posted 08-24-2000 08:17 AM            

Concerning the name of jesus. Do you realize that the "J" in the English language was not introduced until the year 1665? In short, the name of jesus is less than 350 years old.

The English name of jesus comes from the Roman name Iesus. Iesus is in relationship to the pagan Roman god Apallo. Ieses in Greek is Iesous, Iesous is in relationship to the pagan Greek god Zeus. Neither of these names has any connection what so ever to do with the G-d of Israel.

Is it not true, that in translating one language to another, that the meaning and intent of the origional language is transfered to the other language?

The name "jesus" has no connection to or with the Salvation of YHVH, or YHVH's Salvation.

And therein my Friends is your "son of prediction--son of prediction." For the presentation of this one is "the Strong Delusion, the Strong Deception." HE is the false deliver, HE is the false Messiah. He is the masquarding Messiah, the mimmicking Messiah, He is the one that not only makes a mockery of the Messiah, but of ALL Israel. In that it is said that it is in and through him that Torah has been made VOID and Israel made DESOLATE. It is also in to and through him that G-d's Holy Feast Days have been replaced by pagan feast days, as well as G-d's Holy Sabbath has been replaced by the pagan holy day of sunday.

It is within this name of jesus that the people are led astray.

Those of the gentile church search the horizion for their "antichrist, the false deliver," and they do not even realize, that they are sitting in HIS LAP. All they need to do, is to look over their shoulder.

In short, the name Yahsauh, Yeshua, and jesus are not one and the same. And so therefore do not equate them as such. For to do so is a mockery.

posted 08-24-2000 09:02 AM            

I will not post the refutation to your comment that Iesous has any conection to zeus. I have seen many posts on this topic and I am sure that someone like Seventh Angel or Old Sheperd will address the error in your thinking. I would like to ask you if you first came to faith in Jesus and God and then later learned of Yahweh and Yeshua being "more correct" names? If this is the case, as it is with every one I have asked so far, how can you claim that Jesus is the antichrist?

Simpleman

posted 08-24-2000 09:38 AM         

I would like to take two Hebrew names, yod-shin-vav-ayin normally expressed in English Bibles as "Jesus" and yod-hei-vav-dalet-hei expressed variously in English Bibles as Judah, Jude, or Judas. For this example I will consider how one goes from yod-hei-vav-dalet-hei to "Judas".

There were three factors at work in the transformation from the Hebrew to modern English forms. Two involve the fact that the NT was written in Greek (I have an open challenge to those who say the NT was written in Hebrew or Aramaic - Show me the manuscripts!). First, Greek has no true, discrete "h" sound and second, names in Greek are inflected as are other nouns, so masculine nouns need masculine endings. The third factor is the shifts in English orthography and pronunciation. The initial Hebrew yod was tranliterated into Greek as an iota. The iota was in turn tranliterated into Enlish as an "I". At that time (early modern English) "i" served a dual purpose of both vowel and initial consonant. As an initial consonant "i" was promounced as a "y". With time the shape of the initial "i" was lengthened into a "j" still pronounced as "y". Only later under French influence did the pronunciation of "j" become a soft "g" sound as it is today.

So starting with yod-hei-vav-dalet-hei written as "Y'hudah" and yod-shin-vav-ayin written as "Yeshua" here is the transformation process:

Factor 1 - no "h" sound in Greek

Y'hudah => Yuda
Yeshua => Yesua

Factor 2 - Greek masculine names need a masculine singular ending, sigma (s)

Yuda => Yudas
Yesua => Yesus

Factor 3 - Changing Eglish orthography

Yudas => Iudas => Judas (but pronounced Yudas)
Yesus => Iesus => Jesus (but pronounces Yesus)

Finally, today pronounced in English as Judas and Jesus.

Oseh shalom bimromayv hu ya'aseh shalom aleinu v'al kol Yisra'el, v'imru amein.

ThePhysicist

posted 08-24-2000 10:49 AM            

My Friend, good day to you.

I too was once a Christian. Both as a Protestant and a Catholic. I too was a defender of the "faith."

However the "faith" that I was defending seemed to be in vain. For I came into the understanding that the "True Faith," the establishment of Torah was within the the Being of the G-d of Israel. And in that there was nothing that any of mankind can defend. Because the G-d of Israel has set all things forth from the Foundation of Creation. Before the words were spoken, "let there be Light."

My Friend, Where in Scripture does the G-d of Israel say that HE shall take the things of Paganism, and scrub them clean, and then make them a glory unto Himself?
Where within Scripture does the G-d of Israel say that HE shall make Torah void and Israel Desolate? Where in Scripture does the G-d of Israel say that HE shall replace HIS Holy Feast days with pagan feast days? Where in Scripture does the G-d of Israel say that He shall set aside HIS Holy Sabbath and replace it with the pagan holy day of Sunday?

It's not in there my Friend, its not in there.

ThePhysicist

My Friend, good day to you.

I do not deny that the NT (ReNewed Testament) was not written in the Greek language. However, it was brought into being by,in, and throuth the Hebrew mind. And then presented to, within the Greek language.

