This discussion is a continuation on the question that Lee had on what exactly is meant by "Masorah of Har Sinai." The following comes from an introduction to one of the Talmud Reference Guides I once read.

"Divine revelation is a supreme objective value, for the word of YHWH is is the expression of absolute truth. Thus, all study and scrutiny of problems must be guided by this revelation - the certain source of absolute knowledge.

Each generation received knowledge of divine revelation and passed it on to the next. Some things were written down, and others remained oral tradition. Certain things were exceedingly hard to explain either orally or in writing and had to be taken as axiomatic. The sum of one generations knowledge of revelation is known as the Torah "teaching" of that generation, and its transmission to the following generation is the well known "Shalsheleth ha-Qabbalah" --"Chain of tradition." Earlier generations, closer in time to the initial revelation, obviously possessed more intimate and fuller knowledge of it. That is why their opinions are given greater weight."

In 2nd Timothy 2:15 Mori Sha'ul (Paul) notes to Timothy to rightly divide the word of truth. So the question becomes how was Timothy to understand this? That is to say, what does it mean to rightly divide the word of truth. What this means for me, and others, is that Mori Sha'ul was speaking of an understood and proven method of understanding scripture. That is not to say that YHWH does not reveal new things to us, or unfolds things previously hidden, but it is to say this is not a matter of people just shooting off the hip and and making stuff up to fit a theological need.

One prime example (John 3) is when Yeshua met with Nikdimon (Nidodemos) and they spoke on the issue of being Nolad me-Hhadash (born anew). Notice that in verse 10 Yeshua asks Nikdimon, "You are a Moreh (teacher) of Yisrael and you don't have knowledge of this?" Yeshua seems to be pointing out that because Nikdimon was a Manhig (Teacher of the ways) and a Moreh (teacher) that these things should have already been known to him. If we look in the Masorah we see that sages from before and after Yeshua also understand this concept of being "born anew" as a process when someone takes on a new station in life towards YHWH and the sins of their previous life/lifestyle are forgiven. I.e. like being given a new slate. These concepts can also be found in the Talmud (Yevamot 48b, 62a and Genesis Rabbah 39:11). So it was not like Yeshua showed up and just dazzled people with "new things" that nobody had heard before. He was making clear the intent of Torah, bringing to light spiritual truths that had already known in the past but were not clear in the 2nd Temple period, clearing the path way to correct relationship with YHWH, breaking through wrong interpretations of Torah and Masorah, and uplifting what needed to be uplifted.

This is a start. Let me know if I need to make things more clear.

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Eloah immakhem,

I think that you are quite clear in your explanations. This is the same thing that has been said on the "True Sabbath" Forum in attempts to refute the recent rise of "lunar sabbath" theology. History and Scripture are friends and it is too bad that so many are throwing out what has been passed on to us in favor of private interpretations.

Later,

Still sifting and pondering ...

First, please allow me to bring these certain and inter-related thoughts over from the "Definition of a Sacred-Namer" thread:

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Originally there posted by EliYah:
What we need to do as believers is remember that we don't need to have a monopoly on truth to be saved, but we all should have a right attitude toward it. Our Fathers have inherited lies and we are here, trying to discern what is right. We can condemn each other in the process, or we can love and understand one another in spite of the fact that we are all at different levels in understanding and have different backgrounds.

... we are all one in Yahushua and we all have chosen to repent, be baptized and follow Him just as He followed the Torah. We are all one body ...

We are all called to love and serve one another as Yahushua did. This transcends all culture and background ...

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Originally posted by leejosepho:
Please know it is not my intent to here take [anyone] to task. Rather, I am first reviewing my own perspective concerning our inter-cultural relationships within "the community of faith" ... and ... I am hoping to get back to the matter of the Har Sinai connection [I believe we must (learn to) share].

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Originally posted there by Shimson bar-Tzadoq:
... [it] is important to look at ... the statement that is found in Yeshayahu 8:20. The Hebrew of this says, "LeTorah weliTh`udah im-lo yomru kadavar hazeh asher eyn-lo shahhar." A loose translation of this is, "To the Torah and the Te'udah if they do not speak/say like this matter then there is no dawn/light in them." Now it is important to note that the statement of this "they" who are either saying or speaking according to this verse must match up with both the Torah and the Te'udah.

Of course Torah here means the "Teaching" which came from Har Sinai (Mount Sinai) and the Te'udah is a feminane noun from the shoresh (root) Ayin-Waw-Daleth with the meaning of testimony, custom, etc. This of course as Yeshayahu puts both in contrast to each other, so based on the Hebrew one would have to assume that both the Torah and the Te'udah were things that could be verified against each other in order for one to determine if a matter had any shahhar (dawn/light) in it. In this instance both the Torah and the Te'udah are inseparable since at the time Yeshayahu prophesied, the Torah was in Hebrew, and the Kohanim, Lewi'im (Levites), and the Zeqanim (Elders) taught all of Yisrael the Te'udah.

