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Author Topic:   Upon (this) rock i will build my church
simpleman

Posts: 339
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 05-31-2000 11:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for simpleman   Click Here to Email simpleman     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Lou,

You wrote:

I agree with simpleman about those who think that by using a certain recital formula you are OK and have a free ride to Heaven. I'm not shooting for Heaven.


When did I ever say such a thing? What purpose do you have in attributing a statment to me that I never made? I do not think that any formula will get you anywhere. I also do not think that heaven is anywhere except where Yahweh is. I also believe that the meek will inherit the earth. Are you meek? I know that I am not always meek. Praise be to Yahweh for providing Yeshua to make a way for me when I fail to be meek. Does that mean I should be rude, pushy and prideful even more? Yahweh forbid. It is His kindness that leads us to repentance Lou.

Please do not attribute false statments to me again. This incident is forgiven.

Seventh Angel & Physicist:

Thanks for the encouraging words. I believe that I have much to learn from both of you as to how to put forth a clear position. I enjoy reading your posts very much. Be encouraged to continue in love to show forth what you believe to be true. Even if at times we disagree we may all benefit from the discussion as long as there is respect and honesty.

Shalom,
Simpleman

[This message has been edited by simpleman (edited 05-31-2000).]

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LoveforYah

Posts: 176
Registered: Jan 99

posted 05-31-2000 11:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LoveforYah   Click Here to Email LoveforYah     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Shalom

Lou, Yahweh bless you and keep you always...

I do not know what your back ground is or where you are coming from... what i see though is that for some reason you do not like those that call themselves christians.. i myself was one of them for some time but praise my Heavenly Abba Yahweh for allowing me to be HIS daughter....All of us have walked diferrent walks of life... i have to tell you Lou, Yahweh used a christian to show me the bilbe, Yahweh used a christian to show me Jesus and to show me salvation, i did not know my Father's and my Redeemer's name for the longest time and when it was actually revealed to me, yes, i did not want to accept for i thought it was "legalism". But Praise be to Yahweh and Yahshua, Praise be to my Heavenly Father to show me that HIS name is Yahweh and my Redeemer's name is Yahshua and those are the names HE wants me to use...i had a personal experience about that and i would like to share that with you, as you probably know from my other post i am a polish canadian... when we came to canada people had a hard time pronuncing my name, however, i did not want them to call me by english translation of my name (Dorothy) for that is not who i am... so, i MADE everyone say my polish name especially those peple that i knew i would be in contact for a while...so everyone knew me as Dorota, the message of Sacred Name came to our house... my husband was all for it,,, he just loved it... for me it was not so easy, after all it was Jesus who saved me, and i thought to myself if i tell a hundred or a thousand people what Jesus did for me everyone would know who i mean, but if i would say what Yahshua did for me nobody or a few would know,,,so that was my way of justifying myself...well, Lou, one day, my Heavenly Father very softly reminded me how important it was for me to be called by my name, how i would MAKE people know my name, what about HIM, what about the ONE that CREATED me, well, my heart broke, i knew that this is it, and from that day on i just came to love those names. So, i hope that you see what my experince was, today, when i talk about Yahweh or Yahshua, i do tell them that Jesus's real name is Yahshua, that HE was born jew and that is the name the appostles called HIM and when Yahweh bids i share my testimony....Yesterday, i went to see another client of mine who said he is born again... we had a little bit of conversation and i do believe he is of Yahweh, he has an experience with HIM just like you say you do.. You see Lou, we cannot make anyone see unless Yahweh will open the door, i know you would like everyone to see what you see, but Yahshua said, "many are called but few are chosen".
Another thing that i know today is that there are Jews or Messianic Jews that are agains Christians and Christians against Jews but what we, as the body of Messiah have to pray for is that HIS unity will be among us and let YAHWEH and YAHSHUA work...
Lou, i have learned some things from you, and i agree with Spying who says that we are all used by Yahweh, but we have to let HIM lead. Simpleman also stated some good points so please read and pray and HE IS FAITHFULL and will provide what is necessary. I know there is still a lot for me to learn and that every day is bringing more experiences just to see the wonderfull Glory of Yah for HE is the one who reigns for ever through HIS SON and our Redeemer and Teacher Yahshua the Messiah..... HalleluYah !!!

