posted 11-27-2000 11:58 PM            

When we first met, she introduced herself to me as Marty with the "art" part of her name spoken very quickly and with a soft "r" sound in the middle. So I called her Marty.

Some months later I saw her name printed on an envelope and I asked if her name wasn't "Mary" (spoken with the English pronunciation.) She frowned and stated quite clearly that "Mairey" is not her name. She is "Mahree" (spoken with a Spanish pronunciation, lightly rolling the "r".)

Isn't the name Jesus simply a Greek interpretation of the Hebrew Yud-Hay-Vav-Shin-Hay?

Isn't that much the same distinction as Mattityahu - Matthaias - Matthew or Miryam - Mary?

If King James's translators had went ahead and translated Yud-Hay-Vav-Shin-Hay into English wouldn't they have come up with Joshua as they did in the 'Olde' Testament?

Now, don't get me wrong, I agree that the correct pronunciation of the Name of The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is important. But, are we going too far when we start poo-pooing the use of another language's resonable translation of such names?

I would love to hear from someone who has access to an ancient languages expert. I have a couple of questions such a person might help to answer.

(1) Are there any ancient languages, other than Hebrew, which have only consonants in their written language?

(2) Are thare any ancient languages with silent consonants in their written language compared to spoken?

Are there any accredited experts on ancient Hebrew out there?

Barukot

posted 11-28-2000 01:02 PM         

I am not an expert (not even close), but I am engaged in the serious study of Hebrew. I am enrolled in the "intermediate" Hebrew class at my synagogue (there is currently no advanced class!) and I read and study the Tanakh in Hebrew. So, perhaps my comments will be of use. I do find your questions interesting considering your user name.

First, Messiah's name is either yod-shin-vav-AYIN in late Biblical Hebrew (Nehemiah for example) and Aramaic (Ezra) or yod-hei-vav-shin-(vav)-AYIN in earlier Biblical Hebrew. With regard to the pronunciation of the earlier form, if the accent is on the third syllable, which is reasonable since normally the accent is on the last or less frequently the next to last syllable, then the first syllable cannot take a long vowel. By this I mean, that if the name is pronounced as a SINGLE word with the accent on the "shu" then the first vowel becomes an indistinct neutral vowel. This is represented in the Tiberian Masoretic pointing by a sh'va and results in the pronunciation "Y'hoSHUa". I suspect those who insist on writing "Yahushua" end up pronouncing the name as TWO words "Yahu shua".

The Semitic languages in general were originally written with consonants only. Remember the alef-bet originated with the Semitic people, either the Phoenicians or the Hebrews, no one can say for sure. Because of the nature of those languages the consonants generally carry the meaning, while the vowels serve a grammatical purpose. For example mem-lamed-khaf can mean among other possibilities "melekh" (king) or "malakh" (he reigned), both words having to do with reigning. Beginning in the 10th century BCE matres lectionis were introduced to indicate certain vowels, but a full vowel system was not introduced (in Hebrew)until the 1st millenium of this era. It was only when the Greeks tried to adopt the Semitic alef-bet to Greek that the necessity for a full representation of vowels (in Greek) was recognized.

As far as "silent" letters one needs to be more specific. Originally the Semitic languages had a number of distinctly pronounced gutteral letters. With time the pronunciations were weakened and some of the distinctions were lost. For example, we know that the symbol for ayin originally represented two different sounds, a softer sound and a harsh sound. The harsh sound occurred in words such as ayin-mem-reish-hei (Gommorah) and ayin-zayin-hei (Gaza). When this sound was transliterated into Greek the "harsh" ayin was represented by gamma (g). The softer sound was not even represented in Greek. One has to remember that languages naturally change over time. In the 17th century "Jesus" was pronounced as "Yesus" and before that it was written as "Iesus".

I hope this was of help. I can provide more information on some of these subjects if there is still interest.

Barukh atah Adonai Eloheinu melekh ha'olam asher noten lanu et derekh hayeshu'ah b'Mashiakh Yeshua.

B'rakhot b'shem Yeshua

ThePhysicist

posted 11-28-2000 08:59 PM         

It has always been REVEALED.
Doesn't seem to be hidden at all.

From what i can understand they are the same name, if pronounced with the original sounds of olde english jesus has the sound of y for j etc. so how can anyone say it is a different name.

I have heard people with a north european accent pronounce Jesus very much like the way i see it written here.

They also pronounce yes with a sound like jes.
Spanish pronounce a j sometimes like an h.
I myself sometimes say jeah when i meant to say yeah, usually i pronounce a y as a j when it follows a d, as in d'jeet?
Which means "did-you- eat" here in the ozarks.

In some's attempts to discredit the Jesus way of spelling the father and son's family name, even saying it was never his name, they have proved nothing of value but only bring confusion to simple minds.

Perhaps there would be some profit in teaching proper pronunciation of the old english language? but i just don't see
cultural accents as being something we could get chunked in the lake of fire for.
And neither does it seem that a beautiful precise and proper voicing of the most correct grammar is the pathway to new enlightenment, higher revelations and a secure standing with the almighty.

THe father for certain recognizes the name of Jesus, and the powers of darkness for certain cannot resist it.
FRom what i can understand the name Yeshua is the same name of the same person.

Praise be to the one who confused the languages, he even states why he did it in the story of the tower of babel.

There still is only ONE name which we have to call upon.

The book also says his people know his name,the elohim's one family name is the name transliterated as Jesus.

posted 11-28-2000 09:11 PM            

(1) Are there any ancient languages, other than Hebrew, which have only consonants in their written language?

(2) Are there any ancient languages with silent consonants in their written language compared to spoken? In other words, do any of these languages have written words which have unpronounced (silent) consonants in the written word?