http://www.eliyah.com/forum2/Forum10/HTML/001584-5.html

This discussion was unrelated to the thread so I have moved the questions to a new thread. This thread is dealing with the idea of "primtive roots" and how some on this forum use them. I am inquiring for an explaination of this methodology so I can better answer Wannabes intended question(s), not my interpretation of his questions):

Shalom Wannabe,

Please, call me Joshua :)

============================
Purpose for my questions*
============================
(*Do not spend time responding to this section, please, time permitting, answer the questions asked the day before, listed at the end for convenience)

You said: "Greetings Acerta, now we're getting somewhere, thanks for the post, I'll take notes.
You mentioned words/names from HYH and YS' What did you mean by "from"? "

"Form" can be a term related to the appearance/structure of a word; "form" can also refer in a vague sense the permutation of a word. HYTH and HYYTM are "forms" of HYH. I used the term "forms" because we are discussing structure of these two words in relation to another word.

I do not want to restrict your explanation to my thought processes or definition of words OR direct/strict you, thus I am trying to use "vague" descriptive methods versus specific ones. If I had said, "What stem(s) and verbal conjugation(s) are HYTH and HYYTM and how do they function in Hebrew grammatically and syntactically" I have imposed on your certain limitations I am trying to avoid. I would be assuming in your method that "primitive roots" have stems and conjugations. That even begs the question: "conjugation"--what is this? Are we using a lay term, and English term, or the loose term Hebrew grammarians use to describe to beginning students the peculiar system of Hebrew verbal inflections? Also, when the words "grammar" and "syntax" are used I am making an assumption that form relates to function and or meaning.

None of this may be true of what you are presenting, therefore the colorless descript word "form" is used to YOU can tell ME what you intend to express.

To ask the question another way: what relationship, if any, do words like HYTH and HYYTM have to do with HYH. Please explain this "relationship" so I can get a bearing on your understanding of the concepts you apply.

I see you have also asked another question, but please, lets slow down--we need to take things one step at a time.

Like I said, I need to understand where you are coming from and what you mean by the words you use. I will delve into your question once you answer my three questions above. Until then lets not ask any further questions. Until we are communication on a "wavelength" that allows us to share defined ideas, without assuming what the other person meant, we cannot accomplish anything. Please, do not take this as answering a question with a question--this is not my intent. My purpose is ensure we are discussing the same concepts and meanings when we use specific words. I believe I know what Strong's meant by "primitive" BUT I am not sure you are intending the same thing as my understanding of Strong's. Therefore I have politely asked you to explain (1) what you mean and (2) what Strong's means in your understanding. You put a lot of weight on "primitive" roots, so I believe you should fully express this concept. Please do not assume we do (or should) understand what you mean. Your system is a new concept to me, so before I make some judgments and assessments I want to hear you out fairly. Also, since you have not learned Hebrew formally I think it is unfair for either of us to assume we place the same values, constructs, relationships, and restrictions on the words we use.

If we desire to move forward in any form of profitable discussion I think we need to direct our attention to the questions I asked yesterday, namely:

============================
Questions for Clarifications
============================

(1) Questions about Primitive Roots:

What do you understand to be a "primitive root"?

How would you define this?

Could you give me some examples of "primitive roots"?

If there is a difference, how does a "primitive root" differ from a "root" or "lexical root"?

Can you give me some examples of non-primitive roots (if they exist)?

How does the function of the language relate to a "primitive root"?

Are these nouns, verbs, or other?

Is there prefixing, suffixing, conjugation, and so forth?

Does a root undergo inflection and other changes in the varying stems/binyanim?

Any other information clarifying what a primitive root is and is not would be helpful. This will allow me to understand how you frame this question and what your terms mean so I can accurately respond to the question you asked (and not just my interpretation of your question).

(2) Strong's use of "Primitive Roots":

What does Strong's mean, in your estimation, when he says "primitive root"?

Does he contrast this with other roots?

Does it have any relation to "unused roots"?

Do other standard Hebrew resources use the phrase primitive roots?

If so, do they mean the same thing as Strong's?

(3) Demonstration of the "Primitive Roots" principle:

Could you demonstrate the method you would apply primitive roots to the below passages so I can get a better scope and understanding of the principle you are conveying:

Ex 6:3 W’R’ ’L-’BRHM ’L-YTsChQ W’L-Y‘QB B’L ŠDY WŠMY YHWH L’ NWD‘TY LHM

1Sa 14:45 WY’MR H‘M ’L-Š’WL HYWNTN YMWT ’ŠR ‘SH HYŠW‘H HGDWLH HZ’T BYSR’L ChLYLH Ch-YHWH ’M-YPL MS‘RT R’ŠW ’RTsH KY-‘M-’LHYM ‘SH HYWM HZH WYPDW H‘M ’T-YWNTN WL’-MT

Isa 49:8 KH ’MR YHWH B‘T RTsWN ‘NYTYK WBYWM YŠW‘H ‘ZRTYK W’TsRK W’TNK LBRYT ‘M LHQYM ’RTs LHNChYL NChLWT SMMWT

Isa 61:10 SWS ’SYS BYHWH TGL NPŠY B’LHY KY HLBYŠNY BGDY-YŠ‘ M‘YL TsDQH Y‘MNY KChTN YKHN P’R WKKLH T‘DH KLY

Also, how do forms like WYWŠ‘N from YŠ‘ and HYTH and HYYTM from HYH relate to the idea of primitive roots?

