It is interesting to me how Gary Sem says:

quote:

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And so I cannot allow "Jews" to be my observers in Jerusalem to
determine the calendar! On the other hand we ("lost" Israelites
who migrated and are found across Europe as so-called "gentiles")
do not have our own observers there specifically trying to restore
the original calendar.

Note that most of Israel of all 12 tribes went into Assyrian captivity,
(2 Kings 18:11-13... to 19:30, only a few left)BECAUSE WE REJECTED GOD
and thus we became pagans and established a different Sabbath and Roman
calendar and holidays... such as Mithra's day Dec 25, which the early
"church" made into Christ's birthday so we could keep such holidays!

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Do you believe in Anglo-Israelism or replacement theology ? Because that seems to be the tone of your post... You say.. "we rejected God" .. who is we ? If you are Gentile by birth then automatically you aren't part of the 12 tribes of Israel. One can become grafted INTO Israel, if they adopt the ways of Yahweh. But original Israel cannot be replaced!

If you are trying to imply that Anglo-saxon or English speaking people are actually of the ten lost tribes you are mistaken. There is absolutely no biblical proof to suggest such a thing. Gentiles do not replace the Hebrew people of Israel. Never have and never will.

True Israel has not adopted a pagan calendar.. Christianity is made up of gentiles and they came up with their own pagan calendar that many use today to keep pagan holidays. True Israel cannot be blamed for that.

The original way used by Israel was to use the first visible sliver of the cresent moon. Whatever Christianity has done is their own doing..it doesn't have anything to do with Israel.

Shalom,
Missy

quote:

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Originally posted by Missy:

If you are trying to imply that Anglo-saxon or English speaking people are actually of the ten lost tribes you are mistaken. There is absolutely no biblical proof to suggest such a thing. Gentiles do not replace the Hebrew people of Israel. Never have and never will.

True Israel has not adopted a pagan calendar.. Christianity is made up of gentiles and they came up with their own pagan calendar that many use today to keep pagan holidays. True Israel cannot be blamed for that.

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If you don't (yet) understand the identity of the House of Israel (as opposed to the House of Judah), it's only because you evidently haven't seriously looked into it. There are numerous Scriptures that mention Judah AND Israel as 2 separate entities, including the "New Covenant" verses - Jer.31:31 & Heb.8:8, which means they are still separate today.

The words "Jew" and "Gentile" are among the most misunderstood modern words.
"Gentile" simply means "nation"; context must determine which nation.
Most people think that "Jew" means all of Israel. It actually means the House of Judah, but most modern "Jews" are by religion only, and are descendents of Ashkenaz (Japhethites).

Who are the "nation" (Heb. "goy"="gentile") AND "company of nations" ("goyim") mentioned in Gen.35:11?

Who/where are the "nation" ("am") and "multidude of nations" ("goyim") that were prophesied to come from Ephraim and Manasseh in Gen.48:19?

Why are the Anglo-Saxon-Celtic peoples called Caucasians? Hint: locate the Caucasus Mtns on a map, then read where the House of Israel was transported to when the Assyrians conquered.

quote:

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Originally posted by chuckbaldwin:

The words "Jew" and "Gentile" are among the most misunderstood modern words.
"Gentile" simply means "nation"; context must determine which nation.
Most people think that "Jew" means all of Israel. It actually means the House of Judah, but most modern "Jews" are by religion only, and are descendents of Ashkenaz (Japhethites).

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Shalom,

Ashkenazi Jews are called Ashkenazi because they lived in Germany, which is called Ashkenaz in Hebrew. Spain is called Sephard in Hebrew and Jews from Spain are called Sephardi Jews. Because they were expelled from Spain in 1492 and scattered all over the Mediterranian and the Middle East, all non-Askenazi Jews are sometimes referred to as "Sephardi," although this is a misnomer. There are actually more "Sephardi" Jews in the world than Ashkenazi Jews.

If conversion nullifies a person's claim to Jewish heritage, then every generation since Joshua is disqualified because Israel always mingled with the other nations around them. Even Judah's children were half Cananite, and Joseph's son's were half Egyptian. When the Khazar empire disolved, the Jews there migrated into eastern Europe and intermarried with the Askenazi Jewish communities that were already there.

quote:

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Originally posted by chuckbaldwin:
Missy,
If i weren't leaving for the Feast shortly, i would start a new thread to discuss this. I only have time to comment briefly.If you don't (yet) understand the identity of the House of Israel (as opposed to the House of Judah), it's only because you evidently haven't seriously looked into it. There are numerous Scriptures that mention Judah AND Israel as 2 separate entities, including the "New Covenant" verses - Jer.31:31 & Heb.8:8, which means they are still separate today.

