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Originally posted by HisWay:
Stephen, shalom

Q.
If the New moon - conjuction falls on the 1st of february at 10:50 am, would this make the 1st of February or the 2nd of Febuary - day 1?

blessings - Wayne

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IN MY OPINION The moon must pass the point of conjunction before sunrise in order for the day to be considered the first day of the month. Not to get off subject, but I must say this to clarify my position. The day begins at sunrise.

Stephen

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Originally posted by BJ:
yes this needs further study and i hope we can all come together to iron this out. Because there is some revelations comming out about the reliability of all todays calenders.

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Hi BJ,

Don't get your hopes up. I can pretty much guarentee that we will not get this ironed out. We can present our cases, but we will never get everyone to agree on any calender issue. It will take direct intervention from Yahweh to settle the issue. It is good to discuss it though. Maybe some people will learn things that they never knew before. I am very interested in calender issues and have learned most of what I currently believe from discussions such as this and then by taking what I have learned and researching it further.

I just don't believe that we will ever come to a concensus through our own study and research. It is going to take intervention on Yahweh's part. But with that said, we should each do our best to learn and obey the truth.

Stephen

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Originally posted by BJ:
stephen brother the scriptures say That YAH out of his speaking gave the children a day from EVE to EVE. How can one change this?

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Shalom BJ,

Yahweh never defined a "day" as being from eve to eve. The two times he mentions observing something from eve to eve is the day of Attonment and the Festival of Unlevend bread. (I am assuming these are what you are refering to) In both cases He is describing when to eat, or not to eat, and not defining what a day, or even a sabbath day is. Let's not get on the subject of what a day is on this thread so as to not distract from the subject of New Moon. There are a few threads about the day in the not to distant past that will answer some of your questions and probably create some more. We should continue any discussions of what a day is on a different thread.

Stephen

Those who object over clouds to the lunar timekeeping are not familiar with the topic. Nor are they qualified and reliable for doctrine.

Also, there are no 'leftover days' nor weeks lasting eight or nine days, which is another uninformed, silly assertion. There are four seven day weeks in each month followed by a one or two day renewal while waiting for the first visible crescent. Dark days are irrelevent toward the count of Moedim as is plainly stated in Ps. 104:19 see the other thread for the apologetic.
Y.S.

Psalm 104:19 is certainly not talking about any cloud cover or dark day.

Psa 104:19 He appointed6213 the moon3394 for seasons4150: the sun8121 knoweth3045 his going down3996. What does this scripture mean to you?

Your quote "There are four seven day weeks in each month followed by a one or two day renewal while waiting for the first visible crescent. "

Are you saying that the one or two extra days, are not counted into the week?

Here is the apologetic as I have written it so far. Much more can, and probably will, be said. Hmmm.

Some things to consider:

Ps. 104:19 He (YHWH) created the Moon (Yareach) for Appointed Times (Moedim)...

Ps.89:35-37 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me. It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah

This, ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES, also includes the first mentioned MOED which is Sabbath. My translation of these verses is very literal and shows that the 'called out' are none other than Israelites. READ IT IN THE HEBREW.

Vayikra (Leviticus) 23:2-4 Speak unto the sons of Israel, and say unto them of the appointed times of YHWH (moedim) that you shall call out set apart assemblies. Even these are My appointed times (moedim): Six days shall be done work: and in day the seventh is a Sabbath of sabbathing: a called out, set apart assembly; no work shall be done in the Sabbath of YHWH in all your sabbathings. These are the appointed times of YHWH (moedim), even called-out, set apart assemblies, that you shall call out to them in appointed times (moedei).

Yochanan 10:35 "If he called them Elohim, unto whom the word of came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Psalm 82:6 I have said, "Ye are Elohim; and all of you are sons of Elyon."

2nd Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of YHWH Elohim, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of Elohim may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

If the Scriptures are inspired (they are), as did Yeshua, one must credit all of the above, without exception.

Yeshua quoted from the Psalms as being authoritative for doctrine.

A true scriptural apologetic for a perpetual seven day count has never been given because one does not exist.

The apostle Paul said precisely in Romans that there would not be an apologetic that would refute the witness of the creation.

(ALL-CAPS show the Sabbath truth below).