You have put up a very good defence my Friend. However, in truth, what is to be defended? Is the G-d of Israel so defenceless that HE needs the defence of mortal man? Has HE not set All things forth?

For a deception can not be a deception as long as it is accepted as the truth.

So should it be that one desires to accept jesus as the Messiah of Israel. Then that means that the Messiah of Israel is a convert unto the ways of paganism and has totally forsaken the ways of the G-d of Israel.

posted 08-24-2000 11:06 AM         

what is to be defended? Is the G-d of Israel so defenceless that HE needs the defence of mortal man?

Let me see if I understand... IF "Jesus" is true, then we should expect G-d to defend the doctrine? Until then, we should accept your word for it?

It is written:
1 Cor. 7:18--"Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.
19) Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
20) Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called."

1 Cor. 7:24--"Brethren, let every man, wherein he is called, therein abide with God."

Were you called, as being a Gentile? Then so remain a Gentile. Were you called then being a Jew? Then remain a Jew. Me thinks you seek to leave your bounds, which Paul suggested we not do.

posted 08-24-2000 12:54 PM         

ThejamesWA has said:

You have put up a very good defence my Friend. However, in truth, what is to be defended? Is the G-d of Israel so defenceless that HE needs the defence of mortal man? Has HE not set All things forth?

Actually I have defended nothing, but simply put forth some facts. There are many people who visit this forum who uncritically accept all anti-Christian statements at face value, but who know neither Hebrew nor Greek. I have stated some concrete facts that can be checked for truthfulness. To wit:

1. Greek has no true, discrete "h" sound.

2. Greek names are inflected and so must have the proper endings.

3. In early modern English "i" functioned as both vowel and consonant.

4. The letter "j" was derived from the consonental use of "i".

5. The letter "j" was originally pronounced like a "y". Note this pronunciation is still preserved in "hallelujah".

Applying these facts establishes that it is reasonable to go from yod-shin-vav-ayin in Hebrew to "Jesus" in modern English. The parallel presentation of the transliteration of yod-hei-vav-dalet-hei as "Judas" demonstates that the treatment of yod-shin-vav-ayin is by no means unique as has sometimes been suggested.

The LXX was translated between mid 3rd century BCE and mid 1st century BCE. In the LXX both yod-hei-vav-shin-(vav)-ayin and yod-shin-vav-ayin are transliterated as Iota-eta-sigma-omicron-upsilon-sigma, usually represented in English as "Iesous". Thus "Iesous" was in use in Israel during the lifetime of Yeshua; however, we see no recorded example that Yeshua understood that "Iesous" was corrupted by paganism. I now make another standing challenge for anyone to demonstate the use of "Iesous" in the LXX is an example of paganism.

On a final note "B'rit Khadashah" means "New Covenant" not "renewed covenant". According to BDB (pg 294) and all other dictionaries, lexicons, and vocabulary lists I consulted the adjective "khadash" (khet-dalet-shin) means "new" not "renewed".

Mi-khamokhah ba'eilim Adonai, mi kamokhah nedar bakodesh, nora t'hilot, oseh feleh.

posted 08-24-2000 01:29 PM            

My Friend, good day to you.

If jesus is true, then the Messiah of Israel is a total convert to Paganism. It is the Word--TORAH--of G-d that one needs to accept, and not the word of ANY religious beliefs.
As for me, I could not, I would not worship a helpless, a hopeless, a hapless G-d. A G-d that could not, was not, able to tend to HIS own affairs. For the G-d of Israel says that "It is HE and HE alone that shall bring these things into being." Any and all that mankind can do, is to follow the precipts of G-d and bring HIS will into being. Can the G-d of Israel be pray swayed? If so, then take the prohpices of Scripture, and flush them down the toliet of life.

>>It is written: 1 Cor. 7:18--"Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.9) Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
20) Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called."

Did you note the "commandments of G-d?"
Therein, where is the observation of the pagan holy day of Sunday?

My Friend, that which Paul says is the truth.
For Circumcision is a blood cut covenant between the G-d of Israel and HIS people Israel---the twelve tribes. Circumcism as such is not, was not, intended to or for the gentile people.

And so it is---20) Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called."

>>Were you called, as being a Gentile? Then so remain a Gentile. Were you called then being a Jew? Then remain a Jew. Me thinks you seek to leave your bounds, which Paul suggested we not do.

True, I was raised in the gentile world, feeling as though I was a gentile.
However, I came into the understanding that I am an Iseralite that has been sown within the gentile peoples. And yet in that, I am no better than anyother.
No, I am not a Jew. Nor do I claim any more connection to the Jewish religion than I do to the Christian religion---of which I once belonged. I am neither Christian nor Jew, I am an Israelite-- One of the scattered Ten Tribes. To say that ALL of Jewery is Israelite is like saying that ALL of Christianity is Catholic.

Until Shiloh Comes
THEjamesWA

posted 08-24-2000 02:10 PM            

The Physicist:

My Friend, again, good day to you.

Yes, and again you have presented a most interesting rebuttal. However, I still can not find within Scripture where the Messiah of Israel is to become a total convert unto paganism.

