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Author Topic:   Polygamy
Missy

Posts: 2643
Registered: Aug 2005

posted 05-31-2007 08:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Missy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by comehome:


Missy with all due respect I feel you are just as wrong as two boys kissing in church.

The western mind set is one wife. In the east it is not so. Bottom line: if you criticize this issue to the extent that you feel polygamy is deplorable you pass judgment on Abraham, Israel, Guideon, David, etc. and the list is long. Having more than one wife is not lustful unless the man is lustful. Polygamy is an instrument of sorts (part of a marriage contract) and like any other instrument it can be used for both worng and right things. Messiah married all believers a form of spiritual polygamy and yet all believers are ONE. The opposite is not the same. Please be sure, if indeed it is the case, that you not emotionalize this subject. Polygamy or no polygamy is a mtter of opinion and not scriptural fact. I believe arguments against polygamy are biased and based on Western Civilization. I am not saying that I would or would not exercise this right I just wanted to state this point that so many people fight over.

Thank you



LOL! Interesting your mind thinks of two boys kissing in church. What a rather wonky thing to state... hmmmm. I personally don't care what does or doesn't go on in church since we don't go to baal's temple(church).

To the subject at hand:

Frankly, I am not the only one that believes SCRIPTURE does not promote Polygamy. It's rather suspect that you pick me out though.. but I've never had any issue defending my beliefs so that's fine by me.

So here's the deal:

When I criticize having more than one spouse.. I critize what I believe Scripture doesn't promote to do. So I am in line with Scripture according to what I read in Scripture.

And these irrelevant excuses concerning that certain men in Scripture were polgynists is rather moot and really don't help the case for polygnists or their supporters. No man in Scripture was perfect besides Yeshua.. period. And he DID NOT MARRY. Just because certain men CHOSE, were DIRECTED by their wife, or TRICKED into having more than one wife doesn't mean it's something YHWH approves nor does His WORD (the Scriptures) promote it.

Scripture doesn't promote profanity..but it's in there.
Scripture doesn't promote putting hits out on people..but it's in there.
Scripture doesn't promote those traditions of man that contradict YAH's Word..but that's in there.
Scripture doesn't promote whoredom..but it's in there.

JUST LIKE POLYGNY (keep in mind this is about POLYGNY, not polygamy), IS IN THERE and not promoted by YHWH. It's done by man from his own choice, and is regulated in the EVENT it is done for the protection of the women and children.

Like I said, Polygny (and polygamy for that matter of any kind) is within the flesh and I am not going to change what I said for you or anyone else that cannot at least give one example of YHWH's Word saying to engage in it or even Scripture that LOOKS like it's a good thing for a lifestyle. And you haven't done that just like every other polygynist or polygnist supporter I have spoken with hasn't be able to produce when I have asked directly.

YHWH created Adam, then his HELPER (singular) EVE. He didn't create Eve, Lilth, Sally, Meg, Jeannie, and Carol etc to be with Adam, just Eve. Nothing has been presented that prove that's incorrect or needed an alteration.

Now what I stated and believe can be accepted and rejected..makes me no nevermind. Others have a right to believe and do whatever they want. I'm all for that.. people's rights. I say knock yourself out with your rights..just remember there are consequences for every "right" exercised.

You go on mentioning emotion...but check this out:

NEWSFLASH: Polygamy itself is based on emotion FOR PEOPLE THAT ENGAGE IN IT.

You mention "emotion" but why don't you have that conversation with those that have a problem with containing their emotion like polygamists...Why are polygamists emotional ? Because they are following their emotions to have wondering eyes for someone OTHER than their current spouse.

Personally, we over here (my husband and I) choose to follow what YHWH PERFECTLY established BEFORE YOUR TIME and OUR TIME WITHOUT the input of man. Others can do what they want but we see and believe that Scripture promotes to be married as YHWH established between ONE MAN and ONE WOMAN in the beginning BEFORE man decided YHWH's establishment of one wife just wasn't good enough.


YHWH's plan was perfect in the beginning and it's STILL perfect today. Anything outside of what YHWH established is man's doing ON HIS OWN. Notice.. never in Scripture does YHWH say to ANY of his chosen leaders: "TAKE FOR YOURSELVES MORE THAN ONE WIFE". In fact, he makes a point to say not to do it to his leaders.. those that are to set an example for everyone else.

So it is what it is... let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

May YHWH guide your footsteps rightly according to HIS will,
M

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adelore

Posts: 309
Registered: Mar 2007

posted 05-31-2007 09:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for adelore     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It smiply amazes me how some Scripture can be used for Man/human race to twist and turn to their way of thinking. Yahweh has given us what is called "Free Will" this doesn't mean however that He condons what "We" as humans do.

Yes it's true a few men (not all men) back in the Old Testament had more than one wife. Does this mean Yahweh approved? Nope! Just because Yahweh didn't send down bolts of lighting and destroy these men and their wifes doesn't mean He approved of what they were doing. Keep reading the Scriptures you'll find Yahweh DIDN'T approve!

Throughout the History of the Bible people did "Bad things" or things that weren't approved by Yahweh. Yet this information is in there for us to learn by because Yahweh is a loving Father who shows us the Good things and the Bad things we shouldn't do (like the others before us did and some today too..) in His Word.

Yet being a Loving Father to us, He was patient with us to see if we would choose the "Right Way".

Since we as a human race didn't........along comes Yahusha.

After all the "Flood" didn't wake us up as a human race, the tower of Bable didn't do it and the many more examples of Yahwehs Word shows us ,man can be stuborn and set in his ways, no matter how many times Yahweh "Turns the light on".

There are books in the Bible (New Testament) that tell of the world today and what's to come. If one were to study it to the fullest, one can see Yahwehs Word shows Mankind, in general, is still missing "the boat" doing mankinds "own thing".

What does it take for mankind in general to see the Truth of Yahweh? We have one last "wake up call" since most of the History of the Bible has been fulfilled before Yahshua comes again.

May Yahweh Bless.....

[This message has been edited by adelore (edited 05-31-2007).]

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elbesssr

Posts: 584
Registered: Dec 2006

posted 05-31-2007 11:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for elbesssr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It smiply amazes me how some Scripture can be used for Man/human race to twist and turn to their way of thinking. Yahweh has given us what is called "Free Will" this doesn't mean however that He condons what "We" as humans do.


There is not ONE SINGLE SIN that man has committed in the Old or New that YHWH has not addressed specifically in His Word.

The idea that something is a SIN, and YHWH knows it, does NOT condone it, but yet says NOTHING about it, is false.

If anything is a sin, YHWH has surely addressed it in His word. You or I do not have the ability or the right to define what sin is, just like we cannot define what righteousness is.

So if "we humans" are doing something that YHWH thinks is sin, He surely would have told us. No one has given any Scriptural evidence at all that YHWH has spoken AGAINST having more than one wife.

In fact, in Leviticus He gives a LAW that legislates it. It talks about what a man must do if He has "two" wives. Now if YHWH had a problem with it, why have a "LAW" governing it? He would have just said, "Don't do it".

Someone wrote that having more than one wife is "based in emotion". So what? Monogamy is emotionless?

Getting married to just ONE woman is "based in emotion" too!!!

The point is , emotion or no emotion, Scripture does not condemn it. If it were sin, it would have.

Shalom,

Eric

[This message has been edited by elbesssr (edited 05-31-2007).]

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Missy

Posts: 2643
Registered: Aug 2005

posted 06-01-2007 12:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Missy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by elbesssr:

In fact, in Leviticus He gives a LAW that legislates it. It talks about what a man must do if He has "two" wives.



Already know you won't respond and frankly I prefer it that way,

BUT for the general public that reads here:

First of all Scripture DOES NOT legislate having more than one wife!

