posted 06-06-2000 08:26 AM         

The problem is that people can't agree on what those definitions are. What is so clear to one person is not so clear to another. For example, you have no problem with the term Christian but many here would. The more common term used in the NT is follower of the Way or believer. Believers were first called Christians in Antioch, but by whom - believers or unbelievers. Was it a compliment or an insult? I prefer the term "believer" but use the term "Christian" when I think it communicates.

As another example, being part of a Messianic congregation, I prefer the name Yeshua (or Y'hoshua) as the name for the Messiah. I can read Hebrew and know that there is no such name as "Yahshua" in Hebrew. I know that people who use "Yashua" believe it is to be preferred to "Jesus" although "Jesus" is honestly derived from "Iesous" the name used in both the Greek NT and the LXX. I suspect I will get arguments on this statement, but that would just go to prove my point. Arguments occur because people disagree.

posted 06-06-2000 01:09 PM         

"Yah" is spelled yod-hei. "Yeshua" is spelled yod-shin-vav-ayin in the Tanakh. If the word "Yahshua" existed it would be spelled yod-hei-shin-(vav)-ayin. There are no such occurrences in the Tanakh.

I do not know how to pronounce yod-hei-vav-hei. My experience tells me that if people had to sight read and translate a Hebrew text as students in a Hebrew class do, they would be quite a bit less sure of their Hebrew transliterations. Anyway, your comment proves the point. You are sure of your opinion and I of mine.

B'rakhot b'shem Yeshua HaMashiakh, derekh hayeshu'ah

ThePhysicist

Added note: The form "Yah" occurs principally (perhaps exclusively) in poetry (mostly later Psalms) and as a combining form in names. There is little indication that it was used in ordinary speach. On the other hand, the form yod-hei-vav-hei is one of the most common words in the Tenakh, but I don't know how to pronounce it.

posted 06-06-2000 03:45 PM            

-Menorah

posted 06-06-2000 03:48 PM         

The old and new testament speaks of saints also( in both cases it means holy ones).
All these are believers, all believers are not following the son,,yet,, fully.
WE are all brethren,if we are believers.
A saint is not an idol to be praying to of course, or to make a replica of, this is the false church's definition whom it is gods will to expose.
So we have saints, brethren ,believers christians,members of the body, sheep,sons and daughters,abrahams seed, and we are called by other names also.
THere is much truth and meaning lost when we think our preferences are superior to our fathers inspired words.
Each place each different word is used IT IS FOR A REASON. When it says church he means church or body he means body, or faith he means faith or belief he means belief,etc.
Every word fits together with all the rest. Does anyone here respect, and love the word, under any name?
When the world calls us a christian i dont think they are giving us a compliment, does this bother you?

posted 06-06-2000 04:29 PM         

Menorah said

(Physcist)would you tell me where the name Yahshua is found in the tanak or that other name you described in your last post? If you can find this you have found something that most jews have never discovered.

Whereas I actually said in my first post

I can read Hebrew and know that there is no such name as "Yahshua" in Hebrew.

The Yashua was a typo and also meant to be Yahshua, but I think there are people who use that term too. I think this is humorous because I am being accussed of saying the exact opposite of what I said!

I followed that in the second post with

IF the word "Yahshua" existed it would be spelled yod-hei-shin-(vav)-ayin. There are NO such occurrences in the Tanakh. (emphasis added)

And Cutter said

A follower of the way,? this is very wrong,! we are not followersoftheway.WE are to be followers of the christ.

But I would suggest looking at Acts 9:2, 19:9, 22:4, and 24:14,22. It is clear that the term "The Way" is used to identify the practices and beliefs of the followers of Yeshua.

We can't even get a few names straight. Do I think we can get doctrines straight? It doesn't seem likely.

ThePhysicist

posted 06-06-2000 04:40 PM            

I love this topic, it excites me to learn about Hebrew! Can we look at the tettra a little closer?

yod-hei-vav-hei If we could break down the first two letters first (yod hei) Where do the vowel markings come in here, and how do we know what the original vowel markings are? Also, how do you pronounce these 2 letters?
You suppose that some Jewish families passed His name down from generation to generation, the name spoken at Yom Kippur in the Holy of Holies? Just speculation I know.
When I became a believer in God, I used the name Jesus, and I was told it was the highest name in the universe, there were none above Him. I then, in my research of the scriptures, found out more and more about the Christian Hebrew history. It was then that I came across: Jesus and God = Satan. Not all believe that way here, but some do, and lots do elsewhere. So I became fascinated with the "Name Game" I see it now like the Charasmatics fighting with the Catholics, or the Muslims and the Christians. So, I call Him Yahweh, sometimes Yahwehshua, sometimes Father, sometimes God, once in a great while I'll catch myself even saying Jesus!
I do not fear my Father will cast me to "hell" for it. In the heat of the battle, He who will never leave me, nor forsake me will be my strong tower.

