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Scripture Discussion Forum Passover in 2005 is when? (Page 3)
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Author | Topic: Passover in 2005 is when? |
Sojourners Posts: 1112 |
posted 03-16-2005 03:18 PM
Shalom all, I came across this site today...if you scroll down there are links complete with photo's of the barley at this time. http://steve.bruns.com/abib2005.html Blessings in Yahushua, |
david_ben_yacob Posts: 1131 |
posted 03-16-2005 04:11 PM
To ignore Genesis 1:14-18 (seasons-moedim-feast) and the word "tequfah" as used in the Scriptures and take the barley only as a sign of the New Year is in my opinion is a grave error. To then ignore all the documentation in history about how this was done by the nation of Israel before and during the 1st century is compounding that error. I do rejoice however in the fact that there would be plenty of barley to offer as first fruits when the first month does occur according to all these factors from Scripture. I love the fact that the Karaites do give us these eyewitness accounts of the new moon and crops in the land of Israel, but I do not always just buy into all their conclusions in thier studies. I have even read after purchasing it the book Nehemian Gordon wrote on the Hebrew Book of Mattithyahu which came to some very good conclusions after proper exegesus of the text involved. I do not go to them for spiritual understanding but relly on the guidance of the Holy Spirit to teach me and help me understand the Scriptures and thier intended original meaning. I believe the Holy Spirit also brings historical recordings to us to teach us and remind us of things that occured in ancient times. If we ignore Him and go on limited data then it could lead to erroneous conclusions. I just came from South Texas where the signs of early vegitation is coming forth, but then I got to Arkansas where yesterday it was spitting snow.
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Junia Posts: 337 |
posted 03-19-2005 04:31 AM
Thanks for the explanation of Abib posts! I had never seen some of this before & it answered some very old questions for me. Years ago when I was attending COG's I was taught by the head honcho, that the barley was green & it had to be roasted or parched by fire to dry it for the wave sheaf offering. This didn't make sense to me, as I thought , that green plants would not dry but would shrivel up & soft kernels in the pod would boil & become mush. The green barley also didn't make sense to me because of precicely what one of you mentioned . I'm getting tired from reading now after 3 hours, so I can't remember who. That green ears would mean that Yahshua was immature at the time of his cricifixion. Now, thanks to the article by Frank W. Nelte, posted by ana_yncaphil & the abib article by Steve Bruns, posted by Tamar, I see that abib means newly matured. The later start to the new year makes even more sense than it did for me already. I was already leaning to April for Abib & Passover because of what the March Passover would do to FOT. I just really had a worry there with the abib. Now I am more comfortable with my decision. I am, as always, here to learn! Shabbat Shalom! Junia |
leejosepho Posts: 2969 |
posted 03-20-2005 09:12 AM
Greetings to all. I certainly do not claim to understand all of this, but here is some more to consider:
quote: |
EliShua Posts: 37 |
posted 03-20-2005 11:46 AM
quote: david_ben_yacob makes a very good point here. I ran across an excellent, and very short article that addresses just that issue - just how was the new year determined in the days of Yahushua and his disciples. An excerpt reads: ""in tractate Sanhedrin letters are quoted which were sent out by Rabbi Simeon ben Gamaliel and Rabban Gamaliel II. Simeon, son of Gamaliel I and head of the Sanhedrin in the two decades before the destruction of the Temple, wrote as follows. ‘We beg to inform you that the doves are still tender and the lambs are still young, and the grain has not yet ripened. I have considered the matter and thought it advisable to add thirty days to the year" (Finegan 38). From this we can see, even from the Talmud Tractate Sanhedrin, that during the time of Yeshua the presence of ripe grain was the determining factor used to calculate the first of the biblical months." This can be found at: http://www.transitionalstate.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=213 In the service of the Master, EliShua |
EliShua Posts: 37 |
posted 03-20-2005 12:21 PM
Regarding the issue of Equinox vs. Barley to determine the moedim, and a short history of who it is that used the equinoxes in holy day determination, I ran across the following (short) article: http://www.yrm.org/equinox_or_barley.htm In the service of the Master, EliShua |
YermeYah Posts: 448 |
posted 03-20-2005 03:21 PM