Legislate would mean YHWH promulgated (or "enacted") polygny. And we know he did no such a thing in Scripture. He set up ADAM AND EVE from the beginning. CLEARLY, that plan was PERFECTION and to say otherwise doubts YHWH, period. If YHWH wanted it any other way, he would have established it as such when he created the world, man and woman perfectly! Notice he didn't give Adam more than one wife.

What Scripture contains are REGULATIONS concerning polygny which protect women and children IF a man does have more than one wife.

THERE IS A DIFFERENCE and certain polygnists and their supporters like to twist that for the less studied to support their position, do not be duped.

quote:
Now if YHWH had a problem with it, why have a "LAW" governing it? He would have just said, "Don't do it".

Same way there was a law regulating divorce in the event it is done. (And Yes, I know all about YHWH and Israel.. and I certainly have an answer if one wants to bring that up).

Notice Yeshua let us know that it was MOSHE that allowed divorce because of the hardness of men's hearts, not because it was so from the beginning.

Mar 10:5 But Yeshua said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment.
Mar 10:6 "But from the beginning of creation, ELOHIM MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE.
Mar 10:7 "FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER,
Mar 10:8 AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh.
Mar 10:9 "What therefore ELOHIM has joined together, let no man separate."

HMM notice that: No longer TWO but ONE FLESH. No matter how you slice it.. you can't get two to turn into one flesh if you got 3, 4, 5, 6, and more wives hanging around waiting to get their piece of the pie so to speak.

Like it or not.. YHWH established one man to marry one woman for life from the beginning and MAN changed that ON HIS OWN.

I find this an interesting Scripture and appropriate:

Eph 4:17 So this I say, and affirm together with the Master, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind,
Eph 4:18 being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of ELOHIM because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;
Eph 4:19 and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness.

Hmmm.. because of the hardness of heart, they become callous and giving themselves over for sensuality to practice impurity with greediness... SOUND FAMILIAR ? HMMMMMMMMMMMM


It goes on to say:
Eph 4:20 But you did not learn Messiah in this way,
Eph 4:21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Yeshua,
Eph 4:22 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,
Eph 4:23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
Eph 4:24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of ELOHIM has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

In the likeness of ELOHIM is to have ONE WIFE! YHWH had one wife which is ISRAEL. And one can use the excuse.. well Israel is made up of MANY people.. and I will point out that yeah it is and it's got men in there as well.. and I don't think ANYONE is prepared to say YHWH supports homosexual marriage for himself or anyone else (at least I hope no is prepared to say such a thing).


Shalom,
Missy

[This message has been edited by Missy (edited 06-01-2007).]

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adelore

Posts: 309
Registered: Mar 2007

posted 06-01-2007 08:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for adelore     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Doesn't the Bible also say that a man who is to be an Elder or Decon (ya know what I mean) in the Church/Assembly should be a Man of ONE Wife. Now I know it's pretty safe to say that a man with several wives can't/shouldn't be based on that Scripture.

I guess if people want to pratice having more than one wife and no matter how much Scripture you do show them, if their heart is "Hard" then they'll do what they want and see what they want in Scripture. (Like I said before Twist and Turn it.)

Even Yahsuha asked the Women at the Well; Where is your husband? She replied she had no husand. He said you are right you've had many and the one you are with now is not your husband. He told her to go and Sin no more.

I know that bit doesn't really talk about having more than one wife, yet it does show a standard giving by Yahsuha. One Man and One Women.

I guess this topic could go round and round forever; Yet if we were to take just the Ten Commandments and live our lives by them do you think that the Ten Commandments Condone having more than ONE Wife? Maybe some do, I don't.

There are many things in the Bible that many today will twist and turn to suite Man/Humans. The Feasts, The Sabbath, Yahwehs Name and the list goes on. No matter how much Scripture you show them, the dictionary and plain History, they still don't/won't see the Truth. HaSatan has hardened their hearts. Man wants to do it his way, because this is how he wants to "read into" the Scriptures.

What can you do when man/humans want to be like that? Pray for them and keep Praying for them, then give it over to Yahweh.

May Yahweh Bless You All,

Adelore

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elbesssr

Posts: 584
Registered: Dec 2006

posted 06-01-2007 05:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for elbesssr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[QUOTE]Originally posted by adelore:
Doesn't the Bible also say that a man who is to be an Elder or Decon (ya know what I mean) in the Church/Assembly should be a Man of ONE Wife. Now I know it's pretty safe to say that a man with several wives can't/shouldn't be based on that Scripture.


Two things about this Scripture:

First, this is only concerning men who are "Deacons" or "Bishops", not every man.

Second, why would it be necessary to specify "one wife" if more than one was not allowed? In others words, there is no need to tell a "deacon" or "elder" or "bishop" to be the husband of "one wife". They would already KNOW how many wives they could have if only ONE were allowed, wouldn't they? Yes, they would.

The Scripture here tells ONLY those who desire to be "bishops" or "deacons" not to have more than one. Any other man is not restricted to this instruction.


I guess if people want to pratice having more than one wife and no matter how much Scripture you do show them, if their heart is "Hard" then they'll do what they want and see what they want in Scripture. (Like I said before Twist and Turn it.)

I would be delighted for you to show us some "straight" Scriptures that speak against Polygamy. No one else has.

Even Yahsuha asked the Women at the Well; Where is your husband? She replied she had no husand. He said you are right you've had many and the one you are with now is not your husband. He told her to go and Sin no more. I know that bit doesn't really talk about having more than one wife, yet it does show a standard giving by Yahsuha. One Man and One Women.

It might be helpful to study the Torah (which Y'shua followed and taught), because there you will see that the laws for men and women concerning marriage are different.

"One man, One woman" was not the message to the woman. She was only with "one man" at a time. Messiah's rebuke was about what she did that was against Torah.

I guess this topic could go round and round forever; Yet if we were to take just the Ten Commandments and live our lives by them do you think that the Ten Commandments Condone having more than ONE Wife? Maybe some do, I don't.

Do the Ten Commandments codemn it? No. If so, how?

There are many things in the Bible that many today will twist and turn to suite Man/Humans. The Feasts, The Sabbath, Yahwehs Name and the list goes on. No matter how much Scripture you show them, the dictionary and plain History, they still don't/won't see the Truth. HaSatan has hardened their hearts. Man wants to do it his way, because this is how he wants to "read into" the Scriptures.

My heart is open to correction. Please show any "Scripture", or "history" that proves Polygamy is against YHWH's law.

What can you do when man/humans want to be like that? Pray for them and keep Praying for them, then give it over to Yahweh.

Totally agreed. This is why I don't bother responding to everyone.

Yahweh Bless You,

Eric


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chuckbaldwin

Posts: 2753
Registered: Jan 2004

posted 06-01-2007 06:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chuckbaldwin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree with Eric & others. YHWH had 2 wives - Israel & Judah, and i would hope that the "monagamy only" folks wouldn't accuse Him of wrongdoing - see Jer.3...

8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
...
14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith YHWH; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

Just thought i'd throw in my 2 cts worth, along with actual Scriptures.

------------------
Chuck Baldwin

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EliYah

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posted 06-01-2007 06:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for EliYah     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Taken from http://www.eliyah.com/family/divorceremarriage.html

Polygamy

Polygamy is a marriage where one man is married to two or more women. Since polygamy is not forbidden anywhere in the Torah, the Messianic promises were made to a polygamist (King David) who was called a man after Yahweh's own heart, and indeed even the House of Israel was built on a polygamous family (Jacob), it is worthwhile to examine this topic in light of Yahushua's statements. It seems that Yahushua's statements would have some bearing on whether polygamy is something Yahweh permits. Consider:

Matthew 19:9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for "porneia", and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery."
Matthew 5:32 "But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except
'porneia' causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.

Mark 10:11-12 So He said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her. 12 "And if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery."