Romans 1:18-20 (literal translation) For the wrath of Elohim is revealed from heaven against all SABBATH-rejection and unrighteousness of men who suppress THE TRUTH in unrighteousness; because that which may be known of YHWH Elohim is manifest in them; for Elohim has shewed it unto them, for THE INVISIBLE THINGS of Him (THE TRUE SABBATH) from the creation of the world ARE CLEARLY SEEN, being UNDERSTOOD BY THE THINGS THAT ARE MADE (the sun, the moon and the stars; Ber. 1:14-19), even his eternal power and divine nature; so that they are without excuse. (Gr. anapologetes; i.e. they lack any true scriptural support)

Exodus 16 reaffirms the lunar timekeeping of the TRUE SABBATH, day 15 being the first day of the week. This means the sabbaths were the 21st and 28th and not the 22nd and 29th as alleged above.

This passage of Scripture extended is Moshe's diary of the events of that same year and anyone who attempts to exegete it must be accurate in the details. The Sabbath of YHWH revealed to Moshe and the Isrealites is based upon the observation of the moon, a faithful witness in the sky.

Days when the moon is impossible to view from the earth (specifically, the renewal days) because the earth itself blocks the viewer and the dark side of the moon faces the earth, are not counted towards 'moedim' due to Psalm 104:19; and the scriptures cannot be broken.

In Bereishit (Genesis) 1 and 2, the days of creation are concluded with the phrase, "And evening and morning were the ____ day." HOWEVER, this phrase is not found at the conclusion of the TRUE SABBATH, which allows for the renewal days when the moon is not possible to be viewed from earth.

Bereishit (Genesis) 2:2-3 (literal translation) And Elohim finished in day the seventh His work that He had done; and He sabbathed in day the seventh from all His work that He had done. And blessed Elohim et-day the seventh, and set it apart to Himself, for in sabbathing from all His work which created Elohim was He done.

The primary disagreement with the lunar timekeeping comes from those who feel economically threatened by it. Through their dishonesty, they never admit that their real motivation for opposing the true Sabbath and the Scriptures which verify it is economic.

Amos 8:5 Saying, "When will the new moon be gone, that we may sell corn? And the Sabbath, that we may set forth wheat?" Making the ephah small and the shekel great, and falsifying the balances by deceit.

They feel they would come in conflict with their employers over it, but those who OBSERVE (not 'calculate') YHWH's true Sabbath are not concerned with the ways of the world.

1st Timothy 6:1-9 Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, that the Name YHWH and His doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort. If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Judge Yeshua the Messiah, and to the doctrine which is according to SABBATH observance; he is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, who suppose economic gain to be SABBATH observance: from such withdraw thyself; but great gain is Sabbath observance with contentment, for we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. And having food and raiment let us be therewith content, but they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.

These argue for the right to be the tail and not the head as true Torah observance indicates Israel would become if they kept all of YHWH's commandments.

Devarim (Deuteronomy) 28:13 "And YHWH shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath; if that thou hearken unto the commandments of YHWH thy Elohim, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them:"

Devarim 8:15 "But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of YHWH thy Elohim, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:"

Devarim 28:44 "He shall lend to thee, and thou shalt not lend to him: he shall be the head, and thou shalt be the tail."

The whole world wonders after the image of the beast will be shown to mean they have covenanted with haSatan through observance of a perpetual seven day count whose names are derived from pagan deities. Seven in Hebrew is a number which indicates covenant, oath, or vow.

The current presumption of the timing of Sabbath is nothing more than traditon which makes the commandment of YHWH (#4) of none effect.

Matthew 15:6 "... And honour not his father or his mother (#5), 'He shall be free.' Thus have ye made the commandment of YHWH Elohim of none effect by your tradition."

If a person breaks one of the terms of the covenant of Israel, also known as the Ten Commandments, we are taught that hw breaks them all, as follows:

Ya'akov (James) 2:8-13 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well; but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the Torah as transgressors. For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, "Do not commit adultery ," (#7) also said, "Do not murder." (#6) Now if you do not commit adultery (#7), but you do murder (#6), you have become a transgressor of the Torah. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of freedom, for judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Has not the commandment against adultery been made of none effect through serial divorce and remarriage? And that prohibiting murder by the proliferation of abortion? What makes people think that tradition has not made the Fourth Commandment of none effect by changing the timing? or the Third Commandment through forbidding the pronunciation of the Name? or the Second by making movies of the life of Messiah for that matter?

Those who break the Scriptures with their bad exegesis, are like those who break the bones of the Passover Lamb.

Yochanan 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled,
"A bone of him shall not be broken".