Shalom, I was going through my emails, and came across this from Nehemiah Gorden. I do not believe that it has yet been posted on this forum, so I am presenting it for the consideration of those who have not seen it. March 15, 2005 5:38 AM |
Shlomoh Posts: 1321 |
posted 03-20-2005 09:28 PM
quote: Shalom All, As the link in the post above http://steve.bruns.com/abib2005.html showed, there is a "hung jury" on the abib question this year. I suggest you read the information on this link and not be hoodwinked by Nehemia's self exaltation in the matter of "adequate experience." Shlomoh |
leejosepho Posts: 2969 |
posted 03-20-2005 11:26 PM
quote: Shalom, EliShua. Thank you for that excerpt, and please know I do not argue any "position" on this or any matter. Rather, I continue trying to sort things out ... and now I have come across this (as referenced in the article you had linked): “And the flax and the barley were smitten, for the barley was in the head and the flax was in bud. But the wheat and the spelt were not smitten, for they were late crops. And Mosheh went out of the city from Pharaoh and spread out his hands ...” (Exodus 9:31-33). Does that report from Scripture not contradict this: "'... the grain has not yet ripened ...' ... during the time of Yeshua the presence of ripe grain was the determining factor used to calculate the first of the biblical months"? ... Ah. I just now see that maybe it does not ... |
Rivkah Posts: 197 |
posted 03-21-2005 02:13 AM
How was Abib counted during the time of Yeshua? To find the answer to how our mentor would have kept this crucial month, we must look into the biblical record of priestly service at the Temple. The most important item that the Temple priests needed for Passover was ripe barley for the offering of the Omer. This offering is commanded in Leviticus 23:5-10. The offering was to begin when the Israelites harvested the first produce in the land. The priest was to make this offering on the day after the Shabbat (Lev. 23:11). The comments made in this excerpt are not historically supported. It is stated that, "The priest was to make this offering on the day after the Shabbat (Lev. 23:11). This was an important issue to the Israelite during the time of the 2nd Temple. The day after the Sabbath when this first wave offering was presented began the counting of the Omer" There is no historical records that the omer was ever brought as a wave offering on the day after the Shabbat. On the other hand there is historical documentation that the omer was brought on the day (Nisan 16) after the yearly Sabbath of Pesach (Nisan 15). At that time, the Temple was controlled by the Hasmonean Sadducees which followed the calendar of the Perushim and Sanhedrin. There were only a sub-group of the Sadducees that held opposing views from the Perushim - the group known as Beitutim (house of sin) or as commonly referred to as 'Boethusians.' Historical documents records the omer wave-offering was always brought on Nisan 16 each year (as does Sefer Yohoshua) and there is absoulutely no evidence of any Temple observance apart from the observance of the Perushim. Josephus states very clearly that during the Second Temple period the omer was brought on Nisan 16 "On the second day of unleavened bread, which is the sixteenth day of the month, they first partake of the fruits of the earth, for before that day they do not touch them" (Ant. III. X. 5). The incorrectness of the Sadducees observances is culminated in the words of Yshua, who said that Sadducees did not know the Scriptures (Matt. 22:29). Rivkah |
One of Messiah's sheep Posts: 101 |
posted 03-21-2005 02:47 AM
greetings, my understanding is that Y'hoshua made the ultimate sacrifice on Passover that was held on Nisan 14, 33 one sheep [This message has been edited by One of Messiah's sheep (edited 03-21-2005).] |
david_ben_yacob Posts: 1131 |
posted 03-21-2005 04:23 PM
Dear EliShua, I don't think your posting of the article from YRM is benifitial to determining the truth. With all due respect for YRM, They paganize everyone that does not agree with them on the vernal equinox. I can find pagan references to the name of Yahueh being placed on idols but does this mean that I would lend merit to such things. Genesis 1:14-18 speaks of something long before any of the idolators polutted anything! I also know YATI published and gave out that the equinox is later than the actual vernal equinox taken at the equator. According to what I know this is not true because equal day and equal night actually occur about the 17th of March in the Northern hemishphere. I will say I am not an astronomer and could be wrong on this but from all the Farmer's Almanacs I have looked at this is the case. If anyone reading this has objective data that the equal day and equal night in Israel would occur later than March 20 than please show me since I live only a few miles from the show me state of Missouri I have been wrong and will probably be wrong again. I am just trying to prove all things