Yahweh bless you and keep you, Yahweh make HIS face shine upon you and be gracious unto you, Yahweh lift up HIS countance upon you and give you HIS SHALOM.

love you, your sister in Yahshua
Dorota

PS. Lou can you just see HIS face to shine upon you? I just love that

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The Seventh Angel

Posts: 618
Registered: Sep 1999

posted 06-01-2000 01:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for The Seventh Angel   Click Here to Email The Seventh Angel     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Hello Lou:

I see many people are reaching out to you with kind words. Though I was tempted to engage you in the style that I have become accustomed to, I will for the sake of kindness, speak to you without sarcasm this time.

I don't know what kind of Christians you were around that abandoned you because you sought to use the sacred name, but they are not the kind of Christians I have in my life. Perhaps you pushed them away, in an almost a self fulfilling kind of prophetic martyrdom. Perhaps it wasn't the use of the sacred names that turned them off, but rather what appears to be your Jehovah's Witness theology. You push pretty hard around here Lou, and it seems to be plain to most who are watching. I think most of us can see what appears to be the reason you were rejected.

The people I know, often respond with an, "I like that!" at the explanation of the name. If Christianity does start using the sacred name, it will be out of love for the name. Not because you told them they are a Hell (or grave if you like) bound sinner, swine eating, Shabbat breaking, Christian, on the side of Satan.

Hi Simpleman:

I think I'm learning from you too, and I will seek to implement it, though I can see you're way ahead of me in practice.

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DeAnna

Posts: 800
Registered: Jan 99

posted 06-01-2000 03:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for DeAnna   Click Here to Email DeAnna     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
My Dear Siostra lovely, lovely Dorota!

I just love you! Everyone in this WORLD could learn from our siostra Dorota!
You are like a breath of fresh air.
And I just had to say it.

May Yah bless you and keep you always, always, always.

Your sis,
D'

Love you too Lou!

I know you hate false doctrines. and I think people often take your candid dislike for a doctrine or an "action", as a personal insult. I used to have a hard time swallowing your posts sometimes (as you know, haha)... but usually, upon "re reading" them... i saw that you rarely said anything about anyone "personally", only what you thought was a "wrong action".
ie; like eating pork. LOL. Though we don't always agree, i've come to understand your candidness, and your dry sense of humor.
(which cracks me up all the time!)

keep your chin up bro.

love ya! D'

Hey Ed, and old shep and phys, and simpleman, and spying and imah, and cutter, and everyone!!! been busy... but I think of you guys all the time... your in my prayers often. kind of miss you guys. all of you.
been working on many articles.. so i'm not "gone". just busy.

Yah be with you all, love you all.
D'

PS. IMAH... pretty good post there bro.
I'm keeping up. (smile)

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Spying

Posts: 272
Registered: Sep 98

posted 06-01-2000 09:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Spying   Click Here to Email Spying     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Hi Simpleman,

The Gospel must be preached with hyssop; therefore, Lou does have his place. Confrontational and wounding words have a switching effect on the donkey which Messiah rides into Jerusalem so you have understood Lou correctly. It is only the unruly and wild donkey that will not tolerate and learn from him.

When I wrote of beasts of burden, I was primarily thinking of the ox, and specifically, the ox treading out the grain, that is, the true Gospel as it is being brought forth from Babylon. When you brought the ass or donkey into the discussion (I will show you how my mind works), I immediately said to myself, "That's so true of us. Messiah must ride in on us!" I will venture to say (and I have not talked to them about this issue) that ImAHebrew and DeAnna had similar thoughts. Then, Simpleman, the next thing I wanted to do was not sit down and write a reply to you, but rather, I desired to make a study on the ass. It is a huge study. I could spend days on it, in my own little world, having all kinds of fun.