The words "Jew" and "Gentile" are among the most misunderstood modern words.
"Gentile" simply means "nation"; context must determine which nation.
Most people think that "Jew" means all of Israel. It actually means the House of Judah, but most modern "Jews" are by religion only, and are descendents of Ashkenaz (Japhethites).

Who are the "nation" (Heb. "goy"="gentile") AND "company of nations" ("goyim") mentioned in Gen.35:11?

Who/where are the "nation" ("am") and "multidude of nations" ("goyim") that were prophesied to come from Ephraim and Manasseh in Gen.48:19?

Why are the Anglo-Saxon-Celtic peoples called Caucasians? Hint: locate the Caucasus Mtns on a map, then read where the House of Israel was transported to when the Assyrians conquered.
[/B]

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Hi Chuck..

I don't mean any disrespect but simply because I don't agree with your assessment of who is Judah and who is Israel doesn't mean I haven't seriously looked in to it. As you say there are many scriptures to say that Judah and Israel were separate entities... I will say there are also many scriptures and examples in the bible to state they were very much comingled. (We can get into it when you get back.. I will be around.. Yahweh willing)

I do understand that Gentile means nation. I am aware of that. And whether most people think "Jew" means all of Israel has nothing to do with me. I am very aware of the tribe of Judah. But I am also aware that Anglo-Israelism supporters believe in a lot of made up and surmised information.

It is a common arguement amoung Anglo-Israelism supporters to try to use the false theory that that the House of Judah always means nation of Jews and that the House of Israel means the ten lost tribes that migrated to Europe and became identified as Great Britian and America. That theory also maintains that present day Jews are the tribe of Judah and that it's under some divine curse by Yahweh and shouldn't be identified as Israel or as people of Him, but rather white English speaking people. All this does is breed anti-semitism and that is not of Yahweh. Frankly, it's made up nonsense that isn't supported Biblically.

I already am aware that many Anglo Israelism supporters TRY to use 2 Kings 17:18-23 but a close look at these verses show that the northern kingdom simply ceased to be an independent nation. Only the southern kingdom was left. It also says that Israel was carried away out of their land unto Assyria to this day. TO ASSYRIA, that has nothing to do with white English speaking people. That verse is speaking of that time, not the present time of today. 2 Kings 17:9 suggests that the northern kingdom had been broken up and punished for their sins.. there were none left to constitue a northern kingdom not that all these people just ceased to exist.

FURTHERMORE: Not all of the people of the northern tribes were deported to Assyria. I could go all into that but this post would last for a long time..and it's already long. But I do find it amusing how Anglo Israelism supporters clearly IGNORE I and II Chronicles that frankly disproves their legends and myths.

The theory that those deported changed their identity and became the ancestors of and to the Saxon people that later invaded England is white supremacy legend and myth. There is no Biblical evidence nor historical evidence to support such a theory. Most of the people remained in Assyria and were absorbed into that culture according to a lot of scholars. So it's obvious there is not one reliable direct source.

British Israelism also touts the idea that the stone under the Queen of England's coronation chair is the very "pillar stone of Jacob" which was first transported by Jacob, and finally by Jeremiah to the British Isles, via Egypt. Now where is that in the Scriptures ??? If the theory was correct then when the English stone was analyzed in The Marson Report, it would not have said that the stone was a calcareous type of red sandstone of SCOTTISH origin. I find that laughable..

Other ridiculous claims are outrageous linguistic claims. Here are some : Since the tribe of Dan supposedly migrated cross Europe on its way to the British Isles, the following names are linked to origins in that tribal name: London (LonDAN), Danube (DANube), Danzig (DANzig), Dneiper (DANeiper), Dneister (DANeister), Donegal (DANegal), Dardanelles (DarDANelles), Sweden (SweDAN), and Denmark (DANmark). Why other tribes have not left similar marks is not explained. They also claim that by removing the letter "I" from the Jewish name Isaac, they derive the word saac, which combined with the son produces the word saacson, which is equated with the Saxson, meaning Anglo-Saxon or British.

In another argument, it is noted that Berith is the Hebrew word for covenant, and Ish is the Hebrew word for man. By combining the two words, the word Berith-ish (Covenant Man) is formed , providing the basis for the word British.

The name Isaac is a Latin word, or form, of the Hebrew name Yitschak. Isaac is not even a proper Hebrew name, so the linguistic exercise becomes is nonsensical. The attempt to make the word Saxon out of the name Yitschak becomes impossible. The same contrivances are used in the "Berith" "Ish" combination to form the word British. The letters used are from the English alphabet to form an English word. If one uses the Hebrew alphabet, then the combination again becomes nonsense. Only the sounds bear a resemblance.