and hold fast to that which is good like the noble Bereans. I am convinced that this is not Abib even according to the ripening of the barley. I also do not believe it is just having returned from South Texas to Northern Arkansas. In south Texas the vegetation is in an early stage of growth and it is very wet, and chilly at night as in Israel. Here in Northern Arkansas it is chilly and cold. I do believe the reports from others that this barley is in a region by a roadside where micro environmental factors lead to a early maturing of one field. I don't really trust the method Nehemiah Gordon used after hearing from this witness from the COG 7th Day. I don't understand why he rushed to report this one field before examining all the fields in Isreal either. South Texas near Corpus Christi is on the gulf and much like the land of Israel in their weather in regards to latitude so this does influence my thinking about what has been discussed. I will admit I am biased because I believe the barley harvest will in general coincide with the new moon on or after tequfah i.e. the vernal equinox in this case based upon all objective data I have reveiwed. The fall equinox also will not line up with the early dates some observe for the Feast of Tabernacles. The Scriptural reference in Exodus 34 tells us that it should be the end of the year or turn of the year is tequfah and definately refers to the fall equinox. There are 60 different varieties of barley in the Middle East some early and some late so how are we to know when Abib is based solely on this information? I want to objectively look at these things and one person has told me there is a web site that shows that the new moon nearest to equinox lines up with Abib for celebrating the feast or that there were years that have been documented in the 1st century and before where Israel kept the Passover by a new moon before the vernal equinox. I am searching for this information and it anyone reading this post knows where it is at please show me. All the information from Philo and Josephus I have seen shows that the feast was always a on or after the equinox new moon. ------------------ [This message has been edited by david_ben_yacob (edited 03-21-2005).] |
Shlomoh Posts: 1321 |
posted 03-21-2005 10:42 PM
quote:
The equinox used in the calculations for the traditional calendar is the old Roman equinox on March 25, which is now a few days after the actual equinox due to calendar changes. It is the same as X-Mass originally being on the winter solstice on December 25 but now being a few days later than the actual solstice. Of course March 12 is still nearer to March 25 than April 10 is, but in the tradional calendar the molad (conjunction) is what they go by, not the postponements. Accordingly, April 8 is closer to March 25 than March 10 is, and that is why the traditonal calendar went with the later date this year. The same is true of the Samaritan calendar, which goes by the conjunction after the March 25 equinox date. This is why they were a month later than everybody else last year. I agree that we have a "hung jury" on the question of abib ripeness this year. After Nehemiah's fiasco with proclaiming the seventh new moon last year from Jerusalem with only one witness, I think that he has an agenda to push. I too would like to see the proof that the first month was determined by new moons that fell before the equinox in the second temple period. All the evidence I have ever seen shows an on or after the equinox calculation. This is the only type of calendar that can work in the diasporia where people are cut off from news from the holy land, besides the traditional calendar. Later, Shlomoh |
Sojourners Posts: 1112 |
posted 03-23-2005 12:55 AM
Shalom all, I am learning along with you all, and I came across the term "GNOMON" From one site I found this information: http://www.cbl.com.au/~bga/godcal.htm#ABIB So I did a google about "gnomon" history, and found: http://www.beaglesoft.com/maintimehistory.htm#Using%20the%20Sun I appears that they had their own way of determing time back then, Thanks, [This message has been edited by Sojourners (edited 03-23-2005).] |
Follower, Sar Shalom Posts: 265 |
posted 03-23-2005 09:23 PM
Isayah 2:3-- ...and He will teach us of His Ways, and we will walk in His paths: because OUT OF ZION will come forth the Law, and the word of Yahweh FROM Y'RUSALEM. According to the ripening of barley found in the Jerusalem and Mt. Zion area, which month is ABIB? If the law is to come forth out of Zion, it appears that we should be looking for "green ears" around the Mount Zion temple area. The ripening of barley varies dramatically according to location. Have a blessed memorial service and joyous feast, no matter which month (civil Mar. or April) you are observing it in... Shalom! [This message has been edited by Follower, Sar Shalom (edited 03-23-2005).] |
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