Thank you for your detailed response!

Since my time is very limited right now, I will be brief for a change!

You wrote:

quote:

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Scripture does not tell us how long or how often we are to wear frontlets. From what I have read, and I believe it was even posted on this thread or the other recent one by someone else, that in Messiah's time the frontlets were worn all day by those who did wear them. Only in the passing of time and with the threat of persecution did they become relegated by the "Rabbinic authorities" in modern Judaism to set times. Now that sect performs the command during prayer, bar mitzvahs, brit milahs, and I think some Hasidic sects wear them during part of their wedding celebration.

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I reply with several questions:

1. How do you know frontlets were worn all day by "those who did wear them"?

2. Who were "those who did wear them"?

3. Who were those who didn't wear them, and how serious was this infraction (i.e., what was the penalty)?

4. Re: Rabbinic Judaism's relegation to frontlets being worn only during prayer, bar mitzvahs, brit milahs and wedding celebrations: Do you really believe those are occasions when we as believers need to focus on remembering to obey YHWH's Torah?

5. When (i.e., what times of the day) do you wear frontlets?

Finally, I know you asked me about my "spriritual application" of frontlets. As I regard this command to be figurative and not literal, I simply do my best to obey those commands which are literal and keep my focus on YHWH's Torah day and night (embedded in my mind and reflected by my actions). Being human, sometimes my focus isn't the best in the world, but YHWH knows I'm working on it, and by His mercy and the shed blood of His Son Yeshua the Messiah our High Priest, I will be in the Kingdom. I know you and I have not (yet) crossed paths in this lifetime ... may we do so in the Kingdom.

In the love of YHWH through His Son Yeshua the Messiah,
Larry

_____________________

Blessed be the name of YHWH

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Acheson:
Hi, burning one:

Thank you for your detailed response!

Since my time is very limited right now, I will be brief for a change!

You wrote: I reply with several questions:

1. How do you know frontlets were worn all day by "those who did wear them"?

2. Who were "those who did wear them"?

3. Who were those who didn't wear them, and how serious was this infraction (i.e., what was the penalty)?

4. Re: Rabbinic Judaism's relegation to frontlets being worn only during prayer, bar mitzvahs, brit milahs and wedding celebrations: Do you really believe those are occasions when we as believers need to focus on remembering to obey YHWH's Torah?

5. When (i.e., what times of the day) do you wear frontlets?

Finally, I know you asked me about my "spriritual application" of frontlets. As I regard this command to be figurative and not literal, I simply do my best to obey those commands which are literal and keep my focus on YHWH's Torah day and night (embedded in my mind and reflected by my actions). Being human, sometimes my focus isn't the best in the world, but YHWH knows I'm working on it, and by His mercy and the shed blood of His Son Yeshua the Messiah our High Priest, I will be in the Kingdom. I know you and I have not (yet) crossed paths in this lifetime ... may we do so in the Kingdom.

In the love of YHWH through His Son Yeshua the Messiah,
Larry

_____________________

Blessed be the name of YHWH

[This message has been edited by Acheson (edited 06-11-2006).]

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Shalom Larry,

i'll followup your questions using your numbering.

1. The Talmud, tractate Menahot 36b, if i recall exactly, speaks about the older manner of wearing being all day. at the time it was written, however, wearing them all day long had greatly lessened. i don't know what worth you place on the Talmud or Mishnah, but i will refer to them from time to time to see how the cultural life of early Yisra'El was lived out. i find them to be helpful at times as well in my attempt to understand Orthodox Jewish thought, since they place so much emphasis on them spiritually. i would never take it has a Scriptural authority, but only as cutural-historical information.

2. i cannot give you a full spectrum of the people who wore them. they were worn by many different types, like the Pharisees (of whom Sha'ul was one), and even by the early followers of Messiah, as Talmudic history shows.

3. again, i cannot give you a full spectrum of those who did not wear them. i can tell you for certain that the Samritans did not wear them. if there was ever a penalty for not wearing them, i am unaware of it.

4. for the record, i was merely listing what Rabbinic Judaism does today in their version of the frontlets, not actually agreeing with it. we always need to be astute and aware of Yah and His commands, at all times, wouldn't you agree? so i do not think that wearing them during those listed times would be wrong. it is like this: is it wrong to pray wearing your tassels, or attend a brit milah, or wedding, with them on? i would say "no". and i look at it the same way, but that is my opinion.