It is in a manner of speaking, like the so called Passover Lamb, as being a sin sacrifice. For no where in Scripture is the Passover Lamb refered to as a sin sacrifice.
That is except where it has been implanted by the church in the renewn Testament. An example---My Father is a second son. I am the third of three children. The oldest two are sisters. So therefore my whole family except for me---I am the first born son---could have stayed outside all night that night without any fear. For the messenager of death was sent only for the first born son. In short, the Passover Lamb can Scriptureally be connected to or with a sin sacrifice. For it was not the sin(s) of the first born that the Messenager of Death was seeking.

Oh yes, and as far as the new---the renewed Testament goes. You must understand that I only have a little understanding of the English language and that's all. However, I do know that in the Greek there are two forms of "new." One means "brand new," the other means "renewed." And in the Greek, the one that is used for new is renewed. Just as in Rev. 3:12---Wherein the L-rd says that HE shall have a "new Name." It is not a brand new name. Rather, it is a renewed,a revived, a refreshed name. A name that shall totally separate, totally isolate HIM from any and all of the religions of this world. The name by which our father Jacob called HIM before any other name for HIM was mentioned. Gen. 49:10 Until Shiloh come, and unto HIM shall the gathering of the people be. For you see my Friend, that Yahsuah, G-ds Salvation, the Salvation of G-d comes into fulfillment in the Dwelling place of G-d, the Tabernacle of G-d. And that is in Shiloh.

Until Shiloh Comes
THEjamesWA

posted 08-24-2000 03:25 PM         

If jesus is true, then the Messiah of Israel is a total convert to Paganism.

If you consider that organized Christianity in general is "paganism" then this statement I could accept.

Can the G-d of Israel be pray swayed? If so, then take the prohpices of Scripture, and flush them down the toliet of life.

If you'll recall, G-d once thought to destroy Israel, and it was only by being 'swayed' by Moses that this did not come to pass...

Did you note the "commandments of G-d?" Therein, where is the observation of the pagan holy day of Sunday?

Luke 10:22--"All things are delivered to me of my Father:..." What good is a King who has no authority? So, who's commandments do we keep? Messiah said to keep His commandments... does the Father disagree?

Romans 14:5--"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." The Sabbath is never re-inforced throughout the N.T. Strange, isn't it?

For Circumcision is a blood cut covenant between the G-d of Israel and HIS people Israel---the twelve tribes. Circumcism as such is not, was not, intended to or for the gentile people.

Yes, and the New Covenant is a covenant between the Father and Son, which through faith we also may become partakers thereof. Circumcision of the flesh has no value in the New Covenant.

2 Cor. 3:14--"But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ."

As friendly advice, I would caution you not to look too zealously into the Old Covenant for your salvation. Salvation is found through Messiah, and it is the veil via the reading of the O.T. which can act as a snare to lead one away from Him... if one isn't careful. After all, it is the presence of Messiah's blood which the Father will be looking for at the judgment...

Again, it is walking in Truth and Spirit which is all Messiah requires. For, in doing this, one has the Messiah in his heart, and follows the will of G-d... and in so doing will never need to fear breaking the Law.

Spirit and not letter...

posted 08-24-2000 09:03 PM            

My Friend, again, good day to you.

>>If you consider that organized Christianity in general is "paganism" then this statement I could accept.

<>Yes I do consider all of christianity to be pagan based. For you see, the mother may deny the child, and the child may deny their mother. Yet that does not elimanate the mother child relationship. One might say, that it is in the DNA. Even though the child may deny the surface of the mother. Yet the child still contains the INNER make up of the mother.

>>If you'll recall, G-d once thought to destroy Israel, and it was only by being 'swayed' by Moses that this did not come to pass...

<>I would ask you my Friend. Is The G-d of Israel ALL knowing or not? Should it be that HE is not, then we are all in for a WORLD of hurt. Is not the G-d of Israel the Author of the Scriptures. Tell me, can any Author be supprised by that which they put forth in a writing? Can one read a book once, and then read it years later, and Walla--the story has competely changed?

>>Luke 10:22--"All things are delivered to me of my Father:..." What good is a King who has no authority? So, who's commandments do we keep? Messiah said to keep His commmandments...does the Father disagree?

<>Yes, that is the truth. And the commandments of the Messiah are the commandments set forth by the G-d of Israel.
The commandments of Messiah are the DICTATES of the G-d of Israel in HIS commandments.

>>Romans 14:5--"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day
alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." The Sabbath is never re-inforced throughout the N.T. Strange, isn't it?

<>No my Friend, For you see that the mother church had the NT totally within her own little hands for over 1300 years. For any of the lay to have a copy of the Scriptures in those day, it was certain DEATH. Read about the HISTORY of the church. It certainly AIN'T pretty. And therein, where does the G-d of Israel ever say that HE shall set aside HIS holy Sabbath for the pagan holy day of Sunday?

>>Yes, and the New Covenant is a covenant between the Father and Son, which through faith we also may become partakers thereof. Circumcision of the flesh has no value in the New Covenant.

<>Romams 3:31 Do we then make void the law (Torah)through faith? G-d forbid: yea, we establish the law (Torah).
I can not find any where in the Origional, the Old Testament where it is written that the new Covenant is between the Father and the Son. However, I do find in the Origional, the Old Testament, where the RENEWED covenant is between the G-d of Israel and the Ten tribes of Israel and the tribe of Judah.