...

In terms of the connection to the culture that spawned the Tanakh and the New Testament. Lets delve into that a bit. Every person who descends physically from Ya`aqov (Jacob) in one way or the other is a Benei Yisrael (Descendent of Yisrael), and the Shelihhim (the Apostles) even stated that those who are not Benei Yisrael, but believe, are grafted in. No disputing that. Yet, this begs the question: Just because I am a Benei Yisrael, does that mean that I have a valid connection to the "CULTURE" from which the Tanakh and the New Testament came from?

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Originally posted there by Mountain Jew:
... If [we all] only understood the meaning of the word "name". A name is not just a word made up of letters. NAME in the scriptures often is referring to REPUTATION, CHARACTER, and AUTHORITY, and to honour and glorify means to REFLECT that reputation, character and authority ...
To bring honour and glory to his name is in our conduct, not just our words ...

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... and if (with any necessary apology to EliYah) I might attempt to summarize the above:

... we [who have chosen to repent, be baptized and follow (Yahushua) just as He followed the Torah] are all one in (Him) ...

This transcends all culture and background ...

If I may, I would like to redress a little of our previous discussion, and as I hope I have already made clear to everyone, I do that without taking you or anyone to task. Rather, my desire here is to address and to attempt to help resolve any “gaps” or “conflicts” that might at times stand in the way of the transcendence EliYah has mentioned.

You have written: “Pray to YHWH for the unity of your culture, learn Hebrew/Aramaic/Ge'ez/Greek, investigate the archeology, history, cultures, travel to the places mentioned and do your own research. Trust me as I can tell you from experience do these things and your culture won't be the same.”

Acknowledging your experiential origin and context for those previously-shared thoughts, might we agree they could also lead to something like this:

"Let us all pray to YHWH for the unity of our cultures ...”?

While both assuming no objection on your part and recognizing as helpful the methodology you have suggested – “... learn ... investigate ... travel ... research ...” – I continue.

In the previous thread, you had written, "... I don't personally believe the world must become Jewish in order to have a relationship with YHWH. Yet ...”

Having heard and accepted your answer to my previous question about your “Yet” at the end of that statement, I would share that as one who comes from a denominational, non-Jewish background, that “Yet” brings to mind the “tension” I personally face between “some things that are simply opinions and some things that have facts behind them." And in that light, I would further share that it is truly a blessing whenever I have an opportunity to consider “the facts” as known by others more knowledgeable and experienced in relation to the Masorah of Har Sinai.

In the previous thread, I had asked if you might elaborate on this statement you had made:

"I don't believe [the "Word Study Method" of Exegesis] to be an accurate method of understanding a language like Hebrew or Aramaic, but if that is the Exegesis method [certain people] have before them, that is not my concern."

It now seems I had first misunderstood you there, for as part of you response, you told of an occasion when a friend was asked to read from the Torah scroll while you “served as the person who was supposed to watch/listen to the reading and make sure he was pronouncing the Hebrew correctly.” It is a blessing to me, and, I believe, a blessing to all whenever another among us truly and humbly embraces/accepts that type of “concern” or “responsibility” as his or her own. Overall, then, may it be a prayer common among us all that we might yet grow into “speaking the same language” as learned from the Sinai experience.

On the matter of each of us having "a relationship with YHWH" and the seeming differences between them, you have written, “There is ‘TRUTH’ and the way that we all walk in this truth can easily be different, and the way we express this truth can be different. Yet, YHWH and Yeshua gave some guidelines which none of us IF we are following THE TRUTH should be outside of. Yet, we are not the 'Borg' like on Star Trek. We are individuals.”

Although I believe I have understood you there, I still have some questions about this you have said:

"My personal view is that any non-Benei Yisrael without any connection to the Te'udah of Har Sinai, which Yeshayahu 8:20 speaks of has the freedom to come to their own conclusions on certain things of practice. The issue here is that when Yeshayahu 8:20 says Torah and Te'udah, that means something to those who read it in Hebrew, so that is the audience that it speaks to."

Q: Is it truly possible to be a “non-Benei Yisrael” without having at least some kind of connection to the Te'udah of Har Sinai?

It is not my intent to here imply anything on your part, but to question my own belief that at least some kind of connection is “spiritually inherent” for any child of our Father, even if a particular child (or group of children) actually has yet to become aware of it. In my own case, it is through exchanges such as these with others such as yourself that I seem to become both more aware of and in line with that “connection” first contracted at Sinai.

Shalom.

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Originally posted by leejosepho:

Although I believe I have understood you there, I still have some questions about this you have said:

"My personal view is that any non-Benei Yisrael without any connection to the Te'udah of Har Sinai, which Yeshayahu 8:20 speaks of has the freedom to come to their own conclusions on certain things of practice. The issue here is that when Yeshayahu 8:20 says Torah and Te'udah, that means something to those who read it in Hebrew, so that is the audience that it speaks to."

