You wrote:Indicating to me that Yahu'shua was with the angelic host

It's great that you see that. It's what I believe too.

YHWH continue to bless you,

Sharon wrote: I wonder if maybe they are for my benefit alone and others will just have to get it the same way I do.

My youngest daugher was up last night reading both of your posts.

Yes you are both doing good. Keep planting the good seeds.

May your rewards in heaven be great.

Blessings in Yahshua's name,

Sharon, keep posting, please don't be discouraged, even if EVERYONE disagreed, it doesn't matter. Maybe something will come back to someone's mind later when they need it. Or a perspective could be opened up so someone can consider something they hadn't noticed or understood before.

But I can't help question a specific purpose one is to fulfill though.... Wasn't he born for the purpose of being Messiah ? So if you are born for a certain purpose it doesn't seem like you are going to end up doing something other than what leads to fulfilling your purpose...right ?
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Originally posted by tedack:
Missy, you asked:

But I can't help question a specific purpose one is to fulfill though.... Wasn't he born for the purpose of being Messiah ? So if you are born for a certain purpose it doesn't seem like you are going to end up doing something other than what leads to fulfilling your purpose...right ?
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Just because that's why he was born doesn't mean he would necessarily do it. If he had given in to temptation, he would no longer qualify to be the Messiah. He would have given up on his purpose whether he knew it or not. But he was so close to the Father and given the gift of being full of the Spirit of Yah from birth (or before) that he was able to understand and submit to the will and purpose of the Father.

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Shalom Tedack,

Yeah but to me that seems to be the whole point of being specifically born for a certain purpose. What other purpose was he to serve besides being Moshiach ? I mean I get the premise of what you are stating and I don't neccessarily disagree.. I am just posing the question. If Yeshua had the very Spirit of YHWH.. then he couldn't do anything else besides fulfill his purpose.

But from what Dave52 pointed out.. Yeshua did have his own spirit. So some how it has to be reconciled that he had a specific purpose, had his own spirit/will and the Spirit of YHWH at the same time. And to me that leaves the door open for questions concerning whether or not he would have done anything else..meaning could he REALLY have done anything else besides fulfill his purpose of being Moshiach.

I guess it's sort of like the Pharaoh. He was to fulfill a certain purpose so it seems. Some say he didn't have a choice at all. And then some point out that he was given an opportunity several times to change his mind but didn't. Now was this his own choice or was it basically him fulfilling his purpose because he couldn't have done anything else since that was the plan...or is it some combination of all those things...

But the logical answer seems to be what John Cordaro pointed out that basically if he (Yeshua) didn't resist temptations and sin on his own then what benefit would that have..what example is that ? (My paraphrase). But for some reason that doesn't seem to sit snug for me.. not sure as to why... perhaps it's just me over analyzing.

Well enough of my rambling.

Shalom and thanks for your response.

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chuckbaldwin wrote: Yes. Death of the spirit is the 2nd death.

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No, fire and brimstone cannot kill a spirit.

Re 21:8 Shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

And there can’t be a 2nd death if there wasn’t a 1st death to begin with.

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chuckbaldwin wrote: From 36 OT Scriptures that say "so-and-so slept with his fathers...", and the following NT verses:
1Co 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in the Messiah are perished.
Jn 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Yahshua spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Yahshua unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

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As the passage in John demonstrates the word “sleep” was, and often still is, used as a metaphor for dead. But here Yahshua declares plainly that sleep is not death. But of course if you’ve ever been to a funeral home to see a relative’s remains then you know how much it looks as if they’re sleeping.

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chuckbaldwin wrote: The body ceases living, while the spirit (with all the memories & character) sleeps.

Yes. Death of the spirit is the 2nd death.

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Does the spirit remain alive but is just sleeping or is the sleep you speak of what we know of as death. Did Yahshua die or did he just have a 3 day sleep?

But just as fire and brimstone can’t kill a spirit neither can spirit sleep. The spirit doesn’t die or sleep but what do the scriptures say it does at death?

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto Elohim who gave it.

The body dies which releases the spirit. We consist of a body and spirit. The spirit is like a chip or software that enables us to think, reason and speak. We don’t exist without our bodies, our spirit can’t stand alone but returns to Elohim who give it to us at our beginning.

The spirit doesn’t hold our memory, character or mind but our body does.

1Co 15:35 Some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

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42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

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49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

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Originally posted by tedack:

Sharon, keep posting, please don't be discouraged, even if EVERYONE disagreed, it doesn't matter. Maybe something will come back to someone's mind later when they need it. Or a perspective could be opened up so someone can consider something they hadn't noticed or understood before.

It's hard that the four took off to a private thread and abandoned us!
Yes, i understand, i'm sure it makes good sense but hearing "both" sides often helps.

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Shalom Tedack

Thanks again for the encouragement.

BTW, I don't mind that people disagree I just don't like when they get nasty about disagreeing such as cynical, sarcastic or mocking.

