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Um no disrespect but um today women have um.."things" so nothing will get on the bed at all.. personal items I mean. So don't really get where you are coming from here...

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I am coming from the belief that not only does touching the actual discharge render one unclean, but touching the unclean person or object renders one unclean as well. Lev.15:19 does not say, "and whosoever touches her discharge shall be unclean until the even." Verse 20 does not say anything about the discharge getting on the bed, chair, etc. Verse 21 does not say, "And whosoever touches her bed on which the discharge is ..."

The JPS Torah Commentary on Lev.15:23 reads, "Be it the bedding or be it the object on which she has sat, on touching it he shall be unclean until evening. The KJV suggests the discharge is on the bedding or chair. Even if that is correct, it is simply progressing in instruction from touching the unclean person to touching the unclean object to touching the unclean object with a discharge on it to touching the actual discharge via intercourse. It is interesting that once the discharge is touched, a seven day uncleanness results whereas when no discharge is touched, only a one day uncleanness results.

So, as I understand it, wearing a "thing" to prevent the discharge from touching the bed, chair, etc., is irrelevant since the person herself is unclean and not just the discharge.

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Frankly, Yeshua has taken care of the "unclean" ceremonial aspect of everything. If a woman takes care to make sure her bed is clean (clean linens), she showers well everyday like I hope ANY woman on her period would have common decency to do, and uses proper feminine products we have on the market today there is no reason to label her "unclean" simple because she's on her period. (Not saying you said any of this).

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Yahweh has already declared the exact opposite of your statement here. Can you please explain that further and provide Scripture to support it? Are you suggesting that uncleanness resulting from touching the unclean is only ceremonial, but touching the discharge is not?

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So I definitely get your point about always walking around with our hands in our pockets.. we could even go further though..we better not sit down anywhere either.. LOL!

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We try our best to avoid becoming unclean by eating unclean, yet there are so many things thay may have unclean ingredients that we eat without knowing. We don't walk around with muzzles over our mouths to avoid such problems. And we certainly would not throw our hands up in despair and say, "Oh well, its unavoidable so I might as well just eat anything!" The same holds true for this issue (no pun intended). Though we come in contact with uncleanness everyday unknowingly, that does not mean we should give up trying to remain clean. We certainly should not throw our hands up in despair and say, "Oh well, I am constantly unclean so I might as well start having intercourse with my menstruating wife!"

One more point; I know you have expressed a desire to post in a more loving, pious manner (I can't remember the actual words you used). I commend you in that and pray you will succeed. May I suggest that discontinuing to use "um" would lead to that end? It sounds so demeaning, as if to say, "Duh, how stupid can you be?" I am not saying that is how you meant it. I doubt that is the case. I am only saying that is how I take it.

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I really don't see how that these laws apply to the people of today who if they accept Yahushua and the baptism He came to immerse with of the Ruach ha Kodesh/Holy Spirit and Fire then they are the temple of YAhu'eh so how could this law apply at all?

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Aside from studies that have shown that Jewish women have a 1:15 ratio of not getting cervical cancer compared to other women, I would say this; If we desire to not defile the temple of the Holy Spirit (our bodies) and remain clean by eating clean, why shouldn't we apply that same desire to any other matter of uncleanness? I have no desire to defile my temple by having intercourse with a menstruous woman or to touch a dead body or to eat unclean, etc. Yahweh has told us not to do such things. If that has changed, then please provide the necessary proof from Scripture.

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Originally posted by Missy:

Yes. Because Yeshua took care of ceremonial issues. But I do believe the woman should be well bathed and using proper products for that time.

Shalom,
M

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I read your post. I pretty much feel I have explained my position on what I believe concerning this matter. I was pretty sure your own view was as you stated. So understanding this, there is really no reason for me to go into it all over again. You could simply re-read my posts..my position hasn't changed. It's clear we see this matter in a different way which I already knew we did, and I am okay with that..I don't feel the need to try to justify what I believe to you. No offense. It will just end up going around in nonsensical circles. And I don't feel like going there. Just something I want to avoid more of from now on.

I am not going to stop putting "um" in my posts. You said it "sounds demeaning". Well frankly, it doesn't sound like anything because we are posting and not talking to one another. If you feel deameaned by it that's your own perception and I don't think I should be responsible for your incorrect perceptions. I guess you could just disreguard my "ums" if they bother you.