>>As friendly advice, I would caution you not to look too zealously into the Old Covenant for your salvation. Salvation is found through Messiah, and it is the veil via the reading of the O.T.which can act as a snare to lead one away from Him... if one isn't careful. After all, it is the presence of Messiah's blood which the Father will be looking for at the judgment...

<>The New, The Renewed Testament is but conformation of that which is written there within the Origional, the Old Testament. Perhaps you should compare the two more closer.
Yes, it is true, that Salvation---the separation unto the G-d of Israel is in, to and through the Messiah of Israel.
However, no where in the Origional, the Old Testament have I ever found where the G-d of Israel would make of HIS Son the aultmate of pagan sacrifices. That of a human blood sacrifice to please, to apease HIM.

That word "Salvation," the separation unto G-d. That word comes from the essence of being of a Nazarite.

Until Shiloh Comes
THEjamesWA

My Friend, that is not out of Scripture. That is out of pagan Rome.

However, I shall most certainly change my understanding, should it be that you can show unto me where the G-d of Israel says that HIS son shall become a human blood sacrifice to appease HIM. (Old Testament of course)

posted 08-24-2000 09:19 PM         

(sigh)

no where in the Origional, the Old Testament have I ever found where the G-d of Israel would make of HIS Son the aultmate of pagan sacrifices. That of a human blood sacrifice to please, to apease HIM.

To deny the sacrifice of the Passover lamb is to deny the entire "sum total" prophecy of the Old Testament and the meaning behind Abraham's attempted sacrifice.

That word "Salvation," the separation unto G-d. That word comes from the essence of being of a Nazarite.

#1--We are commanded to be separate from evil works, not from the world in general.
Mark 16:15--"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."

John 17:18--"As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world."

#2--We are to become as others so as to bring them into the fold(not including entering their sins).

1 Cor. 9:20--"And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21) To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22) To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men , that I might by all means save some."

The Catholics have tried 'separation from the world' for centuries... it has yet to work and, worse yet, it was never commanded.

#3--Salvation is not by works, ANY works.

Galatians 2:16--"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ..."

Romans 11:6--"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

John 5:23--"That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him."

"Salvation" without the faith of the Son is nothing but vanity.

posted 08-24-2000 09:25 PM            

Excellent post! It's hard to argue against facts.

I thought this article might be appropriate for this thread;

From:
http://www.webcom.com/~ctt/canon05.html

God had always desired the happiness, prosperity, and peace of His people. The Sinai Covenant was designed to provide those benefits to previously-enslaved people, insignificant in world history at the time. The Law was flawless in its design--incorporating justice for the oppressed, encouraging health in the community, providing for forgiveness of covenant violations by the people, differentiating Israel from her neighbors (giving a sense of
uniqueness), and fostering tight community values through religious festivals and celebration.

But the Law between God and man had one major weakness--us! The historical unfolding of humanity's failure to keep even our limited part of the bargain was well documented in the OT. The failure of the very institutions created to perpetuate covenant loyalty (i.e. civil leadership, the priesthood, prophetic schools, lay sages, family education) brought about the awesome consequences spelled out (and agreed to by Israel) in the Treaty: Captivity and
Exile.

As the prophets--sent by YHWH to call His people back to the Law--consistently warned, begged, ridiculed, challenged Israel to 'seek the Lord while He may be found', they also began announcing the NEW covenant--a NEW way for YHWH to bless his people IN SPITE OF THEIR limitations.

Probably the most famous statement of this shift in God's program for Israel is in Jeremiah 31:

"The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. 33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law
in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, `Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." (Jer 31.31ff)

Notice a couple of elements in this:

It is a NEW covenant--NOT the 'old' one.
It is somehow NOT LIKE the 'old' one.
The 'old' one is apparently 'broken'.
The new one is 'after that time'--it is yet future to Jeremiah, and it is here announced BEFORE the Exile!
It involves putting the law INSIDE the minds/hearts of the people.
The knowledge of God will somehow NOT BE CONFINED to some teaching hierarchy (corrupted in this time as it was in the time of Jesus, cf. Luke 13.34: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! ) but be implanted/intrinsic in the people of God. Mediation by merely human priests and
teachers, although perhaps useful, will not be necessary.

This is staggering in its implications. This LOOKS LIKE a departure from the very criteria of what constitutes authentic messages from God. It looks like a departure from the Law of Moses (although that would be ENTIRELY acceptable for the Suzerain, but not for the vassal, and this passage represents YHWH's message, not Israel's.)

But let's ask the question--how far back can we trace this promise of a 'new covenant'? How far back can we see the elements of this new treaty or relationship between God and His precious people?

To look at this, we need actually to go FORWARD in time first, to see how the later prophets 'fleshed' this promise out. In other words, how did other passages in Jeremiah speak of this, and how did Post-Exilic prophets understand this?

