except when you pretend to know something about Christianity." Which I thought was pretty funny, because I guess he must have, like, a personal assistant who reads my column and then alerts him when the content includes Christianity. If he never reads it, how else would he know?

As I often do, let's first answer your question literally. Because, if taken literally, your question answers itself. If God dispenses comfort and healing according to the clipboard score of quantity of prayers, then, if no one is praying for you, you won't get any help from God. I'm saying, if your "mental picture" is accurate, then you've answered your own question.

And if this is an accurate depiction of God, I would feel more than merely uncomfortable. I would conclude that God would not be worthy of worship. God withholding love, care and intervention until we ask for it with sufficient sincerity or in the right form or with sufficient critical mass of numbers is like a parent not feeding a toddler until he can ask for food properly. It's ridiculous and offensive.

In 1988, the roof tore off Aloha 243 (Boeing 737) just after takeoff. In a spectacular act of heroism and skill, the pilots landed the plane safely. Only one life was lost, that of the lead attendant who was unlucky enough to be standing directly beneath that part of the fuselage torn off. The decompression pulled her out of the plane. She was dead long before she hit the Pacific Ocean.

I recall watching the live news coverage of deplaning passengers, all stunned and grateful to be alive. Over and over again I heard those passengers talk of prayer, of how prayer had brought them home safely, of how God had responded faithfully to their prayers. And I remember thinking, "Hmm . . . so, if I'm the mother, father, husband or child of the dead flight attendant, what am I to conclude? She swooshed out of the plane before she had time to pray, so God was obliged to let her plummet into the sea? And what percentage of passengers needs to be praying for God to be obliged to save the entire airplane? Is one enough, assuming the prayer is stellar?"

L, your question focuses on who God is. But I would encourage you to reshape the question into "What is prayer?"

At the heart of this discussion are spiritually immature ideas about prayer. It stuns me -- and I mean stuns me -- how many sincere religious people have never thought through the difference between prayer and magic. I am especially astonished when I consider historically that Jews and Christians are particularly scornful of magic. But every time I hear the phrase "the power of prayer," I shake my head. If prayer has power, then prayer is magic, no different from "Open Sesame" or "Abracadabra."

Prayer is not magic. Prayer doesn't have power, L. God does. So here's a working definition of prayer that makes more sense to me: Prayer is a primordial language by which we surrender our will (our power) to make way for the will (the power) of God. See, it's not about clutching after what we want; rather, it's about relinquishing wants altogether. It's about getting connected to our spiritual source whether the plane lands safely or crashes in a fireball.

And let's throw this in for that guy I mentioned in the first paragraph: Jesus himself models my definition of prayer the night before he dies. He kneels alone in a garden, and makes his fervent plea, which is pretty much THIS STINKS, GET ME OUTA HERE! Then, in prayer, he surrenders that desire by saying, "but, not my will, but thine be done."

quote:

---

Originally posted by squartucci:
Shalom all

I read this article in the paper and it makes great sense to me.
I would like to hear your thoughts;

Q: Lately I have been asked to add my name to calling lists or to pray for a specific sick baby, cancer patient or accident victim whom I don't know personally. My heart goes out to all of these causes but I am uncomfortable with the mental picture of God using a clipboard to keep score of how many prayers are sent for each person and then dispensing comfort and healing accordingly. What happens to those who have no one to pray for them?

--L., Las Vegas

A: All right, L, you'd better appreciate this, because answering religious questions gets me into more trouble than any other kind of column I write. The last time I wandered into theological territory, a guy wrote me and said, "I never read your column except when you pretend to know something about Christianity." Which I thought was pretty funny, because I guess he must have, like, a personal assistant who reads my column and then alerts him when the content includes Christianity. If he never reads it, how else would he know?

As I often do, let's first answer your question literally. Because, if taken literally, your question answers itself. If God dispenses comfort and healing according to the clipboard score of quantity of prayers, then, if no one is praying for you, you won't get any help from God. I'm saying, if your "mental picture" is accurate, then you've answered your own question.

And if this is an accurate depiction of God, I would feel more than merely uncomfortable. I would conclude that God would not be worthy of worship. God withholding love, care and intervention until we ask for it with sufficient sincerity or in the right form or with sufficient critical mass of numbers is like a parent not feeding a toddler until he can ask for food properly. It's ridiculous and offensive.