5. i wear them as much as i personally can. depending on what i am doing, i may not wear them. for example, i am a carpenter and work with many nice sharp tools which could very easily grab hold of them and then i would be in trouble. i considered wearing them at work, but my boss (who is Torah-observant as well, praise Yah), asked me not out of that particular concern (he lost a finger once so he is attentive to that issue -- but it was also reattached and he has perfect use of it again - praise Yah), and i am also sort of a klutz. so other than that, i wear them as often as i can. very rarely do i wear the Rabbinic version, as in my opinion it is somewhat cumbersome and hard to move around in. the set i made for myself is easily accessible and follows the words of Messiah which spoke out against the manner in which the Pharisees performed it, who "make their frontlets wide", MattithYahu (Matthew) 23:5, just as i also make my tassels somewhat shorter so as not to be "showy".

as for your personal application of the command, i see that as great and have no qualms with you. we do the best we can do with what we know and where we are at, as i've said before, and we are all relying ultimately on the mercy of our Father through the Messiah for our redemption. we have no other hope than that.

may our paths cross at a divinely ordained time, if not here, then surely in the Kingdom!

Chayim b’Moshiach (Life in Messiah)[/B]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Burning one has asked the question of "how do you personally fulfill this command spiritually". I would like to point out that so far I have yet to see any evidence that the 4 texts which he is refering to are even commands at all! There is NO command in Scripture regarding the wearing of tefillin, whether literal or spiritual. It is a Rabbinic tradition which is without historical foundation (prior to about 250 BCE) and without Scriptural authority. For those of you who have been refering to the 613 commandments of Torah, I would recommend that you should revise that number--since it is based upon Jewish tradition. Maybe it would be better to say something like "612" or maybe even "600+" commands.

Now I mentioned this about a week ago and I am still waiting for a response. I do not understand how someone can make the bold statement that the wearing of tefillin is an actual commandment of Scripture and yet I seem to be the only one who has the courage to directly appose this teaching. It is not a matter of "physical" verses "spiritual" commandments. Burning one has asked a question about a supposed commandment without even establishing the truth of whether it is a commandment or not. To say it is a "mitzvah" (command) is entirely presumptious--it IS NOT A COMMANDMENT! These very 4 texts in question do not even so much as hint that a commandment is involved!!!

Now if there is someone out there who feels that my assessment is incorrect, however, I would be more than willing to see and hear whatever credible evidence which they would like to offer. In the mean time may I suggest that the reader please check out the article that I wrote on the subject of the Oral Torah and the tefillin . . . http://www.ponderscripture.org/articles.html It is called "Are Believers Commanded to Wear Tefillin as Taught by Rabbinic Judaism?" I only point this out in the hopes of stimulating some discussion along these lines.

Shalom,

Glenn

I have followed this thread with varying degrees between boredom and great interest. Some thoughts just hit me when thinking about the question "How do you keep this command spiritually?". So here's my 2cts worth.

First question: Is "it" a command? or better worded: Is there a command involved? To answer, i quote from the verses involved:

Deut.6:5-9
5 And thou shalt love YHWH thy Almighty with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.
9 And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.

Notice the words in boldface. It would certainly appear that something is being commanded, but is it literal or figurative/spiritual? Let's look at each verse individually; the following is my opinion.

V5 is literal, although the possibility of performing it is debatable.
V6 is obviously spiritual. And under the New Covenant, YHWH does it for us.
V7 is literal (1st part) and figurative (last part). Unless your children sleep in the same bedroom as you, and "rise up" at exactly the same time, you couldn't do it literally.
V8 (the verse in question) is spiritual, just like V6. If you can show me an x-ray where you have a little box or scroll containing "these words" inside your blood pump (heart), then i will start wearing frontlets.
V9 is literal, although i wonder how many actually do it.

I hope this helps

quote:

---

Originally posted by chuckbaldwin:
Greetings all,

I have followed this thread with varying degrees between boredom and great interest. Some thoughts just hit me when thinking about the question "How do you keep this command spiritually?". So here's my 2cts worth.

First question: Is "it" a command? or better worded: Is there a command involved? To answer, i quote from the verses involved:

Deut.6:5-9
.....

Notice the words in [b]boldface. It would certainly appear that something is being commanded, but is it literal or figurative/spiritual? Let's look at each verse individually; the following is my opinion.