Of the 613 commandments the rabbis have counted, they have said that 365 of them are postive commandments and 248 are negative (in the sense of, Thou shalt not ...). They have also counted 248 bones in the human body thus they associate the violation of the negative commandments of the Torah to breaking bones.

Shemot (Exodus) 12:46 In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof.

Bamidbar (Numbers) 9:12 They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances of the passover they shall keep it.

Yacov Seedeater

If someone can explain to me how to measure degrees, I would appreciate it.

Not as viewable from earth, which is impossible btw as it is the renewal and not the full moon which is also a conjunction.

Secondly, conjunction is a moment in time and not a day but less than an hour. Those who calculate conjunctions do not follow the Torah, they depend on their intellect and not eyewitness testimony.

The moon is not a light, it is just a reflector of light. The moon doesnt go away.

While it is good that you acknowledge what everyone already knows, that the 'lesser light' has none of its own, your last statement is not accurate as the moon disappears FROM VIEW either 2 and half or 3 and a half days each month.

I beleive that when sighting the cresent your sighting the already new moon. At the time of conjunction is when the moon is rebuilding, You can look at the hebrew meanings. The moment after it passes the straight line of the earth, moon and sun, thats when you start counting.

You could not be more mistaken about how the Scriptures indicate to OBSERVE and NOT to CALCULATE. It is quite clear that you have opted for calculation which is necessarily dependant upon intellect and wealth, rather than on observation which is available to all on equal basis. Perhaps you do not have a heart to appreciate this difference, but it is extremely important nevertheless.

Cresent sightings are very difficult, take the full moon for example. How long is it full? From the moment it is full, it immediatly starts to empty, or start fading. And the conjunction happens at the same time everywhere on earth. The only way to use the moon for a marker is to go by degrees. And the conjuntion is at 0 degrees. Every 24hrs the moon moves approximatly 13 degrees, you can do the math. Illuminations can be deceiving.

It is quite obvious you have not thought how this was done in ancient Israel when the Torah was given. Neither does it appear that you have considered how simple desert dwelling men without technology ascertained when the month began. Perhaps this is of no concern to you. Eyewitness testimony of the first visible crescent was received and tested at the council in Jerusalem from ancient times. For further reading on how this was done, please consult Talmud Tractate Rosh haShanah Seder Moedim. The ancients knew nothing of modern methods though the rabbis of fourth century Babylon had quite elaborate methods of establishing a calendar based on the Hillel postponements. Theirs' too was a calculation and they also opposed observation, but from the beginning, it was not so.

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Originally posted by Stephen:
IN MY OPINION The moon must pass the point of conjunction before sunrise in order for the day to be considered the first day of the month. Not to get off subject, but I must say this to clarify my position. The day begins at sunrise.

Stephen

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Stephen, thanks for the reply.
Here's a question I bought forth some time back and answered by Toma:

Q. Quote me -
I use moon tool to help in determining when the new moon starts, I was wondering, If the new moon (just an example) starts at 7.36pm on a Wednesday and sunset on that Wednesday is 8.30pm would that mean that all of Wednesday would be day 1 on the calendar?
- unquote

A. Quote, Toma -
Shalom!
If the answer was yes, and it happened on Memorial (zikrown:H2146) of Clamor (teruw'ah:H8643), Commonly called the Feast of Trumpets you would have missed it! Therefore, the answer must be no.
Toma (Arkie)
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Now, this seems to be in line with what you are saying (except the time the day starts - morn/night) correct? - does it make sense in your findings/reasoning?
And would it still be the same even if the new moon was 2 minutes after sunset or sunrise in your understandings?

Johnnie, thanks for the reply also, however I tend to agree to the answers of Toma and Stephen (but my convictions as to when day starts are - sunset).

Katy - I hope you don`t mind me asking the questions presented on your thread, if you would prefer me to move on and start another thread, please feel free to tell me :) I don`t want to quide this away from what you have asked.

Shalom and blessings - Wayne

You might want to check out this link.

http://yahweh.com/pages/pw0397/yahshua.shtml

I noticed on another thread that you were raised in Worldwide? Did you mean Worldwide church of God? I used to go there.

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Originally posted by katy:
It's Passover time again and we are studying the moon. Could I get information both ways on which way is correct.

KAty

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Based on my understanding of a day starting at sunrise and the new moon day being the day that follows the conjunction of the moon that occurs before sunrise, I would say that in the scenario you presented that Thurday morning would begin the new moon day.