For the record, I think it's filthy to have sex with a menustrating woman and against the law of Yahweh. I stated that the Scriptures seem to point that out. I even quoted that Scripture. So where you are coming from with this statement "Oh well, I am constantly unclean so I might as well start having intercourse with my menstruating wife!" is um (there it is again) pretty much beyond me.

I hope that you don't get emotional about this post, it's not meant to offend. I just see a bullet coming if I engage here and I am just trying to get out of dodge by not even going there. I do hope you understand...

Shalom,
M

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Originally posted by kenanddeb:
You are quite right Missy, it was a ceremonial law and they were taken when Yahushua died for us.. Praise Yahweh...

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Well that is just my belief from my understanding of Scripture and Yeshua's sacrifice. I didn't want to try to influence anyone. I think people should allow the Spirit to lead them. If someone feels persuaded in their own mind about a certain belief.. more power to them. I can't answer for them in the end. All I can do is give my understanding of whatever the matter is.. but I think people should study matters out themselves and decide based on what they understand..not on what I understand...

Shalom,
M

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May I suggest that discontinuing to use "um" would lead to that end? It sounds so demeaning, as if to say, "Duh, how stupid can you be?" I am not saying that is how you meant it. I doubt that is the case. I am only saying that is how I take it.

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shalom John,

I sometimes use "um" when talking, but it is more like a thinking aloud, like "hmm, how can I express what I want to say..."

I'm sure Missy means this, as it's the first I've heard that "um" can be demeaning.

have a lovely shabbat,

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For the record, I think it's filthy to have sex with a menustrating woman and against the law of Yahweh. I stated that the Scriptures seem to point that out. I even quoted that Scripture. So where you are coming from with this statement "Oh well, I am constantly unclean so I might as well start having intercourse with my menstruating wife!" is um (there it is again) pretty much beyond me.

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My statement was not directed at your beliefs. I simply took the issue to an extreme to make a point.

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John Cordaro wrote: We try our best to avoid becoming unclean by eating unclean, yet there are so many things thay may have unclean ingredients that we eat without knowing. We don't walk around with muzzles over our mouths to avoid such problems. And we certainly would not throw our hands up in despair and say, "Oh well, its unavoidable so I might as well just eat anything!" The same holds true for this issue (no pun intended). Though we come in contact with uncleanness everyday unknowingly, that does not mean we should give up trying to remain clean. We certainly should not throw our hands up in despair and say, "Oh well, I am constantly unclean so I might as well start having intercourse with my menstruating wife!"

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Do we then keep the entire commanded passage, including putting the women outside during the week of their cycle?

Lev 15:19 If a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days.
Nu 5:2 Command the children of Israel, that they put out of the camp every leper, and every one that hath an issue, and whosoever is defiled by the dead:

Is the camp our house or are we all living “outside the camp”?

If we are all living outside the camp why are we trying to live by the commandments that were given to those living inside the camp?

If we knowingly “come in contact with uncleanness everyday unknowingly” why don’t we prevent that so we would not become unclean? Because we know we live outside the camp and outside the camp it is not required to remain this type of unclean.

1Co 5:9-10 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with immoral men; not at all meaning the immoral of this world, or the greedy and robbers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.

We cannot “go out of the world” so it is impossible to live outside the camp like it would be inside the camp.

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Originally posted by John Cordaro:
Missy wrote;

My statement was not directed at your beliefs. I simply took the issue to an extreme to make a point.

Shalom,
John

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Oh..okay. Thank you for the clarification.

Here it is:

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Originally posted by Dave52:
Do we then keep the entire commanded passage, including putting the women outside during the week of their cycle?

Lev 15:19 If a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days.
Nu 5:2 Command the children of Israel, that they put out of the camp every leper, and every one that hath an issue, and whosoever is defiled by the dead:

Is the camp our house or are we all living “outside the camp”?

If we are all living outside the camp why are we trying to live by the commandments that were given to those living inside the camp?

If we knowingly “come in contact with uncleanness everyday unknowingly” why don’t we prevent that so we would not become unclean? Because we know we live outside the camp and outside the camp it is not required to remain this type of unclean.

1Co 5:9-10 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with immoral men; not at all meaning the immoral of this world, or the greedy and robbers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.

We cannot “go out of the world” so it is impossible to live outside the camp like it would be inside the camp.

These commandments were for inside the camp and to impose them on those outside the camp is a yoke which neither we or our children are able to bear.

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Dave,

A lot of my understanding on this subject has come from you. I remember another time this subject was discussed, and your input helped me a lot.