[/B]

---

Chuck Baldwin has made some good observations.  And
I agree that there are commands referred to in this text of Deuteronomy
6.  The question we need to address is exactly which one of these
statements is a true command, and which one is merely a metaphorical
expression intended to expand upon the command already given.  To better
understand Deuteronomy 6 maybe we should go to the parallel text of Exodus 13:

"And it shall be when Yahweh shall bring
you into the land of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and
the Hivites, and the Jebusites, which He swore to your fathers to give you, a
land flowing with milk and honey, that you shall keep
this service in this month.  You shall eat unleavened bread
seven days, and in the seventh day shall be a feast to Yahweh.
Unleavened bread shall be eaten seven days. And there shall be no
leavened bread seen with you, nor shall there be leaven seen with you
in all your borders. And you shall tell your son in that day, saying, This is
because of what Yahweh did for me when I came out from Egypt. And
it shall be a sign to you upon your hand, and for a memorial
between your eyes, that Yahweh's Torah may be in your mouth. For the Lord has
brought you out of Egypt with a strong hand. You shall therefore keep this law
in its season from year to year."  (Exodus 13:5-10)

I don't mind going to Deuteronomy 6 and other
verses which are considered "parallel" verses.  However, we
have to look at all of those verses because they will explain each
other.  If one is a little "unclear" the other text will take
up the slack.  This text in Exodus 13 does just exactly that--it helps us
understand more precisely what this "sign" upon our hand and
"memorial" between our eyes was intended to be.

First, we need to ask what "it"
is?  Obviously, "it" is referring to everything involved in the
keeping of Passover.  If the keeping of Passover is to be "a sign to
you upon your hand, and for a memorial between your eyes" it is obvious
that the only "command" that is referred to here is the command to
keep Passover!  But, there is more.

In each of the 4 texts in question the Hebrew
character "lamed" is found modifying the words "sign" and
"memorial" and the "frontlets" of Deuteronomy 6 and
11.  The lamed, when used as a modifier, can be translated
"at" or "for" or "as" or even in some cases
"like".  The text could be translated "And it shall be like
a sign to you upon your hand, and like
a memorial between your eyes, that Yahweh's Torah may be in your
mouth."  If this is the case, then obviously the intended meaning of
this text is to be a "metaphorical expression" of how the keeping of
Passover is to be "like" a precious jewel upon our forehead and
"like" a precious bracelet upon our hand.  This would,
therefore, show that not only is this a metaphorical (or symbolic) expression
BUT it is not to be understood as a command--except, by inference, as an
extension of the command already mentioned to keep the Passover! 
Therefore, whatever is to be done on the forehead or the hand it is not to be
understood literally--any more than having "Yahweh's Torah...in your
mouth".  He is merely speaking of how obedience will be
"like" having a fine jewel in the forehead or a wonderful bracelet
on the hand, and how the result of this will be that they will naturally have
the Torah in their mouth.  What is the conclusion of the matter? 
"You shall therefore keep this law in its season from year to
year."  What law?  The law of tefillin?  No! 
The law of Passover!!

Now let's go back to Deut. 6 using what we have
learned so far. 

"Hear, O Israel: Yahweh our Elohim is
one Yahweh: And thou shalt love Yahweh thy Elohim with all thine heart, and
with all thy soul, and with all thy might. And
these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine
heart: And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk
of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way,
and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. And thou shalt bind them
for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine
eyes."  (Deuteronomy 6:4-8)

What was commanded? 
"these words"!  Well, we might make a case that
"these words" refers to the whole of Yahweh's commands found in the
Torah.  But at the very least we have to conclude that he is referring to
the prior statement where he says "Yahweh our Elohim is one Yahweh: 
And thou shalt love Yahweh thy Elohim with all thine heart, and with all they
soul, and with all they might."  That is the commandment, and
Messiah says that it is the first and greatest of all commandments!! 
Now, this is the heart of the matter.  It is the whole cake--everything
else is simply the icing on the cake.  It is the window. 
Everything else is merely the window dressing.  

So the text says they "shalt bind them for
a sign"...what is "them"?  "them" is referring
back to "these words".  And what are "these
words"?  The words Yahweh had just finished commanding them. 
And what is that?  It is the command to "love Yahweh thy Elohim with
all thine heart". 

And what will happen if they keep this one
command?  Those who choose to keep
this command  will naturally
have them ("these words" in their heart.  They will naturally
want to teach them to their children.  They will naturally
talk of them when they sit in their houses, when they walk by the way, when
they lie down and when they rise up.  And they will naturally
bind them "like" a sign upon their hands, and they will naturally
be "like" jewels between their eyes.  And they will naturally
place them upon their doors and gates. [By the way, while it could be
understood literally it may have a more figurative intent.  A mezuzah
alone could not fulfill the requirements of this text.  "gates"
are a reference to the place of judgment in the city, where people assemble to
hear righteous judgment.  How are the Jews (or anyone else) fulfilling
this mitzvah when they are not even able to render righteous judgment "in
their gates" now?  And our legal system today is not fulfilling this
command, so who is?]