Yahushua's statements certainly do have a bearing on polygamist marriages. At first glance it might even appear that Yahushua is condemning polygamy outright. The reason divorce and remarriage is considered to be adultery against the first wife is based on the fact that Yahweh is still honoring the first marriage. But since it is not a sin for a man to have more than one wife, why would a man who divorces his first wife and marries another be committing adultery against her? Indeed, if Yahweh didn't honor the divorce and considers the marriage with his first wife to still be a marriage, why is it adultery and not just "polygamy?" Considering the weightiness of what Yahushua is saying here, this is a very important question. It is a very serious thing to be in a marriage that Yahweh calls, "Adultery!"
Let's examine a scripture in the Torah that will help to shed light on this question.
Leviticus 18:18 'Nor shall you take a woman as a rival to her sister, to uncover her nakedness while the other is alive.

This scripture is speaking of the sin of taking two sisters in marriage. This scripture is not condemning a man from taking two spiritual sisters in marriage, it is forbidding a man from taking two blood related sisters in marriage. Why is Yahweh forbidding marriage between two blood sisters? Notice that Yahweh says you shall not take a woman "as a rival" to her sister. The word translated "rival" (#6887 "tsarar" ;) means "affliction" or "distress" by "binding together." In light of the fact that two blood sisters married to the same man are more apt to have jealousies and strife between one another, this precept helped to prevent the holy institution of marriage from being used as something that creates affliction, distress or dissension rather than peace, love and unity. Sowing discord is something that Yahweh clearly hates and considers to be an abomination:
Proverbs 6:16-19 These six things Yahweh hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him: 17 A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil, 19 A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren.

Strife and discord are a work of the flesh, not a fruit of the Spirit. Those who sow discord between two believers are practicing something Yahweh "hates" and considers to be "an abomination." This kind of discord is quite evident when we recall the jealousies and fighting that took place between Leah and Rachel. But in the case of Jacob marrying Leah and Rachel (two sisters), we should remember that Jacob was defrauded by Laban. Probably out of mercy for Leah (a woman he didn't want to marry) and to avoid strife between him and Laban, he went along with it. I don't believe Jacob violated the Torah principle because he did not take Rachel "as a rival to her sister" Leah, he was tricked into it by Rachel's father, Laban.
Yahweh knows the potential for rivalry and strife will create a very unhappy home for children of Yahweh, thereby hindering them from being the seed of Elohim that Yahweh desires. The Hebrew word translated "rival" in Leviticus 18:18 is also used here:
1 Samuel 1:4-8 And whenever the time came for Elkanah to make an offering, he would give portions to Peninnah his wife and to all her sons and daughters. 5 But to Hannah he would give a double portion, for he loved Hannah, although Yahweh had closed her womb. 6 And her rival also provoked her severely, to make her miserable, because Yahweh had closed her womb. 7 So it was, year by year, when she went up to the house of Yahweh, that she provoked her; therefore she wept and did not eat. 8 Then Elkanah her husband said to her, "Hannah, why do you weep? Why do you not eat? And why is your heart grieved? Am I not better to you than ten sons?"

Nothing her husband said or did could comfort Hannah from the oppression she felt from her "rival." There is no indication they were even blood sisters but the sadness in such a home can be just as great.
When Jacob and his family fled from Laban, Laban caught back up with Jacob and said:

Genesis 31:50 "If you afflict my daughters, or if you take other wives besides my daughters, although no man is with us -- see, Elohim is witness between you and me!"

So even Laban recognized that polygamy can cause problems between two unrelated women. He considered any decision by Jacob to add another wife to his family to be a an affliction to his daughters. In fact, there are no examples in scripture of any righteous man marrying a second wife against the will of his first wife. So important was this, that Abraham was ready to give his inheritance to Eliezer of Damascus rather than marry a second wife:
Genesis 15:2-3 But Abram said, "Master Yahweh, what will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?" 3 Then Abram said, "Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!"

Remember, the name "Abram" means "Father of many." When Sarah was barren, why didn't Abraham just pick up a second wife rather than walk around in shame with a name like "Father of many" and force himself to give his inheritance to Eliezer of Damascus? It was not until Sarah wanted to give Abraham her handmaid that Abraham did anything. We know that even though Sarah permitted it, there was strife in the household anyway. Now imagine if he took a second wife against Sarah's will. The rivalry would have been even greater and Abraham would have been afflicting Sarah.

Now remember that Leviticus 18:18 forbids a man from taking a woman as a rival to her sister. The spirit behind what is spoken is to avoid afflicting your wife and creating strife in the household between two people who should be loving one another. So whether a person takes a woman "as a rival" to her blood sister or he takes a woman against the will of his first wife, it really is no different. Such a man is not loving his first wife, he is afflicting her. He is laying down a stumbling block before her feet that will sow discord between two sisters in Yahweh who should be loving one another. Sowing discord is something "Yahweh hates" and it is "an abomination to Him." Those who create temptation for others and cause believers to stumble are called "tares" among the wheat:

Matthew 13:40-42 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 "The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 "and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

The word translated "offend" is #4625 skandalon which means to lay a snare or give occasion for another person to fall. This same word was used when Yahushua rebuked Kepha/Peter for tempting him to sin:
Matthew 16:21-23 From that time Yahushua began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day. 22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "Far be it from You, Master; this shall not happen to You!" 23 But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of Elohim, but the things of men."

Yahushua called Kepha "satan" for even unknowingly trying to cause him to stumble. Satan was using Kepha to subtly tempt Yahushua to think He was too great to have to go through these things. Satan is the one that wants to stir up trouble and create temptation for believers in Yahweh. A man taking on a second wife against his first wife's will is not only creating temptation and strife between sisters in Yahweh, it is afflicting his wife, the very one he is supposed to be loving as Yahushua loved the assembly!
1 Peter 3:7 Husbands, likewise, dwell with them with understanding, giving honor to the wife, as to the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life, that your prayers may not be hindered.

A husband is supposed to be loving and guiding his wife righteousness. Marrying a second wife against her will is hating her and guiding her to unrighteousness by afflicting her and sowing discord between her and another sister in Yahweh. With this in mind, it should be no surprise why Yahushua said divorce and remarriage for unrighteous reasons is not "polygamy"---it is "Adultery!"

Matthew 5:32 "But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except 'porneia' causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.

So strong is Yahweh against this, that He actually blames the husband for causing his wife to commit adultery when she remarries! All through scripture, Yahweh hated it when a person caused affliction to the disadvantaged. Consider:
Exodus 22:22-24 You shall not afflict any widow or fatherless child. 23 "If you afflict them in any way, and they cry at all to Me, I will surely hear their cry; 24 "and My wrath will become hot, and I will kill you with the sword; your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless.

All throughout scripture, Yahweh talks again and again about the fatherless and the widow. He hated it when they were afflicted and/or their needs were ignored by Yahweh's people. If a man were to divorce his believing wife and marry another, Yahweh classifies such an affliction to be the sin of adultery. So Yahweh has a message to all the women of Yahweh around the world who fear that their husband is wanting a second wife: He cares about you!

Righteous Job, a man who had one wife, refused to even consider marrying a second wife to the point of making a covenant with his eyes so that he would not "look upon a young woman" (Heb. #1330 "Bethulah" meaning "virgin" ;)


Job 31:1-4 I have made a covenant with my eyes; Why then should I look upon ayoung woman? 2 For what is the allotment of Elohim from above, And the inheritance of the Almighty from on high? 3 Is it not destruction for the wicked, And disaster for the workers of iniquity? 4 Does He not see my ways, And count all my steps?

Why would Job keep his eyes from looking at virgins if he could take a second wife any old time? She must not have wanted that and he knew how serious a matter it was to sin against his wife.
Understanding the importance of this also prevents the loophole of a man thinking he can just marry another woman before divorcing his current wife and he would not be guilty of adultery. It doesn't matter if he marries another and then divorces his first wife, the same situation is present and it is still adultery. I don't see anyone standing before Yahweh with such a loophole and convincing Him that it was okay. At issue here is 'wife replacement' and afflicting the one you are supposed to be loving as Yahushua loved the assembly. If a man divorces his wife and she marries another man, her first husband is the one causing her to commit adultery (Mat 5:32). Of course, this doesn't mean his first wife is guiltless for marrying another man but woe to the one by whom offense
comes!