Q: Is it truly possible to be a “non-Benei Yisrael” without having at least some kind of connection to the Te'udah of Har Sinai?

It is not my intent to here imply anything on your part, but to question my own belief that at least some kind of connection is “spiritually inherent” for any child of our Father, even if a particular child (or group of children) actually has yet to become aware of it. In my own case, it is through exchanges such as these with others such as yourself that I seem to become both more aware of and in line with that “connection” first contracted at Sinai.

Shalom.

[This message has been edited by leejosepho (edited 12-20-2004).]

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Greetings Lee,

I will try to get to each of your points as soon as I can. I am flying to Israel tomorrow so I may not get everything. I think this that you have listed above is a good place to start.

To answer your question I think that any TRUTH seeker eventually ends up at the point where in order for them to truly lay hold the TRUTH, at some point they end up have to wrestle with the issue of what is the Te'udah of Har Sinai. I personally believe that there are some issues that are not exactly faith critical for a non-Benei Yisrael to have to wade through because the amount of responsibility they are called to is not the same as someone who is a Benei Yisrael. In another thread we dealt with the issue of the disignations that the are given in the Torah for a non-Benei Yisrael.

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Originally posted by Yo'el:
May you have a safe and blessed journey up to the land, Shimson.

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Barukh YHWH, and thank you Yo'el. Peace be to you and your household.

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Eloah immakhem,

Sensing a need to do so, I would like to try to make clear my own desire here, and to share certain thoughts behind that desire ... and I believe all of that is consistent with this you have written:

“I think that any TRUTH seeker eventually ends up at the point where in order for them to truly lay hold the TRUTH, at some point they end up have to wrestle with the issue of what is the Te'udah of Har Sinai.”

At least, that is part of my own experience even at this moment.

As excerpted from a previous thread:

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Originally posted elsewhere by Shimson bar-Tzadoq:
Masorah of Har Sinai is a term used to describe an understanding or understandings, which have been (Masorah) delivered from the time that YHWH revealed Himself on Har (Mount) Sinai.

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Originally posted elsewhere by Yo'el:
Is there any way I can become directly connected to the Masorah of Har Sinai?

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Considering our fellow’s question in yet another way:

"Is there any way someone can become directly connected to 'an understanding or understandings, which have been (Masorah) delivered from the time that YHWH revealed Himself on Har (Mount) Sinai'?"

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Originally posted elsewhere by Yo'el:
Conversion?

"...a change of heart, or dispositions, in which the enmity of the heart to [YHWH] and his law and the obstinacy of the will are subdued, and are succeeded by supreme love to [Him] and his moral government, and a reformation of life."

"To turn from a bad life to a good one; to change the heart and moral character, from enmity to [YHWH] and from vicious habits, to love of [Him] and to a holy life."

"In a more strict sense, one who is turned from sin to holiness."

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So then, and at least as I hear it, the question before us is this:

How can one have "a change of heart, or dispositions, in which the enmity of the heart to [YHWH] and his law and the obstinacy of the will are subdued, and are succeeded by supreme love to [Him] and his moral government, and a reformation of life” ... ultimately becoming “directly connected to the Masorah/Te'udah of Har Sinai”?

Personally, that overall process certainly does include academic study, but only in a secondary way.

And to you, Yo’el: Please let me know if I have in any way either missed or misrepresented your original question!

I just want to clarify the reasoning behind my original question. In the thread 'When Does a Scriptural "Day" Begin/End?', the following statement was made. (it may help to go back and read all this in context)

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Originally posted by Shimson Bar-Tzadoq:
With all that being said my belief that people not directly connected with the revelation or Masorah of Har Sinai can choose to understand certain things the way they want.

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I do not want to understand things in any way other than as given at Sinai. Even if it might be true that certain people are allowed to choose to understand certain things the way they want, I only want to understand anything in the way the One who created us wants everything understood.

So then, how might that be accomplished?

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MASORAH: The system of critical notes on the external form of the Biblical text. This system of notes represents the literary labors of innumerable scholars, of which the beginning falls probably in pre-Maccabean times and the end reaches to the year 1425.

Etymology of the Name: The name "Masorah" occurs in many forms, the etymology, pronunciation, and genetic connection of which are much-mooted points. The term is taken from Ezek. xx. 37 and means originally "fetter."
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Fetter (Webster)
Any thing that confines or restrains from motion; to impose restraints on.
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The fixation of the text was correctly considered to be in the nature of a fetter upon its exposition.

When, in course of time, the Masorah had become a traditional discipline, the term became connected with the verb ("to hand down"), and was given the meaning of "tradition."

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In order to get back to your original line of questions I have restarted this thread.

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Eloah immakhem,

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Originally posted by Shimson bar-Tzadoq:
Hello Lee and StephYahnie,

In order to get back to your original line of questions I have restarted this thread.

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Greetings, Shimson, and thank you.