Other passages in Jeremiah:

I will surely gather them from all the lands where I banish them in my furious anger and great wrath; I will bring them back to this place and let them live in safety. 38 They will be my people, and I will be their God. 39 I will give them singleness of heart and action, so that they will always fear me for their own good and the good of their children after them. 40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to
them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me. 41 I will rejoice in doing them good and will assuredly plant them in this land with all my heart and soul. (Jer 32.37ff)

Notice:

It is after the Return from Captivity.
God will do SUBSTANTIAL "in-heart" work.
It is called an 'everlasting covenant' and said to be in the FUTURE.
The people will be loyal.

Then the word of the LORD came to me: 5 "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: `Like these good figs, I regard as good the exiles from Judah, whom I sent away from this place to the land of the Babylonians. 6 My eyes will watch over them for their good, and I will bring them back to this land. I will build them up and not tear them down; I will plant them and not uproot them. 7 I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the LORD. They
will be my people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with all their heart. (Jer 24.5)

Notice:

The time is sometime AFTER the Return.
God will do SUBSTANTIAL in-heart work, even to the point of giving them a new heart: "a heart to know me".
The people will return to God with 'all their heart'.

The Exilic/Post-Exilic Prophet: Ezekiel gives us more detail in the image of this future:
"`My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. 25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will
establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I the LORD make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.'"(Ezek 37.24)

Notice:

An eternal reign of "David" is connected with this!
This is connected to the promises of the land to the Patriarchs.
The covenant is YET future to Ezekiel (during the exile).
This future covenant is called an 'everlasting covenant' (as in Jeremiah).

"`This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will deal with you as you deserve, because you have despised my oath by breaking the covenant. 60 Yet I will remember the covenant I made with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you. ... So I will establish my covenant with you, and you will know that I am the LORD. " (Ezek 16.59)

Notice:

Israel had broken the old covenant.
God will remember some OLDER covenant (during Israel's youth--the Patriarchal covenant).
On the basic of this pre-Mosaic covenant, God will establish a FUTURE covenant.
This future covenant is called an 'everlasting' covenant (as in Jeremiah).
The establishment of this covenant is yet future.
The future covenant also produces a knowledge of YHWH.

"Therefore say: `This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will gather you from the nations and bring you back from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you back the land of Israel again.' 18 "They will return to it and remove all its vile images and detestable idols. 19 I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh. 20 Then they
will follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. They will be my people, and I will be their God. (Ezek 11.17)

Notice:

God will do some VERY SUBSTANTIAL in-heart work, including real heart-transplants!
This will happen AFTER the Return.
Not only do the people get new hearts, but God promises a 'new spirit' IN THEM as well!
As a result of this inner change, God's people will actually follow God's will!

"`For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my
decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people, and I will be your God. (Ezek 36.24ff)

Notice:

This will occur AFTER the Return.
God will give his people the heart-transplant, from stone to flesh.
He will put a "new spirit IN them".
He also says that He will put "His Spirit" in them! (YHWH's Spirit was normally reserved ONLY for the leadership in Israel!).
God will "move" His people to obedience (guaranteeing the covenant blessings!)
God refers to the Patriarchal promise of the Land.

I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the house of Israel, declares the Sovereign LORD." (Ezek 39.29)

Notice that the future scenario includes the 'pouring out of the Spirit'.

And finally, the Post-Return prophet Joel speaks about this massive "In-heart" work of YHWH
Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am the LORD your God, and that there is no other; never again will my people be shamed. `And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. 29 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days. 30 I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire
and billows of smoke. 31 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD. 32 And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; (Joel 2)

Notice:

This phenomenon will occur LATER THAN the Return.
It involves an 'outpouring of YHWH's Spirit' (as in Ezeky)
The scope of the outpouring is ALL people--not just some leadership.
It manifests itself as an advanced knowledge of God (i.e. prophetic insight)
......................................................................................

Notice the characteristics of this New Action/Covenant by God:

it is DIFFERENT from the old one.
it is being instituted because the old one was 'broken'
it is future to all the OT passages that describe it
it is announced before the Exile
it involves putting the Law of God 'inside the hearts' of people
it will distribute personal and intimate knowledge of God among the people (not requiring an information hierarchy)
it involves giving the people 'singleness of heart'
it involves considerable amount of In-heart work: inspiring, loyalty, "replacement", moving to obedience
it is called an 'EVERLASTING' covenant (the Mosaic covenant is NOT called 'everlasting')
it is somehow connected to the eternal reign of 'David' (linked to the Davidic covenant)
it is somehow based on the Patriarchal covenants
it will involve a 'new spirit' for the people.
it will involve YHWH putting His Spirit inside the people (as opposed to just the leadership)
it involves an 'outpouring of the Spirit'

Notice that the main problem was a "heart and will" issue.

Israel was supposed to take the Law of Moses and 'install it' into their hearts THEMSELVES. This shows up in both the instructions INSIDE the Law, and in the prophet's injunctions to do so as well.