Luke 17:1 Then He said to the disciples, "It is impossible that no offenses should come, but woe to him through whom they do come!

This is even more evidence that divorce is never permitted between believers. What Elohim has joined together, let not man separate.

Now if a man and his wife chose to allow a second wife into the marriage, he would be forbidden from being an attendant (deacon) or overseer/elder (bishop).
Titus 1:5 For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you -- 6 if a man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of dissipation or insubordination. 7 For a bishop must be blameless, as a steward of Elohim, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money,
1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1 Timothy 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

The fact that Paul mentions this requirement shows that some believers were indeed practicing polygamy. Of course, the Torah principle behind this is where Yahweh did not permit kings to multiply wives:
Deuteronomy 17:17 Neither shall he multiply wives for himself, lest his heart turn away; nor shall he greatly multiply silver and gold for himself.

Yahweh knew well that the power and wealth of a king would increase the potential for excessive polygamy and riches. Polygamy in particular can draw a man's heart away from Yahweh, as well as turn a king's heart away from his responsibilities as king.
1 Corinthians 7:33 But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.

King Solomon is certainly an example of that. When he did turn away from Yahweh, he led all of Israel away also. We don't need any chances of that occurring in the assembly. Therefore, it isn't hard to see why leaders in the assembly should be the husband of one wife.

As far as polygamy being practiced today, we should remember that in many countries (like the United States) it is against the law. For this reason we should consider:

1 Peter 2:13-17 Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Master's sake, whether to the king as supreme, 14 or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good. 15 For this is the will of Elohim, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men -- 16 as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of Elohim. 17 Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear Elohim. Honor the king.

Any commandment of man which does not violate a commandment of Yahweh should be followed for the sake of putting to silence those who would accuse us and attempt to cast us in a bad light. Choosing to have only one wife does not violate any command in the Torah.

Also, most marriages today include a covenant between a man and woman which contain words like "keep thee only unto her for as long as you both shall live." If your marriage covenant included such words, you would not be able to marry a second wife and keep your covenant at the same time.

Also, if we consider Yahushua's admonition to get back to the way it was in the beginning, it wouldn't be too difficult to see why many interpret them as outright forbidding polygamy. Yahushua wants us to get back to the way things were when there was one man, one woman producing a seed of Elohim. We should remember that there is about a 50/50 chance of a child being born a boy or a girl. For this reason, there is usually an equal number of men and women in society. In the United States, 49.12% of the population is male and 50.88% of the population is female (2002 data). If we lived in a society where there were significantly more women than men, I could see some legitimacy for a man having more than one wife rather than multitudes of women being sentenced to a life of celibacy. This was often the case in ancient times because of so many men dying in various wars. But if we live in a society where the number of men are nearly the same as the number of women, a man marrying one wife could potentially prevent another man from producing a seed of Elohim. It seems that these things should be taken into consideration as well. I do realize that Yahushua was not outright condemning polygamy in Matthew 19 and related verses so I would stop short of calling it a sin either way. The important thing is that a man does not afflict his first wife by taking on a second wife against her will.

[This message has been edited by EliYah (edited 06-01-2007).]

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elbesssr

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posted 06-02-2007 02:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for elbesssr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Shalom,

While I certainly agree that those who are YHWH's people should not provoke strife and discord toward another, there is a place and a time for rebuke and obedience.

In the process of Scriptural interpretation, context is "King". We must always be careful as teachers to use the Scriptures in their proper context. Not to do so, usually creates an error in doctrine.

There is never any precedent set in Scripture for a man to have "permission" to take another wife. It is against the law, however, for a man to marry two sisters that are both still alive:

A man may not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her sister while the woman is still living (Leviticus 18:18).

Again, if we stick to the Scriptures that pertain to sex, marriage, divorce, etc.. and not take Scriptures that are not intended for that context, we can get an accurate picture of YHWH's view on the subject. For example:

One could say that a man who marries another wife without the 1st wife's permission is causing the 1st wife "offense". Then to support that, use Scriptures regarding "offense" that are not written in the context of marriage.

Well, aren't believers supposed to refrain from offense, even in marriage? The answer is absolutely, yes. But believers are also supposed to "live peacably with all men".
Believers should also "love one another"
Believers should also "bear one another's burdens"

I could go on but the point is, if two women married to the same man don't "get along", is it the man's fault for marrying one without permission OR do these women have a responsibility to "walk in love" as believers?

Just because Sarai and Hagar couldn't get along, doesn't mean their behavior establishes a Scriptural principle. They should have behaved better, and it was not Abrams fault that they didn't. Besides he did get permission, and they still behaved badly.

A man who marries another woman is not "creating strife". Two adult women have the abilty AND responsibility to conduct themselves with love. To blame the man for strife in that situation is like blaming parents for having another child without the first child's permission because two siblings don't get along.

In Gen 31, Laban said, "If you afflict my daughters OR if you take other wives beside my daughters..."

The "affliction" was not the taking of other wives, these were two separate things. In context, it is more likely that Laban wanted to ensure that his inheritance stayed in his blood-line, and would not go to the children of other women besides his daughters, which is why he attempted to make this vow.

As we know, Jacob did NOT stick to this promise, had two other wives besides the sisters, giving us the twelve tribes. Are we to believe that "four" of the twelve tribes of YHWH's chosen nation are the descendents of "adultry"? Certainly not.

In addition, Y'shua has not altered the Torah view of adultry, marriage and divorce when viewed in proper context. Consider the following:

It is important for us to understand the correct meaning behind a word in Scripture when we see it or use it, so we have the correct interpretation behind what is being said, regardless of how our culture puts a "spin" on it. To accomplish this, we must first establish how we are going to arrive at a definition. We can either look to our English dictionaries and modern definitions to define words, or we can look to the Scriptures.

However, the Scripture is not a dictionary, and we should not expect it to define a word in the same manner as a dictionary would. So in defining terms like adultery, fornication, marriage or divorce, those who seek the truth must study and compare various passages of Scripture. Only then will we be able to ensure an accurate, Scriptural definition.

Adultery

When studying these issues, we have to first unlearn what the world has taught us and learn to think Scripturally. In today's politically-correct climate, to be gender-specific is almost considered leprous, but the Scriptures are ALWAYS gender specific when dealing with topics of sex, marriage, divorce, remarriage, adultery, and the like. In general, the rules concerning sexual conduct and marital infidelity within the Torah were not applied to men like they were to women. Most believers are entirely ignorant as to what the Scriptures actually say on these matters, and as a result, they are confused regarding adultery and fornication. Some are not sure what the terms mean. Others think they know what the terms mean, but are not sure of Elohim's position on the subject.

Adultery is defined by the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language as "voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a partner other than the lawful husband or wife". However, the Scriptural definition of adultery is the breach of a marriage contract, and occurred when a man (married or unmarried) had sexual intercourse with a woman who was either married or betrothed to another man. The word "adultery" was also used by Elohim to show Yisra’el's spiritual unfaithfulness to Him. Thus, there is both a physical side and a spiritual side to adultery, although for the purposes of this article, we will be focused primarily on the physical side of adultery (i.e., actual sexual intercourse between a man and a woman).

As amazing as it may seem, there is no definition of adultery in the Messianic Scriptures (New Testament) and we must go to the Tanak (Old Testament) for that. In the Tanak, the Hebrew word for adultery is "na'aph" (Strong's #5003), and literally means "woman that breaks wedlock". Because male-female roles are different in a Scriptural marriage relationship, what constitutes adultery for a woman is not the same as for a man.