The first scripture that I sought out was the statute that commands that if the first born is not to be redeemed, then it's neck must be broken. All of us have been part of the first born of an ass, and some of us have accepted the redemption that is in Messiah, but not all. Lou can look at someone, and he will start switching them to see if they have been redeemed (This switching really comes from Messiah). This switching wounds. I will tell you who is really good at that on this forum: Uriah7. Nothing gets past his close attention. He can tell whether someone has been redeemed from the curse of the Law, and so can Lou. They can tell through the telltale commands like keeping the Sabbath or not eating pork or catfish or using the physical names, and they can tell who is being sincere, and who is not. They can look through the small talk, the self justification, and they can clearly see the unruliness.

I can relate to you what the Tzaddikim believe concerning redemption. We believe that through Messiah we have been redeemed from the curse of the Law. This is the curse of the Law:

Deut 27:26
26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen. (KJV)

Clearly, physical Sabbath breaking, i.e. not resting from your work, buying and selling on the Sabbath, refusing to convoke with others on the Sabbath, does not confirm the words of the Law to do them. One is cursed because one is doing that which is wrong. Whenever I see resistance to the Sabbath, I see an unruly donkey who needs to be switched so that others can see his redemption, his willingness to now do that which is right through his conversion. Our unruliness wounded Messiah. Indeed, it took His life. There is not an easy way to communicate that to someone without wounding them in return (being critical of their action). I realize that I am not very good at that. I would have everyone be my friend. Even so, Uriah7 and Lou do not have that problem. Thank YAH for all of us.

Sincerely, Spying

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simpleman

Posts: 339
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 06-01-2000 10:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for simpleman   Click Here to Email simpleman     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Spying,

I agree that the wounds of a friend... but I do not feel any friendship or love behind Lou's wounding words. He is not the only person that I have come across on this forum that is like that. I only brought him up because you did. I likely should have just let the whole thing pass, but I have my problems too.

On the issue of the sabbath. I have only recently, within 3 months, begun to keep the sabbath in a complete way. I had tried before but for some reason did not see clearly "how" to do it. I have found a true blessing in the sabbath. I do not however use it as a test of someone's being part of Messiah. Many people are just not informed or have been misinformed. It takes time to change a behavior or belief that has been accepted for years. Many people believe (mistakenly in my opinion) that they have scriptural reasons that make the sabbath void. Others have been so turned off by certain sabbath keepers that they will not even listen to a clear argument. I celebrate the sabbath and I meet with a church on sunday too. I can not think that my brothers and sister in that fellowship are completely lost because of their not understanding the blessing of the sabbath. Yeshua had to correct the thinking of the Jews of His time about the legalism they had fallen into. In this day I think He would speak more about the Spirit of the Law and how it does not necessarily eliminate the intention of the Torah. At any rate, I will not try to judge who is Yahweh's and who is not. That is a dangerous position to be in.

You often speak of the physical having a spiritual counterpart. What is the spiritual counterpart to our physical sabbath? Is it only to show forth the reign of Yeshua on the earth?

Thanks for your switchings.
Simpleman

[This message has been edited by simpleman (edited 06-01-2000).]

[This message has been edited by simpleman (edited 06-01-2000).]

[This message has been edited by simpleman (edited 06-01-2000).]

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DeAnna

Posts: 800
Registered: Jan 99

posted 06-01-2000 08:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DeAnna   Click Here to Email DeAnna     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Shalom Old shep,

Sorry so long in getting back to you. Please forgive me. I was actually doing what Dear Spying mentioned. (I was just having all kinds of fun in my studies, here in my little world. lol.) I read what he wrote, and felt a little "pinch", and got woke up.

okay... You, dear Old Shep. > The answer is yes and no. There are many who indeed are wrong in their understanding but is the fault in the “literal, physical” word? No, there are several reasons, all from humankind, not from the word. <<

Yes... I agree it is not the fault of the litteral word, however in like manner, nor is it any fault of the spiritual word, when when we apply something, only later to see that it doesn't "line up" like we thought initially.