I find all of that laughable... and I can HARDLY support any idea of Anglo or British Israelism.. It cracks me up how the Anglo man loves to try to steal what doesn't belong to him. He has done it to just about every nation under the sun. The Hebrew people are just another check on that list.

Some believe that the exiled tribes, who were, according to the Second Book of Kings, transported to the region of Media in what is now northwestern Iran, most likely simply assimilated with the population of the area, losing any special sense of Israelite identity.

There is even genetic testing being done to representatives of at least two groups -- the Lemba in Africa, and the the B'nei Menashe in India -- in attempts to verify claims of descendancy from the "lost ten tribes". So far, there is nothing conclusive, though in the case of the Lemba, there is a definite link to Levite Hebrew ancestry, specifically Kohen.

Frankly, there is not concrete evidence on what exactly happened to the ten so called "lost" tribes of Israel. There are many theories. Even Assyrian chronicles of the time claim that only a small number of Israelites were deported. So all of it's really just conjecture. But the idea of British Israelism/Anglo Israelism is the most far fetched... LOL!

The bottom line is spiritual Israel is the key.. The things of Yahweh are spiritual, not fleshly. So whatever one's blood line is or isn't is simply irrelevant. What matters is one's true alliegence to Yahweh and Yeshua rather than the Adversary and his minions. If one does what is right before Yahweh, he/she won't have to worry about what racial catergory is best to associate with..associate with Yahweh and his ways that is the best option.

Enjoy your feasting.. We have already celebrated.

Shalom,
Missy

quote:

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Originally posted by Shlomoh:
Shalom,

Ashkenazi Jews are called Ashkenazi because they lived in Germany, which is called Ashkenaz in Hebrew. Spain is called Sephard in Hebrew and Jews from Spain are called Sephardi Jews. Because they were expelled from Spain in 1492 and scattered all over the Mediterranian and the Middle East, all non-Askenazi Jews are sometimes referred to as "Sephardi," although this is a misnomer. There are actually more "Sephardi" Jews in the world than Ashkenazi Jews.

If conversion nullifies a person's claim to Jewish heritage, then every generation since Joshua is disqualified because Israel always mingled with the other nations around them. Even Judah's children were half Cananite, and Joseph's son's were half Egyptian. When the Khazar empire disolved, the Jews there migrated into eastern Europe and intermarried with the Askenazi Jewish communities that were already there.

Shlomoh

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Shlomoh,

Good points! But how did you find out that there are actually more Sephardi Jews in the world than Ashkenazi Jews ? From what I understood that Ashkenazi Jews account for approximately 80 percent of world Jews. Even though in the 11th century they only made up 3 percent of the world's Jewish population...

I am not saying you are incorrect.. I just wondered where you got the info so I could read about it.

I would also like to add this:

Ashkenazi Jews are Jews descended from the Jewish communities of Germany, Poland, Austria, and Eastern Europe mostly established between the 10th and 19th centuries. In historical times and through the mid-20th Century, Ashkenazi Jews usually spoke Yiddish or Slavic languages such as the (now extinct) Knaanic, and developed a distinct culture and liturgy influenced by their native countries.

Other Jewish ethnic groups include Mizrahi Jews (a term overlapping Sephardi, but emphasizing North African and Middle Eastern rather than Spanish history, and including the Maghrebim); Teimanim (Yemenite and Omani Jews); and such smaller groups as the Gruzim and Juhurim from the Caucasus, the Bene Israel, Bnei Menashe, Cochin and Telugu Jews of India, the Romaniotes of Greece, the Italkim (Bené Roma) of Italy, various African Jews (most notably the Beta Israel or Ethiopian Jews), the Bukharan Jews of Central Asia, and the Persian Jews of Iran.

Sephardim are a subgroup of Jews, generally defined in contrast to Ashkenazim and/or Mizrahim. In the strictest sense, a Sephardi is a Jew original to the Iberian Peninsula (Spain and Portugal) or whose ancestors were either among the Jews expelled during the Spanish Inquisition incited by the Catholic Monarchs Ferdinand and Isabella and codified in the Alhambra decree (1492), or among the Jews expelled by king Manuel I of Portugal in 1497 and subsequent Portuguese Inquisition.

In the vernacular of modern-day Israel, the word Sephardi has also come to include the immigrant Jewish communities that were indigenous to the various countries of the Near East, most notably those of the Yemen, Iraq and Iran who are now resident in Israel, and have no ancestral ties to Spain or Portugal. Jews from these Near Eastern communities are also sometimes called "Oriental Jews" or the Hebrew equivalent Mizrahim, some of whom were once also referred to as "Arab Jews", a phrase that is rarely used today.

Shalom,
Missy

Second though I do feel the truth lies somewhere between the two extreme positions of the Jews of today represent all of Israel and British Israelism.