In 1988, the roof tore off Aloha 243 (Boeing 737) just after takeoff. In a spectacular act of heroism and skill, the pilots landed the plane safely. Only one life was lost, that of the lead attendant who was unlucky enough to be standing directly beneath that part of the fuselage torn off. The decompression pulled her out of the plane. She was dead long before she hit the Pacific Ocean.

I recall watching the live news coverage of deplaning passengers, all stunned and grateful to be alive. Over and over again I heard those passengers talk of prayer, of how prayer had brought them home safely, of how God had responded faithfully to their prayers. And I remember thinking, "Hmm . . . so, if I'm the mother, father, husband or child of the dead flight attendant, what am I to conclude? She swooshed out of the plane before she had time to pray, so God was obliged to let her plummet into the sea? And what percentage of passengers needs to be praying for God to be obliged to save the entire airplane? Is one enough, assuming the prayer is stellar?"

L, your question focuses on who God is. But I would encourage you to reshape the question into "What is prayer?"

At the heart of this discussion are spiritually immature ideas about prayer. It stuns me -- and I mean stuns me -- how many sincere religious people have never thought through the difference between prayer and magic. I am especially astonished when I consider historically that Jews and Christians are particularly scornful of magic. But every time I hear the phrase "the power of prayer," I shake my head. If prayer has power, then prayer is magic, no different from "Open Sesame" or "Abracadabra."

Prayer is not magic. Prayer doesn't have power, L. God does. So here's a working definition of prayer that makes more sense to me: Prayer is a primordial language by which we surrender our will (our power) to make way for the will (the power) of God. See, it's not about clutching after what we want; rather, it's about relinquishing wants altogether. It's about getting connected to our spiritual source whether the plane lands safely or crashes in a fireball.

And let's throw this in for that guy I mentioned in the first paragraph: Jesus himself models my definition of prayer the night before he dies. He kneels alone in a garden, and makes his fervent plea, which is pretty much THIS STINKS, GET ME OUTA HERE! Then, in prayer, he surrenders that desire by saying, "but, not my will, but thine be done."

And he suffers. And he dies. Not in the power of prayer, but in the power of his Maker.

---

This is a difficult one for me. I've been thinking about how to reply to this ever since you posted it. I've even prayed about it.

On the one hand, I want to defend prayer having power. I want to post scripture about the fervent, effectual prayers of the righteous being strong and powerful; about how if we ask anything in Yahushua's name, it will be done and the power that this yields and so on. I want to give, and ask for, testimonies of how prayer has been answered...how it has affected much...how it has packed a powerful punch against the forces of evil. I can assert all of this with confidence, because it is all true.

On the other hand, I also am not crazy. For every testimony I can give. I can give another where prayer didn't change an outer situation; where an undesired result prevailed and where I know folk who have asked in faith, in His name, on His word and believed with all that they were, yet have felt the let down...the sting of disappointment...of receiving the exact opposite of what they prayed for.

The author of the column you posted was correct in illustrating Messiah's prayer clearly stating his own desire, yet clearly submitting His outcome to the Father's will. I also love the detail, the declaration and the acceptance in the prayer He prescribed to us and emulate it often in my own prayer life. It's for this reason that, although I believe scripture, I'm careful not to lean too much on my own desires anymore. Of course, I make them known, but I believe they're already known, so even that's a formality, lol. But I make them known and then only ask that I be shown His will, but that His will be done even if He never shows it to me beforehand. My goal now is to completely accept whatever comes my way, even if it's the most undesired thing I'd never want, but to accept it because I know I've sought to surrender to His will and His will is always perfect even when it doesn't look perfect in my own eyes.

A couple of summers ago, I had this debate with a few people I know. I'd told a young girl, who was about 7 years old at the time, to pray whenever she was afraid or uncertain and Elohim would safely protect and deliver her from whatever fear she had. Her parents and another adult heard us talking and admonished me for telling her that. Everyone was a bible born and raised believer and I couldn't understand why they'd take issue with telling a child to trust Yahweh in this way. Well, we got into a long debate about how prayers aren't always as simply answered and a person can still be harmed when they're afraid, even if they've prayed and trusted that they wouldn't. One adult shared how such a rigid belief in prayer had caused them to relinquish their faith for some time as they'd prayed that a sick parent would be healed and, instead, that parent died. This person remained angry with Yahweh for many years over the misunderstanding that prayer always changes a situation for what we believe to be the better. Stubbornly, I held my position on that day, but the whole conversation stuck with me and has forced me to consider the fact that sometimes prayer makes us feel good, helps us refocus and is even sometimes answered, but that it doesn't always save lives, heal sick people or rescue us from danger. Prayer often gets us out of a bind, but not always. Prayer often brings us blessings, but not always. And is it prayer that does any of this or is it His will even without our prayers?