When Moses rehearsed the Law as Israel was about to enter the land, the imperative was explicit:
These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts. 7 Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. 8 Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. 9 Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates. (Deut 6.6f)

Fix these words of mine in your hearts and minds; tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. 19 Teach them to your children, talking about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. 20 Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates, 21 so that your days and the days of your children may be many in the land that the LORD swore to give your forefathers, as
many as the days that the heavens are above the earth. (Deut 11.18ff)

When Moses finished reciting all these words to all Israel, 46 he said to them, "Take to heart all the words I have solemnly declared to you this day, so that you may command your children to obey carefully all the words of this law. 47 They are not just idle words for you -- they are your life. By them you will live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to possess." (Deut 32.45ff).

And when Ezekiel delivered YHWH's impassioned cry, the imperative was the same:
"Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live! (Ezek 18.30)
Some in Israel DID this--leaders and lay folk alike. The psalmists and prophets spoke of that minority in whose 'heart was the Law of the Lord':

"Hear me, you who know what is right, you people who have my law in your hearts: Do not fear the reproach of men or be terrified by their insults. (Is 51.7)

The mouth of the righteous man utters wisdom, and his tongue speaks what is just. 31 The law of his God is in his heart; his feet do not slip. (Ps 37.30)

8 I desire to do your will, O my God; your law is within my heart." (Ps 40.8)

But we still have the question of the relationship of the Patriarchal, Mosaic, and New Covenants--how are they related?

To see this we have to look at the pre-cursors to the announcement of the NEW covenant in Jeremiah, and its explication in the later prophets. We have to look for those common and distinguishing elements in early passages (even though the phrase 'new covenant' will not appear). Let's look at some of these now:

The earliest reference seems to occur in the Law of Moses itself!
When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come upon you and you take them to heart wherever the LORD your God disperses you among the nations, 2 and when you and your children return to the LORD your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, 3 then the LORD your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he
scattered you. 4 Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the LORD your God will gather you and bring you back. 5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your fathers, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers. 6 The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and
with all your soul, and live. (Deut 30).

Notice:

that the promise of a 'circumcised heart' occurs AFTER the covenant would be broken (e.g. 'dispersed', 'banished')
that the promise is after a Return.
that the promise is related to the Patriarchal promises--'the land that belonged to your fathers'.
that the In-heart work applies to the whole population.
that the In-heart work produces the love and fulfillment of that the Law demanded (cf. Romans 8.4)

Thus the major component of the New Covenant was already promised to those who would break the Old covenant!

And then there was that everlasting covenant with David:
These are the last words of David:..."Is not my house right with God? Has he not made with me an everlasting covenant, arranged and secured in every part?

The LORD had promised David that one of his sons would enjoy an eternal kingdom and have a very special and close relationship with GOD:

"`The LORD declares to you that the LORD himself will establish a house for you: 12 When your days are over and you rest with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, who will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his father, and he will be my son. (2 Sam 7.12ff)

And in Isaiah 9.6, this Davidic figure is quite exalted in description, and the eternal aspect is mentioned explicitly:

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever.

The Davidic covenant was in NO WAY dependent on the Mosaic one (just as the Abrahamic one was not dependent on it either). [There was ONE very important connection, though; if David's sons did NOT obey the Law to the fullest, then they would be deposed (I Chr 28.6)...this points interestingly to the need for a 'perfect human' to fulfill this--one certainly matching the exalted portrayal in Is 9!]

Isaiah speaks of a FUTURE, everlasting covenant and links it expressly to the Davidic covenant:

Give ear and come to me; hear me, that your soul may live. I will make an everlasting covenant with you, my faithful love promised to David. 4 See, I have made him a witness to the peoples, a leader and commander of the peoples.[/b] (Is 55.3)

Notice how the TWO are somehow flip sides of the same coin! The everlasting covenant with the people IS BOUND UP WITH the 'other side' of the everlasting covenant with David! The blessing of a non-mediated relationship with YHWH for the common folk is accompanied by the blessings of a Davidic leader unparalleled in wisdom, power, kindness, justice, and sensitivity! Such a future for His beloved Israel!

Micah is not as explicit in his statements, but nonetheless ties future national-scale forgiveness to the ABRAHAMIC covenant instead of to the Mosaic:

[i]Who is a God like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy. 19 You will again have compassion on us; you will tread our sins underfoot and hurl all our iniquities into the depths of the sea. 20 You will be true to Jacob, and show mercy to Abraham, as you pledged on oath to our fathers in days long ago. (Micah 7.18f)

And the Patriarchal and Davidic promises actually form the foundation of this future covenant!

So the Psalmist:

He remembers his covenant forever, the word he commanded, for a thousand generations, 9 the covenant he made with Abraham, the oath he swore to Isaac. 10 He confirmed it to Jacob as a decree, to Israel as an everlasting covenant: (Ps 105.8)
And Jeremiah:
This is what the LORD says: `If I have not established my covenant with day and night and the fixed laws of heaven and earth, 26 then I will reject the descendants of Jacob and David my servant and will not choose one of his sons to rule over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. For I will restore their fortunes and have compassion on them.'" (Jer 33.25f)

What seems to emerge from this...

