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Author Topic:   Tallits,Prayer Shawls,Tzits Tzits,and other cool looking stuff
Lionscub_7seals

Posts: 19
Registered: Aug 2002

posted 09-02-2002 06:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lionscub_7seals     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Shalom All

Lately i was looking over the web looking for Tzits Tzits,and prayer shawls, i thought they looked rather cool and desired to find me some,when i came across and article that said wearing such stuff is like being a pharisee.I was rather troubled by it,even though i dont have any of the stuff i was just interested in it because i thought it looked cool and that they carried deep meaning on the spiritual side.

Their reasoning was that the Pharisees tried to observe every little point of the Torah, i guess maybe being overly legalistic or something.

i was under the impression that all of Torah was supposed to be kept if possible though.

Matthew 5:17,18,19,2017"Think not that I am come to destroy the Law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fullfill".
18"For verily I say unto you,Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Law,till all be fulfilled."
19"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments,and shall teach men so shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven,:but whosoever doeth and teacheth the the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
20"For i say unto you that except your righteousness shall eexceed the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees,ye shall in no case enter the kingdom of heaven."

well anyway i would still like to get some even though i was i guess confused by this article that likened commandment keeping to being like a pharisee.

anyway any opinions on the matter would be cool

Daniel 12:3
blessed be and
www.geocities.com/lionscub777_7seals_7eyes/Lions.html
Shalom Chai Olahm

[This message has been edited by Lionscub_7seals (edited 09-02-2002).]

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Lionscub_7seals

Posts: 19
Registered: Aug 2002

posted 09-02-2002 06:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lionscub_7seals     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
here is the article i mentioned
http://www.ynca.com/Mini20%Studies/orthodoxbelievers hmmm broken link

[This message has been edited by Lionscub_7seals (edited 09-02-2002).]

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Lionscub_7seals

Posts: 19
Registered: Aug 2002

posted 09-02-2002 06:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lionscub_7seals     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
For some strange reason unknown to me that link does not seem to work,however it keeps coming up under a google search for Tzits Tzits,go figure

well if you really want to read it it comes up under a search in google under Tzits Tzits

later Daniel 12:3

p.s if you type Tzits Tzits it will be on the first page of results at the bottom of the page close to the very bottom under Yahwehs New Covenant Assembly

[This message has been edited by Lionscub_7seals (edited 09-02-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Lionscub_7seals (edited 09-02-2002).]

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Ahab EliYah-El'Askeni

Posts: 386
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 09-02-2002 08:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ahab EliYah-El'Askeni     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Greetings,

There are only a couple of comments I will make on this.

1) Tzitzit were worn throughout Yisra'eli history by both men, women, P'rushim, Tz'dukim, etc. in Yisra'el. Archeologist have found Tzitzit during digs in Israel and evidence point to a custom with some B'nei Yisra'el who when making oaths would give a lock of hair and a tzitzit.

2) Talits are traditional garments, and they only represent one way of dealing with how the command in the Torah says to put the Tzitzit on the four corners of a beged (garment). A tunic is another way.

3) I personally, haven't seen any archeological evidence that Gentile believers wore them. Not saying that it doesn't exist, but I haven't seen any archeological evidence that Gentiles wore them. Yet, the archeological evidence supports that even the comman man and woman wore Tzitzit. According to MattithYahu 9:20 and 14:36 so did Mashee'akh.

4) There are B'nei Yisra'el in various parts of the Middle East of various Yisra'eli descents that historical have worn Tzitzit on their begedim (garments).

5) Not all P'rushim (Pharisees) were legalistic. The idea that ALL P'rushim were legalistic or even evil is completely false. Some were, but that doesn't mean all of them were. The proof of this is the Beit Hillel (School of Hillel) which had most of the same philosophies as what Mashee'akh taught. Hillel was the grandfather Gamli'el who was Rav Sha'ul's (Paul's) teacher. According to the account of Flavius Yosephus and the accounts of MattithYahu - Yokhanan there were a good number of P'rushim who believed in that was Mashee'akh. Rav Sha'ul (Paul) is just one of many P'rushim that came to believe in Mashee'akh. Mashee'akh even told one Parush he was not far from the Reign.