Is there a system on how words are used?

Are the forms in the Bible the ones that were penned and/or read before the exile to Babylon?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Acert93:

(Note: This subject is from another thread, you can view this thread here:

http://www.eliyah.com/forum2/Forum10/HTML/001584-5.html

This discussion was unrelated to the thread so I have moved the questions to a new thread. This thread is dealing with the idea of "primtive roots" and how some on this forum use them. I am inquiring for an explaination of this methodology so I can better answer Wannabes intended question(s), not my interpretation of his questions):

Shalom Wannabe,

Please, call me Joshua

============================
Purpose for my questions*
============================
(*Do not spend time responding to this section, please, time permitting, answer the questions asked the day before, listed at the end for convenience)

You said: [b]"Greetings Acerta, now we're getting somewhere, thanks for the post, I'll take notes.
You mentioned words/names from HYH and YS' What did you mean by "from"? "

"Form" can be a term related to the appearance/structure of a word; "form" can also refer in a vague sense the permutation of a word. HYTH and HYYTM are "forms" of HYH. I used the term "forms" because we are discussing structure of these two words in relation to another word.

I do not want to restrict your explanation to my thought processes or definition of words OR direct/strict you, thus I am trying to use "vague" descriptive methods versus specific ones. If I had said, "What stem(s) and verbal conjugation(s) are HYTH and HYYTM and how do they function in Hebrew grammatically and syntactically" I have imposed on your certain limitations I am trying to avoid. I would be assuming in your method that "primitive roots" have stems and conjugations. That even begs the question: "conjugation"--what is this? Are we using a lay term, and English term, or the loose term Hebrew grammarians use to describe to beginning students the peculiar system of Hebrew verbal inflections? Also, when the words "grammar" and "syntax" are used I am making an assumption that form relates to function and or meaning.

None of this may be true of what you are presenting, therefore the colorless descript word "form" is used to YOU can tell ME what you intend to express.

To ask the question another way: what relationship, if any, do words like HYTH and HYYTM have to do with HYH. Please explain this "relationship" so I can get a bearing on your understanding of the concepts you apply.

I see you have also asked another question, but please, lets slow down--we need to take things one step at a time.

Like I said, I need to understand where you are coming from and what you mean by the words you use. I will delve into your question once you answer my three questions above. Until then lets not ask any further questions. Until we are communication on a "wavelength" that allows us to share defined ideas, without assuming what the other person meant, we cannot accomplish anything. Please, do not take this as answering a question with a question--this is not my intent. My purpose is ensure we are discussing the same concepts and meanings when we use specific words. I believe I know what Strong's meant by "primitive" BUT I am not sure you are intending the same thing as my understanding of Strong's. Therefore I have politely asked you to explain (1) what you mean and (2) what Strong's means in your understanding. You put a lot of weight on "primitive" roots, so I believe you should fully express this concept. Please do not assume we do (or should) understand what you mean. Your system is a new concept to me, so before I make some judgments and assessments I want to hear you out fairly. Also, since you have not learned Hebrew formally I think it is unfair for either of us to assume we place the same values, constructs, relationships, and restrictions on the words we use.

If we desire to move forward in any form of profitable discussion I think we need to direct our attention to the questions I asked yesterday, namely:

============================
Questions for Clarifications
============================

(1) Questions about Primitive Roots:

What do you understand to be a "primitive root"?

How would you define this?

Could you give me some examples of "primitive roots"?

If there is a difference, how does a "primitive root" differ from a "root" or "lexical root"?

Can you give me some examples of non-primitive roots (if they exist)?

How does the function of the language relate to a "primitive root"?

Are these nouns, verbs, or other?

Is there prefixing, suffixing, conjugation, and so forth?

Does a root undergo inflection and other changes in the varying stems/binyanim?

Any other information clarifying what a primitive root is and is not would be helpful. This will allow me to understand how you frame this question and what your terms mean so I can accurately respond to the question you asked (and not just my interpretation of your question).

(2) Strong's use of "Primitive Roots":

What does Strong's mean, in your estimation, when he says "primitive root"?

Does he contrast this with other roots?

Does it have any relation to "unused roots"?

Do other standard Hebrew resources use the phrase primitive roots?

If so, do they mean the same thing as Strong's?