Like I said before, I get so much stimulation from this forum. Inspiration to seek and study so I can assume that others do so as well but it is nice to hear.

As for the fabulous four, we still have brothers Yohanan and John with us.
And what a blessing they are!

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Originally posted by Dave52:
No, fire and brimstone cannot kill a spirit.

Re 21:8 Shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

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Fire & brimstone can't burn "death" or "hell" ("hades" - the "grave") either. so the "lake of fire" is simply a metaphor for final destruction.

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And there can’t be a 2nd death if there wasn’t a 1st death to begin with.

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But here [Jn.11:11-14] Yahshua declares plainly that sleep is not death.

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What Yahshua was saying is that Lazarus' spirit was sleeping, while he was physically dead.

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Does the spirit remain alive but is just sleeping or is the sleep you speak of what we know of as death. Did Yahshua die or did he just have a 3 day sleep?

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But just as fire and brimstone can’t kill a spirit neither can spirit sleep. The spirit doesn’t die or sleep but what do the scriptures say it does at death?

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto Elohim who gave it.

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The body dies which releases the spirit. [agreed] We consist of a body and spirit. [agreed] The spirit is like a chip or software that enables us to think, reason and speak. We don’t exist without our bodies, our spirit can’t stand alone but returns to Elohim who give it to us at our beginning.

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The spirit doesn’t hold our memory, character or mind but our body does.

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Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit [NOT with our BODY], that we are the children of Elohim:

That's how we receive the "mind of the Messiah", and holy righteous character; not by YHWH putting part of His "body" in us, but by giving us a portion of His "Spirit", which contains His thoughts and character.

1 - The spirit doesn’t hold our memory, character or mind but our body does.
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2 - I disagree. I believe that the spirit is what contains all the "data" - thoughts, memories, & character, while the BRAIN is the "computer chip" that processes the "data". The body decays and goes in every which direction. Which piece of decaying flesh contains which memory? That doesn't make sense.

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I've always assumed the first is biologically true, and that's exactly what leads scientists to experiment and theorize about the nature of conciousness and self-awareness. It doesn't seem that theory lends credence to resurrection. Too many problems with horrid deaths and body parts, sorry that's so morbid. YHWH could put someone back together from cells, atoms, that had become dust but He apparently didn't with Yahushua - no one recognized his face and body - but their spirits burned within them in recognition of his spirit.
I like the way our new knowledge of computers can be used to make more sense of something that really couldn't be reconciled before. Of course, it may not be right, but it shows once again that we just lack pieces of the puzzle. Just a little more knowledge and understanding shows that it may some day be comprehensible: whether it is in our lifetimes or not doesn't matter because He gives us enough to know it's possible. Knowing Him means we can trust Him but then He gives us just enough more that shows we can trust Him still more - He's got things covered. He is just awesome. Every fact, every possibility, every thought, can lead us closer if we let Him do the leading. I LOVE HIM! And I love everyone on here for discussing, thinking, meditating, and sharing and CARING about what is true, caring about Him and His Ways!

And now just after writing this and having just read burning one's post meditating on His greatness, i hear the line in a song i'm playing, "And we cannot say enough about You. HalleluYah."

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No, I don't believe "things that are seen were once existing in an invisible state" - I conclude from Hebrews 11 that what we see was made of an invisible substance. That the word of Yahweh and the breath of His mouth is that invisible substance.

I understand that the Word of YHVH and the breath of his mouth by which the heavens and their host were made are NOT 'nothing'. They are a substance as real as the invisible substances helium or oxygen are to us. A creative substance! The substance of which EVERYTHING else is made.

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The above is a much more reasonable position than what I thought you were saying. You originally wrote: “Therefore the sun would be an eternal thing which had only changed it's state to become visible.” The sun itself was not an eternal thing. It had a beginning when it was spoken into existence. However, to say the “word” or “breath” was a real eternal substance that was USED to create the sun is, to me, a different concept than what you originally said. Or am I misunderstanding you again?

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By some process, of which I am not privy yet, the substance of his words are transformed into the creation we see and don't see.

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I agree.

Can you please explain how you see this concept in relation to the pre-existence issue? Are you saying Yahshua pre-existed as this creative substance or that he pre-existed as the one who used that substance to create? I would say that creative substance was used by Yahweh to create Yahshua in Miriam’s womb.

Shalom,
John

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Originally posted by chuckbaldwin:
I looked it up on WWW.dictionary.com (after i corrected my spelling), and found the following definitions (which i think someone has already given earlier):
1. to exist beforehand.
2. to exist in a previous state.
–verb (used with object) 3. to exist prior to (something or someone else); precede: primitive artifacts that preexisted sophisticated tools.

Based on these, the FATHER fits #1 & #3, relative to any event we can name. Therefore the Father literally pre-existed.

As per your last request above, i will state that i believe "the Son existed in a different form prior to becoming flesh", as per def #2 above.