God made an everlasting covenant with Abraham, promising to give the land to his chosen posterity, and to bless the entire world through his posterity. Because Israel was in the line of Abraham, God chose them to establish a special Suzerain-Vassal conditional treaty (known as the Sinaitic/Mosaic covenant). Israel had the responsibility of loyalty to the Suzerain, but failed in their voluntary treaty commitments. The Suzerain sent many messengers
(prophetic voices) to them, warning them of the consequences of betrayal and treason. But God had foreseen the failure of these descendants of Abraham, and began making other covenants with them that would be 'more secure' than the one based upon Israelite spirituality of the time. He established an everlasting covenant with David. He also blessed the Levites with an everlasting covenant of service (Jer 33.18). And as the days for the consequences of
betrayal and disloyalty got closer (in the Exile), the prophets who warned of this legal judgment by the Suzerain ALSO spoke to the faithful of a NEW covenant, based on the promises to Abraham and to David, in which the limitations of the old one would be eliminated. In other words, the promise of the New, everlasting covenant was the hope of new and faithful hearts from YHWH for His people!

Thus the prophets, far from introducing 'new gods' or encouraging the people to disobey the Law, stood firmly in the center of the Abrahamic commitments and revelation. Even as they increasingly held out the hope of the New Covenant, they relentlessly confronted God's people with the urgent demands of the Mosaic law. Micah's famous passage pointed out the simplicity of the requirements: And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love
mercy and to walk humbly with your God. (Micah 6.8), but even this was too difficult for people with deep-seated propensities to disloyalty [not much different from us, I might add], as Jeremiah lamented: Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil. (Jer 13.23)

For those who consistently confessed (and probably despaired of ) this failure (e.g. Nehemiah, Daniel), the hope of New Hearts must have been a source of deep encouragement and endurance.

But this was not a surprise to YHWH somehow...

He had told His precious ones in Deut that they would fail, and that He would do 'in heart' work in the future. And from the beginning He had promised another Moses, another servant, another messenger in the future:

The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him. ... 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. (Deut 18.15ff)
and at the close of the OT, in the book of Malachi, YHWH proclaims that this messenger (now the very Angel of YHWH Himself!) will come to fulfill this:
"See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the LORD Almighty. (Mal 3.1)
YHWH would come to His people, and the messenger/Angel of this new Covenant--desired wholeheartedly by Israel-- would come to His dwelling place to take up residence among the descendants of Abraham.
........................................................................................

The implications of this discussion on the issue of canonicity boils down to this:

The OT criteria of authenticity was fidelity to the previously-authenticated revelation of God: Mosaic or the foundations of the Mosaic--the Abrahamic.

The OT prophetic role was always claiming to be connected to the voice of YHWH as setup in the Mosaic legislation.

As part of this stream, they announced the coming of the New Covenant--setting ADDITIONAL or even more RESTRICTIVE criteria on authenticity. For example, the commands to 'pay attention to that prophet' (the New Moses) was very emphatic in the Mosaic pronouncements. Accordingly, the criteria of authenticity would include both fidelity to the requirements of the Old Covenant and fidelity to the promise of the New One.

posted 08-25-2000 02:04 AM            

Yah be with you.

It saddens me that so many cannot see this. I too grew up in a christian church, and the gospel meaning "the good news", never being shown the true gospel of 1st. Cor. 15, until I came out of "todays" so called church. But the Yahshua I came to know is so very different from the "jesus" I was taught about. I am so thankful to Yah and his great mercy toward me.

When I read "be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect" I would just tremble.
When I read; "But those that do the will of my father..." I would tremble.
When I read; "keep the commandments" I would tremble.
So afraid, so very afraid, that I would never be able to be perfect. I felt so hopeless.
Though I loved Yahshua with all of my heart. Though I talked to Him ALL THE TIME. There was hardly a moment in my day that Yahshua was not at least in the back of my mind. But I continued to be so convicted. Fearing that my faith was not strong enough to believe that I was forgiven. Always feeling so guilty. So ashamed. Sometimes I could hardly lift my face toward him. My sins ruled me so.
One day I read a post by ImaHebrew. Explaining how "we" are guilty of Yahshuas' death. Asking one, if they knew and understood that the blood of Yahshua was on their hands. As ImaHebrew continued to show forth how all of this lined up with scripture, for the first time I SAW what he was saying. OH… how I cried. I cried and cried and cried.
"I never knew" I cried, I realized, that if Yahshua was going to be "my sacrifice", for my sin, my "atonement", then it was just as if I went out and slit the lambs throat with my own hands. For it was my "sin" that I was hoping to "cover". If indeed I wanted him to be my "covering". I never understood "cleansed by the blood" before this.

I really took it to heart. I prayed and prayed, I don't want to "kill him", I don't want to "offer him up". He is my life I cried. I talk to him about EVERYTHING. How could I offer him up??? I knew I loved him, knew I BELIEVED In him, He was/is more REAL to me then anything on this earth. But I never knew I slew him. If I were standing beside even my enemy. And one holding a gun said to me, "okay, it's you or them". I truly feel in my heart I would and could say ME. Kill me.
But in this case I could not do that. I CANT' I cried to Yah. I can't be guilty of slaying him! I got the feeling that if I truly mentally "offered him up" that somehow it would be as if he wasn't with me anymore. I mean, how many lambs are offered up and then you go in your field and still see them there? But I knew that if I wanted Yahshua to be my covering for my sins, that there was no other way. I cried so very hard, for three days at the thought of "offering Yahshua up" as my sacrificial lamb. Litterally Three days I sobbed.