'And a man who commits adultery with the wife of another man, who commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor: the adulterer and the adulteress shall certainly be put to death.' (Leviticus 20:10, The Scriptures)

"When a man is found lying with a woman married to a husband, then both of them shall die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman. Thus you shall purge the evil from Yisra'el. When a girl who is a maiden is engaged to a husband, and a man finds her in the city and lies with her, then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and shall stone them to death with stones, the girl because she did not cry out in the city, and the man because he has humbled his neighbor's wife. Thus you shall purge the evil from your midst." (Deuteronomy 22:22-24, The Scriptures)

These two passages comprehensively define what adultery is. A married or unmarried man commits adultery if he has sexual intercourse with another man's wife (as King David did with Bathsheba, wife of Uriyah) and the woman also becomes an adulteress. This is true whether the woman is fully married (having consummated the relationship) or is betrothed (having entered marriage vows in the presence of witnesses without the relationship having been consummated). This is the only definition of Adultery in the Scriptures.

Marriage and Divorce

The marriage relationship is entered into when a man and a woman commit themselves to each other, before Elohim, as husband and wife, and then consummate that commitment with the sexual union. The Scriptures offer NO precepts or guidelines for ceremonies. There is NO command or precept in the Scriptures that says that some man ("clergy") is to "marry" the couple. No man can marry the couple because it is Elohim who created and ordains the institution, and He gives no command in the Scriptures where He calls for a man to serve as the agent of approving the marriage. The couple is to be married before Elohim first and foremost.

Marriage is defined solely by Elohim, and as such, government-given "marriage licenses" really have no binding authority whatsoever on the actual and true definition of marriage. Likewise, government-based "divorces", or simply the voiding of government-given "marriage licenses", also have no authority on the legitimacy of Scriptural marriages. Whatever the government chooses to define has no meaning or bearing in terms of whether Scriptural marriages are "existing" or "voided".

Marriage was ordained and blessed by Elohim from the beginning. He even used it as a model for His own special relationship with His people Yisra’el; He was married to them, and they to Him. Elohim's design was for man to "cleave to his wife". Divorce, in contrast, is often tragic and has lasting consequences on generations to come, at least when children are involved. In most instances, it leaves deep, often permanent scars on one or both divorcees.

Nevertheless, divorce, in and of itself, is NOT sinful, so long as it is also lawful. Scriptural divorce is actually a punishment; a necessary consequence of marital unfaithfulness on the part of the woman. Elohim permitted divorce under only one condition. According to the Torah, a man who wanted to divorce his wife had to "write her a certificate of divorce" and then "send her away" or "put her away". However, he was only allowed to do this under a very unique circumstance.

"When a man takes a wife and shall marry her, then it shall be, if she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found a matter of uncovered(ness) in her, and he shall write her a certificate of divorce, and put it in her hand, and send her out of his house" (Deuteronomy 24:1, The Scriptures)

In this passage, we are told that a husband may divorce his wife if she "finds no favor in his eyes" because he finds "a matter of uncovered(ness) in her". The Hebrew word translated as "uncovered(ness)" is 'ervah (Strong's #6172), which means "nudity, literally or figuratively (disgrace, blemish); nakedness, shame, unclean (ness)". It is derived from the Hebrew root 'arah, which means "to make bare; to empty; discover, make naked, uncover". This is the very same word translated throughout Leviticus 18 as "nakedness". Judging by the Hebrew dictionary definitions, it seems that this Scriptural passage refers to discovering or exposing sexual impurity, although some had later expanded the meaning of impurity to include virtually anything a man might find displeasing about his wife.

About a century before Messiah, there were two leading parties of rabbis (or teachers): the "Shammaites" and the "Hillelites". These two groups would meet on a regular basis to debate various matters of Law at great length, including legal questions regarding the proper grounds for divorce. According to the Mishnah, which is the most ancient part of the Jewish Talmud, Shammai and his followers argued that a man may not divorce his wife unless he finds "a matter of uncovered(ness)" in her, per Deuteronomy 24:1. The party of Hillel, on the other hand, insisted that the words "matter" and "uncovered(ness)" be treated separately in order to allow a divorce for either something "uncovered" or for any "matter". In fact, they allowed a man to divorce his wife for almost any reason, even if she was a poor cook or if someone else was prettier. This debate is actually recorded in the Mishnah:

"Beth Shammai (the Party of Shammai) say a man should not divorce his wife unless he has found her guilty of some unseemly conduct, as it says, "Because he hath found some unseemly thing in her." Beth Hillel (the Party of Hillel) say even if she has merely spoilt his food, since it says, "Because he hath found some unseemly thing in her." (Mishnah Gittin 90a)

During the time of Yahushua, the differences between these two schools of thought were still being hotly debated. Hillel and his followers made great allowances for divorce, while Shammai and his followers said that divorce was limited to some sort of sexual immorality.

If the word "uncovered(ness)" was a reference to adultery, as in Deuteronomy 22:13-24, then the Torah demanded the death penalty. But in context, the word "uncovered(ness)" in this passage seems to imply prior whoring or fornication on the part of the wife. This would most likely occur if the husband discovers her "lack of virginity" on their wedding night, and as a result, "she finds no favor in his eyes". Yahushua clarified this matter further in Matthew chapters 5 and 19, when He declared the proper and correct interpretation for this disputed passage.

"And it has been said, 'Whoever puts away his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.' But I say to you that whoever puts away his wife, except for the matter of whoring, makes her commit adultery. And whoever marries a woman who has been put away commits adultery." (Matthew 5:31-32, The Scriptures)

"And I say to you, whoever puts away his wife, except on the grounds of whoring, and marries another, commits adultery. And whoever marries her who has been put away commits adultery." (Matthew 19:9, The Scriptures)

Although many believers think that Yahushua changed the law on divorce under the New Covenant, these passages demonstrate otherwise. The only valid cause of a man divorcing his wife is if she committed whoring, or sexual immorality. It was for this very same reason that Yoseph had thought to divorce Miriam, when she was found to be pregnant. He understandably thought she had committed whoring before they came together in sexual union.

These verses do NOT address a woman divorcing her husband because of sexual immorality. In fact, Scripture does not give a woman permission to divorce her husband under any circumstances. Even under the Torah, it was the men who were permitted to divorce their wives, not the women. Some might think that a woman has a right to divorce her husband if he is sexually immoral, but Scriptures say no such thing anywhere.

The Greek word translated as "whoring" in both Matthew 5:32 and Matthew 19:9 is porneia, which we already know means any unlawful sexual relations. It would have been absurd for Yahushua to say "except in the case of adultery", since it was already understood that if the wife had committed adultery, the penalty under the Torah wasn't divorce, but death by stoning. Porneia, therefore, must be understood here in a much wider sense than that of simple adultery.

Divorce and Remarriage

In marriage, women are not viewed in the same way as men. Under the Torah, if a married or unmarried man had sex with a virgin who was not betrothed, he would simply have to marry her, or at least pay the bride price (Exodus 22:16-17). This act is never called adultery, even though he had sex with another woman. If a married woman had sex with any man other than her husband and she was discovered, she would be killed, along with the man (Leviticus 20:10).

Scripture calls it adultery when a married woman has sex with a man other than her husband, whether the other man is married or not. For the married man, it is only viewed as adultery if he has sex with a married or betrothed woman (Deuteronomy 22:22-24). If he had sex with a virgin who was not betrothed, this is NOT called adultery (Deuteronomy 22:28-29). It is evident, in the Torah, that marriage for the woman is not exactly the same as marriage for the man.

For the married woman has been bound by Torah to the living husband, but if the husband dies, she is released from the Torah concerning her husband. So then, while her husband lives, she shall be called an adulteress if she becomes another man's. But if her husband dies, she is free from that part of the Torah, so that she is not an adulteress, having become another man's. (Romans 7:2-3, The Scriptures)

The Scriptures never say this of the husband with regards to his wife because he may acquire another wife. But here we have a case in which a woman is married to two men. There is no lawful divorce in this passage. It is simply the case of a woman having two husbands. This is called polyandry and it is clearly depicted as evil, because such a woman would rightly be called an adulteress. No such teaching is given for the man. On the contrary, a man could have two (or more) wives, yet he would not be committing adultery. Polygamy is never condemned in Scripture.