So, in light of the above definitions, i'm bewildered why you say that "pre-existence" "doesn't apply to life-forms"? e.g. "The mother bear pre-existed the birth of her cubs" (#3 above).

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My statement that pre-exist doesn't apply to life forms was meant to be understood in light of my other comment: "Something can pre-exist something else, but it cannot pre-exist itself." In your example above, the mother bear CAN pre-exist her cubs, but she CANNOT pre-exist her self or her own existence.

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Originally posted by John Cordaro:
My statement that pre-exist doesn't apply to life forms was meant to be understood in light of my other comment: "Something can pre-exist something else, but it cannot pre-exist itself." In your example above, the mother bear CAN pre-exist her cubs, but she CANNOT pre-exist her self or her own existence.

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Originally posted by tedack:
I wonder if his disciples "burned" in recognition of Yahushua's spirit or the spirit of YHWH IN him?
Will we all be absorbed into the great cosmic conciousness that is YHWH? I'm not saying He is a great cosmic conciousness, just wondering how to really think about Him.

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Shalom tedack,

interesting you mention "burning".

last Shabbat i did a teaching about Chanukah for the congregation i attend. it was centered on the menorah, and how the detailed construction of the menorah as given in the book of Shemoth points directly to the Torah, and then collectively to the entire Word, and how it was meant to "be a light".

then i dealt with Messiah's proclamation that He is "The Light", but only while He was in the world - now we are to be "The Light". i took this to mean that as "lights" we are to embody the Torah, the Word of the Father, symbolized in the menorah, which was placed in Yah's Presence. Messiah was the Torah living and breathing for each and every person to see. as all good disciples do, we should mimic our Rabbi to the very T.

understanding it in this fashion, it explains the angelic beings described in YeshaYahu 6, who stood before the Presence of the Father. they are called Seraphim, literally meaning in Hebrew "burning ones". to stand in His Presence, therefore, one must be "on fire", to quote a popular christian phrase. but what does it mean to be "on fire"? it means to [u]live the Torah[/u]!

all of this makes the passage out of YeshaYahu 33:10-17 make perfect sense -- the only ones who can "dwell with devouring fire, who can dwell with everlasting burnings" are those who live the same Torah life as Messiah, being lights in the world, and in the Presence of the Father.

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No, I don't believe "things that are seen were once existing in an invisible state" - I conclude from Hebrews 11 that what we see was made of an invisible substance. That the word of Yahweh and the breath of His mouth is that invisible substance.
I understand that the Word of YHVH and the breath of his mouth by which the heavens and their host were made are NOT 'nothing'. They are a substance as real as the invisible substances helium or oxygen are to us. A creative substance! The substance of which EVERYTHING else is made.

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John wrote:
The above is a much more reasonable position than what I thought you were saying. You originally wrote: “Therefore the sun would be an eternal thing which had only changed it's state to become visible.” The sun itself was not an eternal thing. It had a beginning when it was spoken into existence. However, to say the “word” or “breath” was a real eternal substance that was USED to create the sun is, to me, a different concept than what you originally said. Or am I misunderstanding you again?

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Shalom John
I haven't changed what I am trying to convey but I can understand how you would think that was what I was saying. This medium is such a limited means of communication especially on this sort of subject. But I think we are getting closer in minds now.

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Sharon wrote:
By some process, of which I am not privy yet, the substance of his words are transformed into the creation we see and don't see.

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John wrote:
I agree.

Can you please explain how you see this concept in relation to the pre-existence issue? Are you saying Yahshua pre-existed as this creative substance or that he pre-existed as the one who used that substance to create? I would say that creative substance was used by Yahweh to create Yahshua in Miriam’s womb.

Shalom,
John

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I would favor A. He pre-existed as "Word" aka creative substance, energy, power. And when walked on earth he possessed that substance to create. AND we his children do too.

Here are more of my musings on the subject.
I am not a mathematician or physicist, so I welcome correction from anyone who is, but I do have a undertanding of basic math. In basic algebra I was taught that everything on one side of the equal sign must be equivalent to everything on the other side.

With that basic information, let's take Einstein's theory:
In 1905, as part of his Special Theory of Relativity, he made the intriguing point that a large amount of energy could be released from a small amount of matter. This was expressed by the equation E=mc2 (energy = mass times the speed of light squared). The atomic bomb would clearly illustrate this principle.

Now it occurred to me that the massive power released by the atomic bomb that was dropped on Hiroshima was contained in that small amount of matter (one atom?) then it would be mathematically correct to say that it required that much power to create that one atom?

In other words,
If mass accelerated to the speed of light squared would become pure energy.
Then pure energy decelerated to the square root would create mass?

abracadabra! the process of creation! theoretically!

Now how those atoms know whether they are a tree or a human is ????
Add electron and protons?
It is as mystifying as watching the cells split in an embryo and take their place as a bone, organ, brain or nerve cell under the invisible direction of some intelligent force!