On the third day of my continuous weeping, Yah showed me "HOW" He preached the gospel to Abraham.
Yah promised Abraham a "son". And Abraham lived for many years with the "hope" of that son. Then finally Abraham received that son. And grew with that son, and that son was his life. Then Yah said to Abraham, now offer him up.

Well… I saw. I knew all my life I lived in the "hope" of this son that the world preached. And when I came to know the Yahshua of the scriptures, well… I finally RECEVIED the Son. And this Son was my life. Almost my every breath. Hardly a person crossed my path that I did not speak the name Yahshua too, at least once.
Even if it was just "Yahshua bless". Basically, no one comes around me unless they want to hear about Yahshua. Family would say; "don't get her started!"
And when I "saw" How Yah preached the gospel to Abraham for the first time… It was then that John 1 really spoke to me.

And then I finally understood (always wondered about it before) in rev. when John says he saw in the midst, one as a lamb that had been slain from the foundation of the world.
Then Yahshua became the Word. The Word of Yah. And I found myself before the Father. Which is exactly what Yahshua said he would do. Is bring us unto the Father.
Oh… I'm crying now. And something "new" happened inside. Scriptures are coming together like they never had before. The same scriptures I had read since 5th. Grade, and suddenly I saw Yah. It was as if He said, "it's been Me all along DeAnna". It was as if He called me by name. You are so right James. The Jesus that the world teaches and the Yahshua that is Yah's salvation are so very different. And 'Then" Yah showed me more.

How Truly all things come by His hand. And even David became alive and well. Now I know what Yah meant by "we shall return unto the house of David."
And for the first time in my life, now… knowing Yah, and how he is Willing to keep a lying tongue, or anything that Is evil in his eyes sight far from us, if we only ask.
I used to be so afraid of the law of Yah. Now I want to study it, and know it. Not to be saved by works of my hands, I know with all my heart, that it is Yah's hand at work, not mine. The more I ask him for his commands, the more I see them manifest in my life. And it really is as if I have nothing to do with it, except read, and talk to him and seek him daily.
His Sabbath has become so clear to me now. So wonderful.

I never knew such hope. Yah really does "perfect us". For He really is our "maker". Ah.. we truly are, wonderfully and perfectly made.

Yahshua brings us unto the Father indeed.
Love,
DeAnna

posted 08-25-2000 06:26 AM            

My Friend, good day to you.

>>To deny the sacrifice of the Passover lamb is to deny the entire "sum total" prophecy of
the Old Testament and the meaning behind Abraham's attempted sacrifice.

<>Where in Scripture does it say that the Passover Lamb was a sacrifice?---That is of course within the Origional, the Old Testament. The slaughtering of the Passover Lamb was to and for the intent of a meal, a feast.
As for Abraham's attempted sacrifice. That was not intended as a human blood sacrifice to appease G-d. One must remember, that that is the enviroment of which Abraham came out of. G-d was relating to Abraham that HE did not accept human blood sacrifices to appease HIM. For no where in Scripture---The Origional, the Old Testament does the G-d of Israel say that a human blood sacrifice shall appease HIM,---that is totally pagan.

>>#1--We are commanded to be separate from evil works, not from the world in general.
<>This is the essence of being of a Nazarite
---Num. 6.

>>#2--We are to become as others so as to bring them into the fold(not including
entering their sins).

<>Yes, and that is exactly why Paul is a Pharisse of Pharisse's. Because He had the ability to present G-d's Torah unto the gentile people in such a manner that they could relate.

>>#3--Salvation is not by works, ANY works.

Galatians 2:16--"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the
faith of Jesus Christ..." Romans 11:6--"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more
grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."
John 5:23--"That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that
honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him." "Salvation" without the faith of the Son is nothing but vanity.

<>Yes,For Paul always speaks in the truth. So let us look at this througt the eyes, the Understanding of Paul, an Israelite of the tribe of Benjamin.
First, let us come into the understanding of words within the Hebrew application.
Justice--Justified--Justification===To live in Harmony with Torah.
Faith===The establishment of Torah within.
Grace===The undeserved Love of G-d.
Work===That which one does for renumeration.

Galatians 2:16--"Knowing that a man is not justified (live in Harmony with Torah) by the works (the seeking of renumeration)of the law,(Torah) but by the faith (the establishment of Torah) of Jesus Christ..." Romans 11:6--"And if by grace,(the unwarranted Love of G-d) then is it no more of works the seeking of renumeration) otherwise grace(the unwarrented Love of G-d) is no more grace.(the unwarrented Love of G-d) But if it be of works,(The renumeration for that which is preformed) then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."
John 5:23--"That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that
honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him." "Salvation" (the essence of being of a Nazarite)without the faith (the establishment of Torah within)of the Son is nothing but vanity.

My Friend, the Renewed Testament may have been writen in Greek. But it was brought into being by the Hebrew mind. And so it is within the Hebrew mind that It must be understood.

Until Shiloh Comes
THEjamesWA