Dear John,

I do not have sexual relationships with anyone since I am single but if I had a wife I would not have relationships with her during her menstration and I see no reason to want to touch a dead body even though I would clarify that I have not lost someone very close to me in my immediate family and both my parents and all my siblings are alive so I do not intend to touch them after death but greif has a way of changing your mind. Or if they died at home I might have to assist in removing them from the residence. Where would I get the asses of a red heifer if I did desire to be ritually clean in this manner?

On the other hand I do not think a woman should stay home from the holy convocation during menstration because it has nothing to do with making my Holy Spirit temple unclean any more that I believe a man who has an involuntiry emission in the night after bathing should stay away either. Or if as happened recently with the pastor here in Rockport Texas would I worry about going to convocation with someone's relatives who recently died and they no doubt toched him. We do not meet in the temple or tabernacle of Yahueh or within the camp spoken of as Dave52 so aptly pointed out so I do not think the law applies to us until that tabernacle or temple is rebuilt when Messiah returns if I understadn prophesy correctly then He will settle the matter once and for all times.

If you wish for you and your wife to seperate from your local congregation during these times I don't have a problem with that and I would ask my wife if I had one to let you know when she is unclean as I would also if I was unclean if we met with you or your family on a weekly or even at a feast or had touched a dead body of a loved one. Please do not impose your personal interpretations and conviction on others though.

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Dauid ben Yacob

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Originally posted by Dave52:

If we are all living outside the camp why are we trying to live by the commandments that were given to those living inside the camp?

If we knowingly “come in contact with uncleanness everyday unknowingly” why don’t we prevent that so we would not become unclean? Because we know we live outside the camp and outside the camp it is not required to remain this type of unclean.

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I disagree with your "without the camp" analogy for several reasons.

1) You base your belief on an obscure passage (Heb.13:11-13) for which there are many varying views of its meaning.

2) Heb.13:11-13 is dealing with sacrifice outside the camp, not the laws of uncleanness.

3) In Moses' day, the "camp" was the confines where the children of Israel dwelt, in the midst of which was the tabernacle. If Yahshua suffered "without the gate" and that is equivalent to "without the camp", then Jerusalem was the camp. Yet, all of Israel, even those living in the farthest reaches of Israel (the settlements of Dan and Asher) were to obey the laws of uncleanness, not just those "within the camp".

4) In Num.19:1-7, after performing the requirements of the red heifer outside the camp (vs.3) the priest was to wash his clothes and flesh and then come back into the camp and remain unclean until even. He was unclean within the camp. See Rabbinic note below.

5) The concept that since we are dwelling "without the camp", therefore we are not obligated to obey the laws of uncleanness is based merely on a man-made analogy, not on Scripture.

Num.5:2 mentions three types of people that were put out of the camp; lepers, anyone with an issue, and whoever touched a dead body.

According to the Rabbis, lepers were excluded from the whole camp. Those with issues were excluded from the sanctuary proper and the Levite encampment around the sanctuary. Those who had contact with a dead body were only excluded from the Sanctuary proper. (This latter ruling is most likely why the priest was permitted back in the camp after dealing with the red heifer. He would have remained in the Levite encampment until clean).

Are we permitted to touch dead bodies today? I would say no. For the most part, whenever possible, we are to avoid such touching. Are we to touch lepers whenever we so choose today? I would say no, except under certain circumstances such as laying on of hands for healing. Why, then, is it permissible to touch someone with an issue?

Also, notice that it is only those with direct defilement that are put out, not those that touched the ones directly defiled. They remained in the camp unless I'm missing something.

Shalom,
John

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Originally posted by dauid_ben_yacov:

Where would I get the ashes of a red heifer if I did desire to be ritually clean in this manner?

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I believe Yahshua fulfills the red heifer. He fulfills the sin offering as well, but that does not mean we are free to sin whenever we want. Simply because Yahshua fulfills the red heifer does not mean we are free to touch dead bodies whenever we want.

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If you wish for you and your wife to seperate from your local congregation during these times I don't have a problem with that and I would ask my wife if I had one to let you know when she is unclean as I would also if I was unclean if we met with you or your family on a weekly or even at a feast or had touched a dead body of a loved one. Please do not impose your personal interpretations and conviction on others though.

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Your approach is noble and I would do the same for those who hold those beliefs, however, we do not separate from brethren at those times. We simply try to avoid touching others when we are unclean.

Also, I am not imposing my belief on others. I am simply stating what I believe. You are all adults here and are free to choose what to believe. What authority do I have to impose anything?

Shalom,
John