In matters of divorce and remarriage, it is Paul's pattern of writing in 1 Corinthians 7 to apply something to both the wife and the husband if it indeed applies to both. Both a wife and a husband are admonished not to divorce (1 Corinthians 7:10-11). Both the husband and the wife are commanded not to divorce in the case that they are married to an unbeliever (vs. 12-16). But only the wife is told that she cannot be joined to another as long as her husband lives (vs. 11 and 39).

And to the married I command, not I, but the Master: A wife should not separate from a husband. But if she is indeed separated, let her remain unmarried or be restored to favor with her husband, and let a husband not send away a wife. (1 Corinthians 7:10-11, The Scriptures)

A wife is bound by the Torah as long as her husband lives, and if her husband dies, she is free to be married to whom she desires, only in the Master. (1 Corinthians 7:39, The Scriptures)

The reason the man is not mentioned by Paul is because, according to the Torah, a man could marry another woman while his first wife was still alive and not be guilty of adultery. Therefore, the Scriptural position on remarriage is as follows: If her husband unjustly divorces a woman or if she divorces her husband, she may not remarry another because she is bound to the first as long as he lives. If his wife divorces a man, he may remarry another, but he must pray for his first wife's return, and accept her back as his wife if she does return (1 Corinthians 7:11). If a man divorces his wife unjustly, he may not remarry another, as he would then have committed "adultery" against his first wife.

Law of the Land

One of the final accusations leveled against polygamous marriage is that it is illegal to have more than one wife in Western countries, as well as many Eastern ones. Since we are to obey the law of the land, Polygamy should not be practiced.

Let every being be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from Elohim, and the authorities that exist are appointed by Elohim. (Romans 13:1, The Scriptures)

Be subject to every institution of man because of the Master..." (1 Peter 2:13a, The Scriptures)

First of all, we need to keep in mind that there are believers throughout the world living in countries where Polygamy is recognized as a legitimate form of marriage. Scripture does not condemn the man for having more than one wife, and neither should we.

However, the argument that believers are bound to every civil law is flawed. Preaching the Gospel of Messiah is illegal in some countries too. It is illegal for believers to assemble to worship in them, or build churches, or hold baptismal services. It is illegal in some countries to convert a Muslim. There are many laws in many countries that would make preaching, let alone living the Gospel, impossible without breaking the law.

We are to be subject to our higher powers, but only to a point. The first believers were banned by the Talmudic Jewish leaders of the day from preaching the Gospel of Messiah, but they broke these rules nonetheless. For their defiance, they were dragged into religious courts (the Jewish equivalent of the Catholic Inquisition), charged with rebellion against the local authorities, beaten, and sometimes murdered. What was the response of these disciples?

And Kepha and the other emissaries answering, said, "We have to obey Elohim rather than men". (Acts 5:29, The Scriptures)

Let's cut to the chase here. We should not obey man's law when it conflicts with Elohim's law. After all, there are things that belong to Elohim and not to the government. Our souls belong to Him, for one. If we are to literally obey every law of man, then we will have to take the mark of the Beast. Another example might be that the government could force ministers to marry gay and lesbian couples, or force obstetricians to give abortions on demand. We need to remember that Elohim's law is the highest law. Marriages are not something that should be given to the government.

Render therefore to all what is due to them: tax to whom tax is due, toll to whom toll, fear to whom fear, respect to whom respect. (Romans 13:7, The Scriptures)

What Paul is saying here is that while we have certain obligations to the government, they are not absolute. Our minds, hearts and spirits belong to Elohim and not to the state. It is our choice to whom we give these things. Even if we despise and hate a government because it is wicked, we are nevertheless to continue to pay taxes and levies (even if we believe they are unrighteous) and to show respect for the offices of state (even if we believe the officers are evil). In short, we are to acknowledge the need for law and order of a secular type, even if it is poor or plain evil. A communist or fascist government is better than no government at all where anarchy prevails.

We are entering a time where government is not only becoming more and more evil, but all governments are rapidly heading towards merging into a single World Government, which the Scriptures say will be ruled by the "Beast" who will persecute believers to death. If the governments order us to deny the Law of Elohim, we are under absolutely no obligation to obey them. The Roman Empire tried to force the first believers to worship the Roman Elohims in addition to their own and they rightly refused and paid with their lives.

We are not commanded to unconditionally obey every statute of government, because we should obey Elohim before men. Polygamy may be 'illegal' in most countries, but so what? Governments do not have the right to legislate marriage in the first place.

Therefore, what Elohim has joined together, let man not separate." (Matthew 19:6, The Scriptures)

Marriages have been happening since Adam and Chavvah, way before governments came about. As we see in Genesis 24:67, Yitzak simply took Rebekah into a tent and became one with her, and they were married. Marriages are between the husband, the wife and Elohim, NOT the husband, the wife, Elohim and the government. A marriage is made when a man takes a woman and becomes one with her, physically and spiritually.

Taking that into account, believers do not have to break the law in the first place. Bigamy is when a person is 'legally' married to more than one spouse. It is the act of having government-recognized existing marriages with more than one living spouse at the same time. Polygamists do not need to 'legally' marry their wives in the government's eyes, but rather marry them in Elohim's eyes. A person does not need the state's license or permission to marry. Why should we need the state's permission to participate in something that Elohim instituted? A license by definition "confers a right" to do something. The state cannot grant the right to marry, because that right comes from Elohim alone.

Some believers have actually said, "If someone is married without a marriage license, then they aren't really married." Given the fact that states are beginning to legalize same-sex marriages, we need to reconsider our position. If a man and a man marry with a state marriage license, and a man and woman marry without a state marriage license, who is really married? This contention that people are not really married unless they obtain a marriage license reveals just how Statistic we are in our thinking. We need to start thinking Scripturally. If fellow believers say that such a person is living in fornication or adultery, you can politely tell them that they do not know their Scriptures and educate them as to the truth.


[This message has been edited by elbesssr (edited 06-02-2007).]

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Missy

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posted 06-02-2007 07:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Missy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by chuckbaldwin:
YHWH had 2 wives - Israel & Judah, and i would hope that the "monagamy only" folks wouldn't accuse Him of wrongdoing - see Jer.3...

Not directed at you Chuck.. you believe whatever you want and I wish to make no contention with you about your beliefs. I am just using the line to make a point. You will not be mentioned further.

FOR THOSE LURKERS: ESPECIALLY UNMARRIED WOMEN THAT WANT TO GET MARRIED ONE DAY:

Scripture doesn't say YHWH had or has 2 wives. He has one.... ISRAEL. Judah is part of Israel. The Israelites are 12 tribes which include Judah that make up ALL of ISRAEL.

Tribal Divisions:
Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Manasseh, Ephraim, and Benjamin. In parts of the Bible, Ephraim and Manasseh are treated as together constituting the House of Joseph, while the Levi have a special religious role and had only scattered cities as territory; whence traditionally either Ephraim and Manasseh were counted as one tribe, or Levi wasn't counted, so that together the tribes were the Twelve Tribes of Israel.

Jeremiah 3 doesn't say YHWH had 2 wives. It simply divides the tribes by name just like every other tribe had a name. But the entire people are Israelites. Jeremiah 3 is metaphorical anyway, not literal. Considering Israel contains men as well, and YHWH is not literally married to men and women. Think spiritually.

In Jeremiah it describes Israel and Judah as unfaithful sisters. Clearly they would be BLOOD sisters coming from the same father.