In Exodus 13 it was Passover that was to be
bound "like" a sign upon their forehead and hand.  And here in
this text of Deuteronomy 6 it is the command to love Yahweh with all our
heart, soul and might which is to serve as the "command". 
Although I did not cover Deuteronomy 11, the context there shows that the
command that is to be placed "like" a sign upon their foreheads and
hands is ALL THE COMMANDMENTS which Yahweh had given to them (the whole
Torah).  And all of these 3 distinct commands were to be "like"
a sign upon their foreheads and hands.

Based on what I have found so far, it would
appear that in each of these 3 distinct texts there is one primary command
involved in each.  However, the reference to "frontlets" and
"sign" is a metaphorical expression intended to expand upon the
command that had already been given in the verses in question. 
Therefore, there is no "command" in Scripture to wear frontlets,
whether "literal" or "symbolic".

Shalom,

Glenn

 

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Burning one:

. . . 4) as for your thoughts on the things presented about frontlets, those can be dealt with in the other thread more appropriately. i have information that was not presented in the book since it wasn't entirely finished, and it is info that the "rebuttal" book on your site has not dealt with, either. you may want to keep an open mind as of now before you hear all the evidence.

---

In the original article on the tefillin which I posted about 3 months ago to the internet (which "Burning one" has alluded to) I addressed directly the most important questions raised by Jews and some Messianic teachers regarding the teaching of the tefillin. I did write it as a response to the "tefillin" doctrine presented by "Burning one" and out of a desire to clarify what the teachings of Scripture are in regards to the "tefillin". However, it could hardly be called a "rebuttal" article since it did not even quote directly from the book written by "Burning one". He has said that my article did not address many of the issues which he raised, and he is correct. It did not address ALL the issues he raised because it was not necessary to do that in order to present a comprehensive explanation of the topic.

Since he has stated that my article did not deal with or answer many of his questions, I feel it has now become necessary to indeed publish a supplemental presentation on that topic (which would qualify as a true "rebuttal") to reexamine the issue of the tefillin and answer the many other questions which have also been introduced by those adhering to that doctrine (which includes but is not limited to the author "Burning one").

This doctrine is right now in it's "infancy stage", so now is the time for us to address it directly before it evolves into another major false teaching like that of "lunar sabbath", the rejection of "Torah", "secret rapture", "cheap grace" ("once saved, always saved"), etc. Please remember that the focus of this issue is not what people choose to wear or not to wear. The focus of this issue is over a "teaching" (or doctrine) which is taught as if it were a command of Yahweh, when it is really not a command of Yahweh.

I will not waste everyone's time and the space on this thread to give a detailed discussion of the various topics. It is better that this "advanced" presentation should be made available on the internet, and it can be found at the following link: This article is entitled Tefillin: Supplemental Issues. 
Please also read the more comprehensive article entitled Are Believers Commanded to Wear Tefillin as Taught by Rabbinic Judaism?
Subjects which will be covered in this latest article are:

The Importance of Following the Supposed 'Mitzvah' of Tefillin


Do the Four Major Texts Support a Literal Interpretation of Tefillin


Are There Commands in Those Four Texts?


Can Tefillin be Found in the Ancient Pictographic Hebrew?


Do the Tefillin Found in Qumran Caves Prove Tefillin Are Scriptural?


Where Did the Newark, Ohio, Tefillin Come From and How Old Are They?


Did Abraham Know About Tefillin?


Did Judah Give Tefillin to a Harlot as a Pledge?


Did King Saul and his Daughter Wear Tefillin?


Did the High Priest Wear Tefillin?


Did Tefillin Come to the Ancient Nations of Afghanistan, Africa, India, and Japan Through the Lost Tribes of Israel?


Did Messiah Yahushua Wear Tefillin?


Do Tefillin Have a Connection with the Mark of the Beast?


Did the "Minim" Wear Tefillin, and Just Who Are They?


Does the Wearing of Tefillin Lend Support to the "Oral Torah"?


Is Tefillin Scriptural or Is It of Rabbinic Origin?




May Yahweh bless the reader with insight and understanding as they attempt to find the original truths of Scripture. It is "truth" that we are seeking, and it all begins when we humble ourselves and admit that we may not have all the truth. That applies to me as well.

Shalom to all,

Glenn
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