(3) Demonstration of the "Primitive Roots" principle:

Could you demonstrate the method you would apply primitive roots to the below passages so I can get a better scope and understanding of the principle you are conveying:

Ex 6:3 W’R’ ’L-’BRHM ’L-YTsChQ W’L-Y‘QB B’L ŠDY WŠMY YHWH L’ NWD‘TY LHM

1Sa 14:45 WY’MR H‘M ’L-Š’WL HYWNTN YMWT ’ŠR ‘SH HYŠW‘H HGDWLH HZ’T BYSR’L ChLYLH Ch-YHWH ’M-YPL MS‘RT R’ŠW ’RTsH KY-‘M-’LHYM ‘SH HYWM HZH WYPDW H‘M ’T-YWNTN WL’-MT

Isa 49:8 KH ’MR YHWH B‘T RTsWN ‘NYTYK WBYWM YŠW‘H ‘ZRTYK W’TsRK W’TNK LBRYT ‘M LHQYM ’RTs LHNChYL NChLWT SMMWT

Isa 61:10 SWS ’SYS BYHWH TGL NPŠY B’LHY KY HLBYŠNY BGDY-YŠ‘ M‘YL TsDQH Y‘MNY KChTN YKHN P’R WKKLH T‘DH KLY

Also, how do forms like WYWŠ‘N from YŠ‘ and HYTH and HYYTM from HYH relate to the idea of primitive roots?

Is there a system on how words are used?

Are the forms in the Bible the ones that were penned and/or read before the exile to Babylon?

Shalom - Joshua[/B]

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I am confused by your quote of my entire post with no reply (I did not see any at least... quoting an entire post seems to mess up the formatting code). I have noticed in some of your posts you insert your own comments into sections where you use the "quotes" code--this can be confusing. It is helpful to make a clear distinction. Just a suggestion :)

Anyhow, I hope I did not confuse you on my comment about not responding to a section... that was only intended for the first part where I clarified why I was asking the question and that I would answer your question but that I needed clarification of your terms and use first. By asking more questions you were taking the discussion to a place where you original question would be ignored. Niether of would want that :)

When you get a chance to answer the questions below the area marked "Questions for Clarifications" I can answer you question concerning primitive roots and the name.

Im still trying to figure out how to answer questions without quoting the whole post.
I have very little patience with a computer and Im disgusted because I can't get past the point of "pecking" with my fingers.

Bear with me.

I hope you are having a peaceful Shabbat. Per quoting people, this is what I usually do (everyone has their own practice):

When I quote I frequently use the "bold" command around what they said to keep it separate from my words and I try to annotate who said what. So, if I was quoting your body paragraph I copy it (highlight and then right click and select copy) and then I would paste it, like thus:

================================================
Im still trying to figure out how to answer questions without quoting the whole post. I have very little patience with a computer and Im disgusted because I can't get past the point of "pecking" with my fingers.
================================================

Next I will note who said it:

================================================
Wannabe said: Im still trying to figure out how to answer questions without quoting the whole post. I have very little patience with a computer and Im disgusted because I can't get past the point of "pecking" with my fingers.
================================================

The final step is I BOLD their text using the brackets, bracket 'b' before the text and bracket '/b' after (replace the ' with brackets [ and ]), which does such:

================================================
Wannabe said: Im still trying to figure out how to answer questions without quoting the whole post. I have very little patience with a computer and Im disgusted because I can't get past the point of "pecking" with my fingers.
================================================

With the person's text now distinguished and noted, I then go forward and leave comments. The equal sign ( = ) like I used above can also be helpful.

I frequently do a reply in Notepad because I hate it when a form malfunctions, this also allows me to work with a reply easier. Feel free to number my questions, like (1a) and (1b) and so no, like:

(1) Questions about Primitive Roots:
(1a) What do you understand to be a "primitive root"?

Your answer...

(1b) How would you define this?

Your answer...

(1c) Could you give me some examples of "primitive roots"?

Your answer... and so forth. (Do not worry about putting yours in italics! I was just using that as an example)

I know I asked a lot of questions and there is no pressing need for you to answer them immediately. Also, even if we ultimately disagree, by outlining your approach you can use this thread in the future as a reference for people to understand your methodology and understanding.

I will be more than happy to answer your question(s) once I understand where you are coming from and what you mean by certain words and phrases. A helpful (and affordable) book that can assist you in understanding my perception of the most basic aspects of Hebrew grammar in relation to form and construction of Hebrew words is, "Building Your Biblical Hebrew Vocabulary" by George Landes. Specifically, pp. 7-39 is an excellent precursory introduction to the fundamental aspects of word construction. This is a very light summary and in no way is a substite for learning grammar and syntax properly, yet provides a neat (yet simplistic) overview of how Hebrew words are formed. With this suggestion I must provide a warning: Little to no emphasis is placed on the differences, nuances, specifics, and uses of most forms and how different constructions relate--this is meant only as an introduction and brief survey of forms and how they are constructed in Hebrew with meager and sparse comments on function and role in the language. It is by no means exhaustive and is not a replacement for learning Hebrew grammar.

I hope today's Shabbat continues to be a joy to you and your home. Shalom - Joshua

Shabboth Shalom

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Eloah immakhem,

Can you also provide us with the text you are reading from? Todah rabbah.

------------------
Eloah immakhem,