Leviticus 18:18 - Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex her, to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life time. (KJV)

Leviticus 18:18'You shall not marry a woman in addition to her sister as a rival while she is alive, to uncover her nakedness. (NASB)

Leviticus 18:18 You must not marry a woman in addition to her sister, to be a rival to her, having sexual relations with the second sister when the first one is alive. (AMP)

So having JUST READ THE TORAH (not man's invention of the truth by the way) would YHWH have 2 wives or one according to HIS TORAH ? I'll give you a few minutes.. RIGHT.. ONE WIFE! So clearly you have to look at Jer. 3 with spiritual eyes in a metaphorical sense.

So please women don't fall for that line that YHWH had two wives. Because if we use that faulty logic technically it would mean YHWH had 12 wives, not 2 since there are 12 tribes, not 2. And can you imagine the choas in a house with 12 wives and ONE MAN... it would be like throwing raw meat into a lion's den where they haven't eaten in 2 weeks!

To unmarried women that wish to get married one day: YOU ARE WORTH having a husband that's faithful to YOU and only YOU. You don't need to be subjected to be in another room in the house while your spouse is in another room doing "OTHER" (who's telling what!) things with his OTHER woman. And what if 2 women are not enough for him...what if he wants 12 wives ?

What kind of message does that send to your kids ? Think about it. Dad's in one room with his OTHER woman and mom's out here. Especially think about the message this sends to your daughters.. basically that she's not good enough to have her OWN husband.

YHWH had one wife (ALL OF ISRAEL)... your husband isn't better than YHWH. He should have ONE wife as well.

Would the Shema say, "Hear O' Israel YHWH is our ELOHIM, YHWH is ONE." if YHWH had more than one wife (which is collective Israel) ?

What ? Is the Shema only written for Israel and not ALL the tribes and those that join the commonwealth of Israel ?

What ? Were some of the things written in Torah only for 10 tribes ?

If so, why are you (and the majority of us here are what's labeled as Gentiles) keeping Torah ? Why bother, if certain things only pertain to Israel ? If that's right then why were ALL the tribes of Israel expected to keep Torah (including Judah and Levi) which one could say is the "marriage" covenant (contract) between YHWH and his bride Israel ? Why wouldn't "Israel" (10 tribes) have to be subjected to keeping it ? And why do YOU keep it ?

Please also keep in mind that there is NO SCRIPTURE that show YHWH approved of it (polygny) nor is there any SCRIPTURE that shows a polygnist family where there wasn't a dysfunction in the home because of it. Think Sarah...and she's the one that TOLD Abram to be with Hagar.. how do you like that ? LOL!

Also notice that YHWH specifically says in his WORD that leaders which would include (Priests, Deacons, Elders, Rabbis (teachers), Overseers (Bishops), and Kings) are not to have more than ONE WIFE.

Now just why preytell would YHWH tell his leaders... those that are to set an example for everyone else NOT to have more than one wife and he's got 2 or 12 ?

DOESN'T ADD UP .... let it marinate in your mind.. STILL, IT DOESN'T ADD UP.


And lastly:

Malachi 2:14 "Yet you say, 'For what reason?' Because YAHWEH has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant.

NOTICE IT SAYS WIFE (NOT WIVES OF YOUR YOUTH). NOTICE COMPANION and NOT COMPANIONS! Marriage is a covenant between ONE MAN and ONE WOMAN and they equal ONE FLESH. Can't have that when bringing in more women.

Mal 2:15 "But not one has done so who has a remnant of the Spirit. And what did that one do while he was seeking a righteous offspring? Take heed then to your spirit, and let no one deal treacherously against the wife of your youth.

YHWH established ADAM AND EVE FROM THE BEGINNING, not ADAM and his harem of women.

It's not rocket science.


Shalom,
Missy

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Missy

Posts: 2643
Registered: Aug 2005

posted 06-02-2007 08:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Missy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by EliYah:
Polygamy is a marriage where one man is married to two or more women.

EliYah,

Actually, POLYGYNY is a marriage where one man is married to two or more women.

Polygamy is the practice of marriage to more than one spouse simultaneously. Either the woman OR the man can practice polygamy. A woman can have more than one spouse as well under this umbrella definition.

Definitions of Polygamy and Polygyny for record sake:

POLYGAMY from The Random House Unabridged Dictionary :

1. the practice or condition of having more than one spouse, esp. wife, at one time.

POLYGAMY from the American Heritage Dictionary :

1. The condition or practice of having more than one spouse at one time. Also called plural marriage.

POLYGYNY from The Random House Unabridged Dictionary :

1. the practice or condition of having more than one wife at one time.


POLYGYNY from the American Heritage Dictionary

1. The condition or practice of having more than one wife at one time.



POLYANDRY :

1. the practice or condition of having more than one husband at one time.

2. (among female animals) the habit or system of having two or more mates, either simultaneously or successively.

I am guessing polyandry was practiced by the woman at the well Yeshua spoke with and told her she had 5 husbands and the one she's with now isn't hers and to go and sin no more.


Shalom,
M

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EliYah

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posted 06-02-2007 10:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for EliYah     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Shalom Missy,

Thanks, I updated the study to clarify the form of polygamy discussed.

Shalom Elbessr,

I think we can agree that every Torah commandment has love as its aim. So when reading the Torah we should remember that love is the context of each commandment. Yahweh said it is not love to bind two blood sisters together due to the obvious rivalry and affliction that would ensue. So while it is true that a wife is to submit to her husband, it is also true that a husband is to love his wife. A husband loving his wife seems to be missing from many teachings on polygamy. It is not love for a man to marry a second wife against the will of his first, and to do so basically creates the same condition that Yahweh was trying to avoid when forbidding a man from marrying two blood sisters. I don't want to miss out on what the Torah is really all about. We should do unto others what we would want others to do to unto us.

Incidentally, I don't see where Jacob broke his covenant with Laban. Rachel and Leah both willingly gave their handmaids to Jacob (Gen 30:3,9). They became concubines (Gen 35:22). We see that he didn't take them against the will of Rachel & Leah.

I may or may not have time to continue replying in this thread. I just wanted to share this, as it may help to resolve some of the concerns expressed on both sides.

The favor of Yahushua be with you both,

EliYah

[This message has been edited by EliYah (edited 06-02-2007).]

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Stephen

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posted 06-02-2007 11:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Stephen     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by elbesssr:

The reason the man is not mentioned by Paul is because, according to the Torah, a man could marry another woman while his first wife was still alive and not be guilty of adultery. Therefore, the Scriptural position on remarriage is as follows: If her husband unjustly divorces a woman or if she divorces her husband, she may not remarry another because she is bound to the first as long as he lives. If his wife divorces a man, he may remarry another, but he must pray for his first wife's return, and accept her back as his wife if she does return (1 Corinthians 7:11). If a man divorces his wife unjustly, he may not remarry another, as he would then have committed "adultery" against his first wife.


Until now, I had been of the opinion that as a divorced man who was divorced by his Adulterous wife against his will, that I could scripturally remarry a divorced woman who had been divorced against her will by her "Adulterous" husband. After reading your post, which was very good, I have to agree with your conclusion, that although Yahweh has compassion on the misstreated, and innocent victoms, His Torah forbids a divorced woman from re-marrying as long as her "ex" husband lives. This is unfortunate for not only the divorced woman, but also for those divorced men like myself who might like to marry such a woman.


Stephen

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gmoore44

Posts: 245
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posted 06-02-2007 05:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for gmoore44     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by elbesssr:
Shalom,

While I certainly agree that those who are YHWH's people should not provoke strife and discord toward another, there is a place and a time for rebuke and obedience.

In the process of Scriptural interpretation, [b]context is "King". We must always be careful as teachers to use the Scriptures in their proper context. Not to do so, usually creates an error in doctrine.

. . .

However, the Scripture is not a dictionary, and we should not expect it to define a word in the same manner as a dictionary would. So in defining terms like adultery, fornication, marriage or divorce, those who seek the truth must study and compare various passages of Scripture. Only then will we be able to ensure an accurate, Scriptural definition.

Adultery

. . .