Shalom Menorah!! My name is Michael, and as you can imagine, I am usually called Mike. I do not like to be called Mike, in fact, I pretty much abhor it. My brothers and sisters and my mom and dad all call me Mike, all the time. I have told them maybe 10-20 times that I detest being called Mike, and that I would rather be called Michael (like unto El). Of course they do not listen to me, and I am called Mike all the time.

So, I do these things in the name of Mike: I answer them when they call
I seek them when I am sought
I let them in when they knock
I help them when they ask for it.
I show them Agape, and I let the Name Game go.

posted 06-06-2000 05:35 PM         

One of the things that you learn as you learn Hebrew is that vowels change as a word takes endings or is compounded. As an example, consider "sefer", which means book. The plural is "s'farim". When the "im" ending was added the first vowel was shortened to a shva and the second became "a". Also "vav"s and "yod"s can change from consonant to vowels or vice versa.

So, I believe yod-hei in isolation or as a word ending is pronounced "Yah" as in "HalleluYah" or "Eliyah" also yod-hei-vav is pronounced as "Yahu" as in "Eliyahu haNavi". What I don't know is how to pronounce yod-hei-vav-hei. The vav is a particular problem. It could either be pronounced as "v", "o", "u", or even rarely as "vo" or "vu". If it is pronounced as a "v" does it take "a" or "e" as a vowel? And if it is pronounced as "v" does the preceeding hei take a vowel? All of this assumes that yod-hei-vav-hei is a true word rather than a symbol that stands for something else. You see I have many questions, so I say, "I don't know."

Oseh shalom bimromayv hu ya'aseh shalom aleinu v'al kol Yisra'el, v'imru amein.

ThePhysicist

posted 06-06-2000 07:20 PM            

Very short on time, so this will be a bit “dry”. Sorry.
But real quick, thank you Phys, and Old Shep for your help on other thread, I wanted to thank you over there, but have been really “slammed” lately.

Well… here goes. >

When I saw that the name in greek for Joshua in the "OT". was identical to the greek name for Jesus in the NT. I said... okay.. i get it.

In Greek; “Iesou” or Iesous.

The I in Greek is for the "y". (they have no "h", but put "e" that is pronounced "ay", the Greek has no "sh", so they put "s" (as they did with "Moses"/Moshe) etc.
However… it was the “Hebrew” pronunciation that I was interested in, realizing that when they went to “transliterate” they did the best they could due to the lack of accommodating letters between the two languages.

19 times; the name "Jeshua" in Hebrew is spelled "Yod, shin, waw, ayin".
H3443 Yeshuwa` (Aramaic) {yay-shoo'-ah} ¤ corresponding to 03442;; n pr m ¤ AV - Jeshua 1; 1 ¤ Jeshua = "he is saved" 1) an exilic priest who returned with Zerubbabel

>> 194 << Times; it is spelled "Yod, HEH, WAW, shin, ayin"
(aint that somethin?)
H3091 Y@howshuwa` {yeh-ho-shoo'-ah} or Y@howshu`a {yeh-ho-shoo'-ah} ¤ from 03068 and 03467; ¤ AV - Joshua 218; 218 ¤ Joshua or Jehoshua = "Jehovah is salvation" n pr m 1) son of Nun of the tribe of Ephraim and successor to Moses as the leader of the children of Israel; led the conquest of Canaan

I realize they say the pronounciation of it is "Yehshua".

However... look closely at the letters. there is no "waw" AFTER the shin.
As most know I always said "Yah shua" myself. some say "yeh", I say "yah", no way to prove who is correct considering, the "e" or "a" is an injection on our part. Please NOTICE the "H" after the Yod however.... for those that say there is no "H" for “Yahshua”. this is written 194 times vs. 19 time without the "h".

soooooooo my point? (smile) is it would seem to me, that it would be more "correct" to say "Yahwsha". now...
"how do we pronounce the "w"? well...
some say "u" as in ewe. and i see that often it is. but also i have noticed that often it is "aw" or “o” as in “ah”... I am "leaning" toward "Yahasha" in pronunciation. for what it's worth.

YHWH. Another "Thought" that has crossed my mind is....
(these are just sharing "my thoughts" you guys.. but would love comment.)

I am a firm believer in looking at the "physical" to know "the invisible things of Yah". (rom. 1:19 &20).

Now... in the physical... OFTEN we name our children after ourself.
ALSO in the physical, the "bride" takes on the husbands name.

I once heard some one say they stick with the vowels of "A,dam, and "E"ve for the tetra. ie; YaHWeh.
However... someone recently posted Eve's real name being "Havah".
soooooo... I am thinking it is POSSIBLE for Yah's name to be >
YAHAVAH. Being how “eve” was the bride representing us, and would take on the name of her husband. And his “word made flesh” to be >
YAHASHA or Yahosha.