Then I began to consider that maybe it's His will for certain things to happen, even when we pray to avoid them. That's not a comfortable thought, however, when you think about the parents who pray night and day for the protection of their children only for their children to be killed in an accident or kidnapped, tortured, raped and murdered. Could this all be the Father's will? I'm not arrogant enough to believe that I always know His thoughts or plans, but I also have a hard time believing that He actually wills for these children to be harmed in such ways despite the prayers of many people praying for their safe return.

The power of prayer that I have definitively and consistently witnessed is the power that prayer has over me. Prayer strengthens and narrows my focus. It calms me. It reassures me that, whatever the outcome, it is ultimately His kingdom, His say so and I am merely a part of His purpose. Then, I get to a place where my desire is minuscule in comparison to His grand scheme and I'm just happy to have His ear even if He decides to go a different direction from my desires. Ultimately, I arrive at a place where my want no longer matters. I've gotten it off of my chest, but am leaving the final word in His hands and determined to accept whatever the outcome. In this approach, I've yet to find disappointment.

So, I think the author is correct. I also think the scriptures citing power in prayer are correct. How I juxtapose this isn't always clear, nor will it probably ever be, but I'm not prepared to declare the scriptures false, nor am I prepared to deny reality. The only clear choice in the matter is that I speak my heart, make my desires known and then immediately release them...as in my attachment to seeing them fulfilled...ask for His mercy, His grace and then completely give way to His will being done whether I like it or not.

Thank you Stephen and Free for your responses. Wonderfully worded.

I have been questioning this topic for some time. I have always had concerns about prayer and asked YHWH "why am I telling you things you already know and telling you what needs to be done about it?" It all seemed so silly to me.

But the real delving into the subject came after my nephew Jerry died.
Many of you followed me through that ordeal via the Prayer Forum.

On the day that he died May 25th, I had a confidence and boldness that was beyond myself. I had no doubts or fears. I wasn't fighting them either, they just were not present. I interpreted this supernatural presence of YHWH inside of me as a sure sign that we were going to see a miraculous turn of events. I called a few people who I knew could stand with me and sure enough they too believed that Jerry would live. Not politely agreeing to it but wholeheartedly.

At 6:30 PM that evening the doctors declared that he had suffered brain death and they were going to sign the death certificate.Even then I did not flinch but responded that it was only a piece of paper.

I went home that evening and about 11PM (later I found out it was the time that they removed his support) I felt a grief come over me, like someone had poured a bucket of it over my head. I cried out to YHWH for his widow.
Yet I still felt no receding of my earlier confidence. Perhaps it sounds strange to be confident and hopeful and yet to grieve but it was so.

I had to deal with the disappointment of what I had thought was going to be a straight up miracle. I did, by His grace, and here is what I wrote and spoke at the funeral;
*****
I danced at Jerry and Maile's wedding and I expected them to love each other until death parted them.
But I didn't expect the death part to be so soon.

I didn't expect this funeral. None of us did, I am sure.
But I reeeeeally did not expect this.

As I stood praying with many of you at the hospital over that weekend.
My prayer was for God to preserve Jerry's life and to restore his body.
And I was VERY confident that I was going to get what I expected.
I was confident because I love God and he loves me
and the bible says I can ask anything and receive it.
It says I can move mountains.
It says I lay hands on the sick and they recover.
But I didn't get what I expected.
I was disappointed and angry and I began to question my faith.

As it was slowly sinking in that Jerry was gone, I tried to NOT think about myself but I couldn't.
I couldn't help but imagine what it would be like to lose MY husband.
Needless to say, the imagination disturbed me so much that I turned to my husband and told him "you better not leave me because I would be lost without you."
Immediately after the words left my mouth there came a small still voice that said " But that was the deal Sharon - to love, honor and cherish till DEATH - There was nothing in the deal about how long that would be"

"True" I agreed "but I have expectations."

I have had 22 years with my husband and I am expecting more, at least 40 more years before death parts us.
But I have no guarantee, only expectations.
I realized that not only do I NOT have any guarantees but I KNEW it when I married him. That's why I agreed to better or worse, richer or poorer, sickness or health.
Of course I expect Better, Richer and Healthy but no guarantees and I vowed to love, honor and cherish either way.