6) The Tzadukim (Sadduces) who didn't agree with the P'rushim wore Tzitzit and the Karaim (their descendents) who don't agree with Rabbinical tradition wear Tzitzit during the daytime.

7) The command in the Torah to place Tzitzit on the four corners on a beged (garment) was given to set-apart the B'nei Yisra'el (descendents of Yisra'el) and the Gerim (Gentiles who decided to live like B'nei Yisra'el). Archeological digs from Assyria show the King of Yisra'el paying tribute to the Assyrian king, and guess what in the stone releif the King of Yisra'el was wearing Tzitzit. The Assyrian king in the relief is not wearing them.

Of course the whole purpose of placing Tzitzit on a garment was to see the tekhelet (blue) cord and remember , Barukh Sh'mo, and remember to obey the Mitzvoth of the Torah. That is why when Tzitzit are first worn it is a Y'hudi custom to say the following prayer:

Barukh attah 'Eloheynu, Melekh Ha`Olam, 'asher qidshanu b'mitzvothawv v'tzivanu l'hitateph b'tzitzit:

(Translation)
Blessed are You Our 'Elohim, King of the Universe, who sets us apart us with paths of set-apartness and gives us the commands of wrapping ourselves with tzitzit:

Personally, I find it better to read books and study archeology on such subject compared to reading someones web-site. Most of the time these things are written on web-sites with no formal archeological research. They also written relying on other peoples research. Also, becuase most books are written from an Ashenazi view people sometimes think that the customs from Germany and France make up all Yisra'eli custom. The Talit is a halakhah (custom), the Tzitzit is B'midbar (Numbers). The Torah only dictates the wearing of the Tzitzit and where to place, yet how a B'nei Yisra'el does after that is on them. At the same time a good knowledge of Hebrew would also help in seeing what the texts actually say.

As I mentioned earlier I have not seen any text or archeologial evidence that Gentiles wore Tzitzit, so I can't judge in the matter of Gentiles wearing them. Yet, the archeological and written evidence shows that everyday B'nei Yisra'el wore Tzitzit.

I hope this helps.

L'hitra'ot,

------------------
Ahab EliYah-El'Askeni
Sight Beyond Sight http://3n1promo.com/sight/

[This message has been edited by Ahab EliYah-El'Askeni (edited 09-05-2002).]

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Lionscub_7seals

Posts: 19
Registered: Aug 2002

posted 09-02-2002 11:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lionscub_7seals     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
well what would be a good source of reading?

i have noticed contradictory info in websites concerning this issue,so i would like to find a good comprehensive read about this subject and also the issue of kippa's,i would like to study anything related to garments such as tzits tzits,tallits,kippa's etc.I would like to get some of the following especially a tallit but i need to get down into a good study first of all these things before doing so.

Thanx Ahab that helped alot as usual you post good factual info
Later Daniel
blessed be and
Lehitra Ot,Shalom Olahm,Chai Olahm,Barukh Ha Shem
p.s i have learned a little hebrew/ivrit

p.s. Do you have any of these things Ahab Tallits,Tzitszitz,kippas,etc?

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RICHARD7

Posts: 121
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 09-03-2002 12:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for RICHARD7     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lionscub_7seals:
well what would be a good source of reading?

i have noticed contradictory info in websites concerning this issue,so i would like to find a good comprehensive read about this subject and also the issue of kippa's,i would like to study anything related to garments such as tzits tzits,tallits,kippa's etc.I would like to get some of the following especially a tallit but i need to get down into a good study first of all these things before doing so.

Thanx Ahab that helped alot as usual you post good factual info
Later Daniel
blessed be and
Lehitra Ot,Shalom Olahm,Chai Olahm,Barukh Ha Shem
p.s i have learned a little hebrew/ivrit

p.s. Do you have any of these things Ahab Tallits,Tzitszitz,kippas,etc?


B"H!

Shalom; This site may help you
http://israelvisit.co.il/beged-ivri/index.html

In His Love and Truth
Shalom u'vracha
Richard

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Ahab EliYah-El'Askeni

Posts: 386
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 09-03-2002 06:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ahab EliYah-El'Askeni     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lionscub_7seals:
well what would be a good source of reading?

i have noticed contradictory info in websites concerning this issue,so i would like to find a good comprehensive read about this subject and also the issue of kippa's,i would like to study anything related to garments such as tzits tzits,tallits,kippa's etc.I would like to get some of the following especially a tallit but i need to get down into a good study first of all these things before doing so.