Adultery is defined by the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language as "voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a partner other than the lawful husband or wife". However, the Scriptural definition of adultery is the breach of a marriage contract, and occurred when a man (married or unmarried) had sexual intercourse with a woman who was either married or betrothed to another man. The word "adultery" was also used by Elohim to show Yisra’el's spiritual unfaithfulness to Him. Thus, there is both a physical side and a spiritual side to adultery, although for the purposes of this article, we will be focused primarily on the physical side of adultery (i.e., actual sexual intercourse between a man and a woman).

As amazing as it may seem, there is no definition of adultery in the Messianic Scriptures (New Testament) and we must go to the Tanak (Old Testament) for that. In the Tanak, the Hebrew word for adultery is "na'aph" (Strong's #5003), and literally means "woman that breaks wedlock". Because male-female roles are different in a Scriptural marriage relationship, what constitutes adultery for a woman is not the same as for a man.

'And a man who commits adultery with the wife of another man, who commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor: the adulterer and the adulteress shall certainly be put to death.' (Leviticus 20:10, The Scriptures)

"When a man is found lying with a woman married to a husband, then both of them shall die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman. Thus you shall purge the evil from Yisra'el. When a girl who is a maiden is engaged to a husband, and a man finds her in the city and lies with her, then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and shall stone them to death with stones, the girl because she did not cry out in the city, and the man because he has humbled his neighbor's wife. Thus you shall purge the evil from your midst." (Deuteronomy 22:22-24, The Scriptures)

These two passages comprehensively define what adultery is. A married or unmarried man commits adultery if he has sexual intercourse with another man's wife (as King David did with Bathsheba, wife of Uriyah) and the woman also becomes an adulteress. This is true whether the woman is fully married (having consummated the relationship) or is betrothed (having entered marriage vows in the presence of witnesses without the relationship having been consummated). This is the only definition of Adultery in the Scriptures.

. . . .

[This message has been edited by elbesssr (edited 06-02-2007).][/B]



Shalom Everyone,

It has been awhile since I visited the forum, but when I came here today I saw that once again this subject of a-typical "marriage" has come up again. I recently was sent a study by someone else on this same subject, so here is part of the response I gave at that time:

As you well know, the patriarchs of old (such as Abraham, Jacob, David, and Solomon) had many wives. The article you referred us to is actually a typical CHRISTIAN response to the belief that more than one wife is permitted by Yahweh in Scripture. The result of such confusion is to condemn the very men that Yahweh spoke so highly of--the patriarchs. It also leads people to doubt Yahweh's Word. Yahweh said of Abraham that He kept Torah, and of David He said that he was a "man after his own heart," and that he "did that which is right . . . except in the matter of Uriah the Hittite." And yet these had more than one wife.

I think the best way to refute this teaching of monogomy only is to simply show the evidence concerning the Scriptural definition of adultery. Many people believe that taking another wife constitutes adultery. But the Scriptural definition of adultery actually shows otherwise, and in fact it demonstrates that a man was permitted to have more than one wife--and such an arrangement would not be considered sin or even out of the ordinary:

Many people believe and will openly say that adultery is when a married man or woman (either one, it doesn't matter which) have a sexual relationship with another partner of the opposite sex. Even the Bible Dictionaries appear to present this view: "adultery, voluntary sexual intercourse between one person and another not the lawful spouse, condemned by the law* codes and seen as detrimental to family* welfare" [The New Harpers Bible Dictionary, by Madeleine S. Miller and J. Lane Miller, Harper and Row Publishers, 1973, p. 7.] This would be adultery in the case of the woman. However, in the case of the married man and from the Scriptural point of view that would not be true:

"And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbours wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death." (Leviticus 20:10).

"If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel." (Deuteronomy 22:22)

Notice that the definition in both of these verses of what constitutes adultery is having sexual intercourse with a "woman married to an husband". Notice also that it is a man (any man) taking a married woman who commits adultery. Now look at this Scripture:

"If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her and lie with her, and they be found; then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days." (Deuteronomy 22:28-29)

Did these texts say anything about the man being married or single? It clearly does not differentiate between a single and a married man! Therefore it can be said that this rule applies to ANY MAN, whether he is married or single! In this last case, it was clearly a sin but not as severe as adultery.

It is very clear that since any man who takes a virgin is required to marry her, then that includes a man who is already married! There is no way of denying the simple truth of this text in Deuteronomy which is part of the Torah that the Messiah said in Matthew 5:18 would remain in effect till heaven and earth pass away. And if this is true, then we have a clear commandment from Torah which would (in some cases) require a polygamous marriage.

Of course, a married woman does not have that same freedom to find any man she wants to have intercourse with. For her, that would constitute adultery (based on the Torah or "law"). For the man to take another wife, that would not be adultery simply because in the Hebrew language that word for adultery specifically applies to a married woman taking a man other than her husband. Here are the other texts that mention adultery, and in each case it is the adulterous wife which is pointed out. It does not say anything about a married man having intercourse with a single woman, since that would not be adultery.

"Because they have committed villainy in Israel, and have committed adultery with their neighbours wives, and have spoken lying words in my name, which I have not commanded them; even I know, and am a witness, saith Yahweh." (Jeremiah 29:23)

"But as a wife that committeth adultery, which taketh strangers instead of her husband." (Ezekiel 16:32)

As difficult as it may be for us to accept polygamy was permitted (not commanded, except in a few specific situations) in scripture! It may be a very unpopular belief, but it is the plain teaching of Scripture.

While many use the argument that not everything done in the Bible is for our example to imitate, this argument does not work in the issue of whether a man was permitted to have other wives. The reason that argument cannot work is because the very legal codes which addressed the issues of sexual sin (adultery or fornication) SPECIFICALLY allowed for the possibility of a man having more than one wife.

Here is another example of a place in the legal codes of Moshe (Torah) where having more than one wife is specifically permitted (Leviticus 18:1-8):

(1) And Yahweh spake unto Moses, saying, (2) Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am Yahweh your Elohim. (3) After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances. (4) Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am Yahweh your Elohim. (5) Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am Yahweh. (6) None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am Yahweh. (7) The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. (8) The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.

Once again we have a distinction that shows a man is permitted to be the husband of more than one wife. Why does this text say that a son or daughter should not uncover the nakedness of EITHER his/her MOTHER, OR his/her FATHER'S WIFE? Isn't that rather redundant, if a man was EXPECTED to only have ONE WIFE and therefore only one MOTHER? Obviously, a righteous Hebrew man was expected to normally have more than one wife, or else there would have been no need to distinguish between these two!

Again, the argument comes up that Yahweh does not specically COMMAND polygamy (polygyn, to be more accurate) in Scripture. While that is true, the problem is that we have this statement found embedded within the actual legal declaration from Yahweh and delivered by Moshe concerning forbidden sexual relations, and it clearly anticipates that a man might normally be expected to have more than one wife by making a distinction between a "mother" and a "father's wife." When you combine this statement with the ones which show the true meaning of adultery you begin to get a picture of a typically polygamous Hebrew society. I guess the only way to get rid of that "picture" is to start tearing out those pages in Scripture which go against the teachings of our Greco-Roman society.

----------------------------------


I might add that in reviewing the many posts to this topic, I have found much in the way of opinions and speculation, emotional tantrums , false and/or misleading accusations, and little in the way of Scriptural evidence. While we have not always been in agreement, thanks Eric for your insights regarding this subject.

Shalom,

Glenn

------------------

[This message has been edited by gmoore44 (edited 06-05-2007).]

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tedack

Posts: 629
Registered: May 2005

posted 06-02-2007 06:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tedack     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Basically, anyone with young unmarried daughters need to worry more about believers than criminals then, right? Criminals worry about police and jail when they plan to rape a young girl, but believers don't need to worry right? Since they're doing nothing wrong? All they need to worry about is being caught because they might have to marry her and have the chance to do the same thing again and again until one of them dies, with the blessing of YHWH?!

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