Also in Deut 3:21 and Jdg. 2:7 it is “Yod, heh, waw, shin, waw, ayin” pronounced
Yahoshua, giving another witness to the waw being a “ah” sound. But the 2nd. Waw they have as an “u/ewe” sound.

any thoughts?

May Yah be magnified! always.
Love,
d'

Ps. Blue Letter Bible > http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/960349779.html#14

posted 06-07-2000 08:29 AM         

I have frequent (weekly or more often) fellowship with people (in organized congregations) with whom I agree. I also am in agreement with several people who post on this forum. Those who post here frequently know who those people are. My point was that there is often STRONG disagreement over very SMALL points on this forum. There are people here (certainly not me) who will attack very harshly the use of terms such as Christian or Chritianity.

I am seeking to convert NO ONE to my way of thinking. If I can help people with the use of Hebrew I will try. Otherwise, I just explain what I see and let it go at that.
I have been a believer for about 37 years with very stable beliefs for about 35 years. I have studied under some very good teachers during that time. The useage of the terms "believer" and "The Way" are well understood and I am not saying anything radical here. You call me "stiffnecked" because I do not immediately bend to your understanding. In other words, your beliefs should take precedence over my 37 years of study and the teaching of all the good teachers I have sat under. I think that's arrogance on your part. If you check a dictionary you will find that "faith" is given as a synonym for "belief". My dictionary also indicates that "believer" is a term applied to Christians.

Again, I repeat I am not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking, just sharing what I see. This thread does prove my point.

posted 06-07-2000 09:29 AM         

Please note in my very FIRST post on this thread, I said:

As another example, being part of a Messianic congregation, I prefer the name Yeshua (or Y'hoshua) as the name for the Messiah.

Thus, I was indicatng TWO different pronunciations and/or (basic) spellings for Messiah's name.

You said

19 times; the name "Jeshua" in Hebrew is spelled "Yod, shin, waw, ayin".
H3443 Yeshuwa` (Aramaic) {yay-shoo'-ah} ¤ corresponding to 03442;; n pr m ¤ AV - Jeshua 1; 1 ¤ Jeshua = "he is saved" 1) an exilic priest who returned with Zerubbabel

>> 194 << Times; it is spelled "Yod, HEH, WAW, shin, ayin"
(aint that somethin?)
H3091 Y@howshuwa` {yeh-ho-shoo'-ah} or Y@howshu`a {yeh-ho-shoo'-ah} ¤ from 03068 and 03467; ¤ AV - Joshua 218; 218 ¤ Joshua or Jehoshua = "Jehovah is salvation" n pr m 1) son of Nun of the tribe of Ephraim and successor to Moses as the leader of the children of Israel; led the conquest of Canaan

When you say (aint that somethin?) you sound like you are pointing out something that others don't know or forgot.

Remember that Hebrew letters are CONSONANTS except that yod and vav are sometimes "mothers of reading" (remember!) and indicate the presence of a long vowel.

Thus for Yeshua

yod ---> "y" with "e" as the vocalization
shin --> "sh"
vav ---> "u" (vav is mother of reading)
ayin --> silent with "a" as vocalization

For Y'hoshua

yod ---> "y" with "'" as vocalization
hei ---> "h"
vav ---> "o" (mother of reading)
shin --> "sh" with "u" as vocalization
ayin --> silent with "a" as vocalization

("'" = shva - a very short "e")

I don't know anyone who says that yod-hei-vav-shin-ayin is pronounced "Yehshua", so I don't know who the "they" are. It is transliterated directly from the Hebrew as either "Y'hoshua" or Yehoshua (when the fonts are available the "e" is frequently smaller and above the line. In the terms of a modern grammarian it is a "transition vowel")

Finally you say

Also in Deut 3:21 and Jdg. 2:7 it is “Yod, heh, waw, shin, waw, ayin” pronounced
Yahoshua, giving another witness to the waw being a “ah” sound. But the 2nd. Waw they have as an “u/ewe” sound.

Again this is just another spelling for Y'hoshua using a second mother of reading.

yod ---> "y" with "'" as vocalization
hei ---> "h"
vav ---> "o" (mother of reading)
shin --> "sh"
vav ---> "u" (mother of reading)
ayin --> silent with "a" as vocalization

There is nothing mysterious here. This is VERY, VERY basic Hebrew covered in the first few pages of a basic Hebrew grammar or text.

PLEASE get a text book and read it. Until one can read Hebrew script with a high degree of accuracy, one cannot do much of anything with Hebrew. I am sorry to say that, but those are the facts.

B'rakhot

posted 06-08-2000 05:14 PM         

Barukh Eloheinu, barukh Adoneinu, barukh Malkeinu, barukh Moshi'einu.

Atah hu Eloheinu, atah hu Adoneinu, atah hu Malkeinu, atah hu Moshi'einu.

Mi khamokhah ba'elim Adonai, mi kamokhah nedar bakodesh, norah t'hilot oseh fele.

Shalom v'khag sameakh

ThePhysicist