Boker tov (good morining),

This is why I would suggest getting Jewish Encyclopias, or any book that explains Jewish customs. Commentaries on the Torah and TaNaKh by Jewish writers also would be good. Commentaries in most cases included information from various ages so you can see how over time certain Mitzvoth and certain halakhot were interpreted over time. Or you could just research the archeological digs that have been taking place in Israel. They do have places where you can volunteer for two weeks to take part in digs and get college credit for it.

I, personally, would not rely on web-sites because anyone regardless of whether they have actually done any research on a matter can put one up. I only read books and archeology where I can see what the person references. I also prefer to search for such things in Hebrew and Aramaic text. In the Hebrew and Aramaic text is mentions several times that people wanted to touch the saphah (fringe, tzitzit) of HaMashee'akh because they fealt they would be healed. Even various Jewish sources record that Mashee'akh wore Tzitzit. Besides He was mostly around P'rushim and His teachings were not that much different than the various P'rushim and Rabbis. The only difference was over CERTAIN interpretations which led to CERTAIN halakhot of Torah that was being promoted by CERTAIN P'rushim.

quote:

Thanx Ahab that helped alot as usual you post good factual info

In any case still check anything I write, I am not above being wrong. (smile)

quote:

p.s. Do you have any of these things Ahab Tallits,Tzitszitz,kippas,etc?

I wear Tzitzit on my clothing everyday during the daylight hours. I wear a Talit when I attend Synagogue. I wear a kofia which is traditional hat from the part of West Africa some of my family come from. It is not a kippa, but is a traditional hat. There is no Torah command that tells an individual who is not the Kohein HaGadol to wear a covering on his head. Yet, it is was/is traditional in countries where it is very hot to wear clothing that in some cases cover most of the head and neck. In the Taureg society or as they are often called "The Blue Men of the Sahara" men wear viels and women do not.

The arguement over whether a kippa is from pagan influence is strictly revolving around the STYLE of most kippa (the little small hats). Because not all Y'hduim were affected by Roman or Greek culture it would impossible to say that the wearing of turbans, kofia, etc. are stemmed from pagans. Some of my ancesters for example were Mali in West Africa in the Songhai empire and it was traditional also because of the heat to wear something over ones head and neck.

The issue over what Rav Sha'ul meant in his letter on covering ones head get complicated. For example some Y'hudim never received Rav Sha'ul's letters. Some Y'hudim in Syria for example received letters from Yokhanan, but didn't receive copies of Rav Sha'ul's letters until the 5th Century. Also, Rav Sha'ul doesn't repeat the same thing in his other letters. Then, also based on the language in which he uses it would seem that he is setting up a halakhot with the the ones who received that particular letter. Once again I have yet to see any archeological evidence that every Qahalei Natz'rim (Natz'rim Community) or Beit K'neset shel haNatz'rim (Synagogue of the Natz'rim) had all of Rav Sha'ul's letters. If someone has archeological of proof of such I have yet to see it.

So bascially as I mentioined before Tzitzit on a beged are Mitzvoth for B'nei Yisra'el and Gerim, talits are halakhah for the Beit K'neset, any kind of hat or head covering is halakhah.

L'hitra'ot,

------------------
Ahab EliYah-El'Askeni
Sight Beyond Sight
http://3n1promo.com/sight/

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Lionscub_7seals

Posts: 19
Registered: Aug 2002

posted 09-03-2002 08:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lionscub_7seals     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
shalom ahab,richard

well i checked out that site it was interesting,it would be cool to send pizza to the I.D.F to ,hehehe

well im looking to buy a good tallit and some tzitszits,i wnat to find a nice wool one though,many places i have seen have rayon, i think wool would seem better,also i dont have a clue how to tie the tzitszits if i bought the strings

i wonder if there are actual stores maybe perhaps in N.Y.C or D.C where i could find them.Where i could actually look and inspect before i buy.

i know sounds picky

what about those hats the muslims wear is it a mitre?

there kind of box like in shape

hard to explain.

Well shalom for now
Daniel
p.s if anybody could remember me in their prayers it would be appreciated im injured with something what i dont know just bad stomach pains

blessed be and

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