I can now see that I needed to question my expectations instead of my faith because my faith in God is like marriage - for 'better' or 'worse' and I have no guarantees - only expectations.

But when with those expectations fail I am left with faith.

Faith in What?

For me, that God is good.

I will continue to have expectations.

I expect to go to bed tonight and wake up tomorrow
I expect the sun to rise and
I expect to dance at my grandchildren's wedding but if all my expectations crumble like dust these three things remain.

Faith, Hope and Love
and the greatest of these is love.

I wish to encourage you to continue in great love.
Continue in love for Jerry
love for each other
and love for God, ...

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life,... nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 ...shall be able to separate us from the love that God has for us.
***************
I experienced only a slight retraction of that confidence when they closed the casket and lowered the body into the grave. I was assured it was finished but then I was quickly brisked off to the reminder of the Happy Day on the other side.

It has been just over a month now and something dawned on me.(a rainbow after the storm?)
On May 25th, by the grace of YHWH, I had experienced being an eternal, hopeless optimist.
For the first time ever, in the face of hopelessness, I had experienced a hope (like Abraham?)Rom 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope,...

I realize you don't know me personally and therefore you may not realize how profound of an event that is, but it is quite profound. LOL
Not that I was the world's greatest pessimist but I had my share.
I realized I had held a deep belief that if you were pessimistic you would never be disappointed. It made sense to me. So I avoided disappointment by not getting the hopes TOO high.
But this time I had hoped against all hope and true I was disappointed for a moment but I realized that disappointment is not fatal and to be avoided at all costs.
I realized those costs too because LOVE is an optimist DUH
1Co 13:7 Bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
1Co 13:8 Love never fails:

I don't know if one can be a pessimist and walk in perfect love???
What thinks you?

Rom 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation works patience;
Rom 5:4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
Rom 5:5 And hope makes not ashamed; because the love of Elohim has been poured out in our hearts by the Set-apart Spirit which was given to us.

I believe that May 25th was a 'freebie', a gift from YHWH but now that I have tasted it is my choice to choose optimism. (Deu 30:19)

********Deliverance is a gift, life is a choice.***********
Exo 6:6 “Say, therefore, to the children of Yisra’ĕl, ‘I am יהוה, and I shall bring you out from under the burdens of the Mitsrites, and shall deliver you from their enslaving, and shall redeem you with an outstretched arm, and with great judgments,
Exo 6:7 and shall take you as My people, and I shall be your Elohim. And you shall know that I am יהוה your Elohim who is bringing you out from under the burdens of the Mitsrites.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth as witness this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live:

Thank you for reading and sharing this with me.
I pray that you may all experience hope against all hope as our father, Abraham and choose it always.

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the descendants; not to those only who are of the law, but to those also who are of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made you a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead, and calls those things which are not as though they were.
Rom 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall your descendants be.

Gal 3:29 And if you are of Messiah, then you are seed of Aḇraham, and heirs according to promise.

Love and Shalom,
Sharon

The Faith of the Centurion

5When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6"Lord," he said, "my servant lies at home paralyzed and in terrible suffering."

7Jesus said to him, "I will go and heal him."

8The centurion replied, "Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it."

10When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

13Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! It will be done just as you believed it would." And his servant was healed at that very hour.

Prayer has some to do with it; but prayer is literally asking. If I, as a father, had to wait for my kids to ask, they'd not get their vegetables and would get a heck of a lot more candy than is good for them.

Same way with the Eternal Father; if he waited for me to ask, I'd be a darn sight less cared for than I am. And sometimes I ask for things which aren't the best for me - and I don't even realize it. So he says "no" or just ignores the plea.

quote:

---

Originally posted by JMSchattke:
We are given what is needful, within our faith.

Prayer has some to do with it; but prayer is literally asking. If I, as a father, had to wait for my kids to ask, they'd not get their vegetables and would get a heck of a lot more candy than is good for them.

Same way with the Eternal Father; if he waited for me to ask, I'd be a darn sight less cared for than I am. And sometimes I ask for things which aren't the best for me - and I don't even realize it. So he says "no" or just ignores the plea.

Sometimes, even, our faith is weak in the request. If I ask for a clear sunny day, knowing the weatherman has predicted clouds and rain - can I honestly say I don't expect the clouds on some level?

---

Great point!

Thanks for adding to my understanding.