Third I believe because of the diasporia and mingling of Yahudah and Israel with all the nations predicted by the Prophet Yeremiahu (31:27-34) that there is most likely not a person on earth today that does not have some of the blood from the twelve tribes of Israel in thier DNA and veins.

A) Think of all the men of Yahudah that have married into the nations and the Rabbis have rejected thier claims to be Yahudi even though the lineage is determined through the father. I know the tradition of having the lineage determined through the mother was to cause Yahudi men to marry Yahudi women but this is one of those fences the Rabbis put around the Torah that Yahushua the Messiah came to tear down.

B) Think of all the Yahudi women that have raised thier children in thier father's faith or even came to faith in Messiah themselves that the Yahudi Rabbis do not consider Jews anymore!

C) Only a small minority of those of the ten Northern tribes among the nations have been connected back through conversion to being Yahudim and lost thier true identity among the nations. It is interesting that Apostle Shaul/Paul quotes from passages from the Tanach/OT(Romans 9-11) which in their context refer to these that have lost thier identities among the nations if read in proper context. I know Paul often taught the obscure meaning of a passage but nevertheless this cannot negate the fact He used these passages in identifying the literal meaning of these passages in thier proper context as spoken by the prophets Hoshea and Isaiah. This is part of the mystery of the Evangel.

D) Yachanon shows that when Yahushua left the Yahudim he went into the city of "Ephraim" which is the only place the name is used in the Brit ha Chodesha/ New Testament. Wonder how the obscrure meaning of this passage could be parabolic in nature? This shows two facts:

A) There was a small minority of Ephraim i.e. the ten Northern tribes dwelling in the land of Israel in the time of Yahushua

B) That this is a parable as to what Yahushua cleary procalimed in other times recorded in passage what His mission was to accomplish.

Forth, Because of the truth of number three there is no place for "racism" in the teachings about the two houses of Israel in the Body of the Messiah. Namely Jewish domination and superiority which excludes non-Jews from leadership positions in the Body of Messiah or vice versa , British Israelism with her offsprings Seperatism, White Supremacy, Arianism, or Black Israelism with her close offspring of Black Domination and Superiority, namely Black Hebrewism that excludes all others from thier leadership. I am of course refering to these groups that accept Yahushua of Nazereth as the Messiah even though these conditions exist in those that reject the kingship of Yahushua also because all these veiws promote carnality and pride rather than the servent leadership fo the Messiah.

Yeremiah 27Behold, the days come, saith Yahueh, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Yahudah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.
28And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith Yahueh.
29In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
30But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
31Behold, the days come, saith Yahueh, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Yahudah:
32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith Yahueh:
33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith Yahueh, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their Elohe', and they shall be my people.
34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know Yahueh: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith Yahueh: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35Thus saith Yahueh, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; Yahueh of hosts is his name:
36If those ordinances depart from before me, saith Yahueh, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37Thus saith Yahueh; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith Yahueh.

Yachanon 11:54 Yahushua therefore walked no more openly among the Yahudim; but went thence unto a country near to the wilderness, into a city called Ephraim, and there continued with his disciples.

Matthew 10:5These twelve Yahushua sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the nations, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 15:22And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Adon, thou son of Dauid; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Adon, help me.

Yachanon 7:35 Then said the Yahudim among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the nations, and teach the nations?

(Consider the context of this passage in our upcoming feast season! \o/HalleluYah!\o/)

In closing I would encourage all of you to abandon these theories and believe what the Word of Yahueh says instead.

"In the vernacular of modern-day Israel, the word Sephardi has also come to include the immigrant Jewish communities that were indigenous to the various countries of the Near East, most notably those of the Yemen, Iraq and Iran who are now resident in Israel, and have no ancestral ties to Spain or Portugal. Jews from these Near Eastern communities are also sometimes called "Oriental Jews" or the Hebrew equivalent Mizrahim, some of whom were once also referred to as "Arab Jews", a phrase that is rarely used today."

I concure and add that we should not forget how many Yahudim also fled Spain in 1492 some being Messianic or "Morrano" Yahudim for fear of being disposesed and killed during the coming Inquisition. Although the Rabbis will not recognize them as Jews today unless they have rejected the Messiah.

There is a Book in Spanish that shows the Yahudi sir names of many in the New World who fled in fear for thier lives. Mexico was founded only a few years later in 1513 and has a town named Zaragoza which was in Spain a center place for Yahudim and the sirname of prominent Jews. There is a lady at the congregation at B'nai Maccabim in the northern suberbs of Chicago that gave me a copy of the list of sir names of Spanish origen that are quite common in the New World from Mexico southward through out Central and South America.