For there was a time when I thought "leaven" meant (risen) and I credited it as a "good" thing. because of the scripture "the kingdom of heaven is likened unto a woman who took three measures of meal, and one measure of leven, and combined it until the whole was levened" (going by memory). Then YermeYah showed me how this was not the case, and that leaven was a type of sin! (being puffed up) boy! big misunderstanding here on my part!

However... when we see that we have mistakenly lined something in a spiritual sense... it by no means makes void and null, the other spiritual witnesses that are quite plain. Example; >

David had a dear friend who loved him more then his own dad, yea more then his own life! His name was Johnathan. Then we see how Yahshua had one "John" that also was his "beloved". that would hug on him all the time. ("lo, i come in the volume of the book, it is written of me") Now... what does that mean to us? First, it means that we may have confidence in the NT. AND we may have confidence that Yahshua did exactly what he said he came to do. Then we may go one step further... For John(athan) means; "Yah is the grace giver", or Yah has graced, or Yah has given grace. another word for "grace" is "mercy". Now we see that these two individuals loved with all their heart. And their "name" means, Yah has given grace, or mercy. So in like manner, when we love Yah with all of our heart, we too are shown grace or mercy.

same thing with John the babtist. being a "type" of us, being able to "die with Yahshua, buried with him through babtism, and resurrecting with Him through His resurrection, through the faith of the operation. The operation of what? The operation of Death, burial, resurrection. (DBR). For one must "die" before one may resurrect. For this was a GREAT merciful thing toward us, written and purposed all along, in the perfect plan of Yah toward all who turn unto him.

for as Paul pointed out, he would have not known sin (which is death) had he not read "thou shalt not covet". For by Yah's law, are we killed. For without the condemnation taking place in our hearts and minds toward "Ourself". then we would ignorantly continue in this fleshly life thinking we were in need of nothing. For how can one believe they even need a "saviour" from death, if one does not perceive that they are at deaths door?

this was the problem with the Pharisees. For Yah said unto them "I've not come to call the righteous, but the sinners". and they were happy at this statement, for they thought themselves righteous. And yet later he says "Unless your righteousness surpasses that of the pharasees ye shall in no way enter the kingdom of heaven.
and yet in another place we read; "there is none righteous no not one".

For by the law came death. For the law is righteous in slaying us. and merciful too, in that one may not seek a saviour from death unless one is aware of their death. Once we realize that by the "letter" comes death, but by the spirit comes life. For when we become aware that we have no righteousness, and only Yah does have it, (Yah being pure spirit) and only He may "give it". Then we may be resurrected through the FAITH of the "operation" of > death, burial (the word in us) and resurrection, by the power of HIS hand, the word that we "eat" and bury inside of us, he does "quicken" that we may rise to a higher conscience, in that we no longer DESIRE to lie, steal, covet etc. yea... we come to hate the very thought of it. for we now know that these things kill. Thus Yah taking our heart of "stone" dead, hard, cold (grave stone, lol). and giveing us one of flesh; soft, living, warm, beating, working. through the power of mercy and love.

For Yahshua (the Word) "died" in the flesh, but LIVES in the SPIRIT. Just as "we" die in our flesh, but may live by the spirit. Yahshua being of a "prophetic" spirit. He is in the "earth" or the "grave" for three days. What could this mean? Why was 3 days so important? why must he remain in the grave, yea even go down into schoel and "preach" unto the "dead"? Because Yahshua is YAH'S WORD', and when we "eat" his word, it kills our flesh, (for we are/were walking graves) and for the next 3000 years, from the 4th. to the 7th. thousand year, Yahshua or the WORD was to be buried in us! OUR EARTH. Preaching unto us, though we are dead. therefore he preaches 'In us" to dead men. but when "HE" (The word) resurrects" IN US, then WE resurrect WITH HIM. Oh glory be!
Yah is merciful indeed!

For if we have not "died" in our conscience, being aware of our sin, then we would not seek a saviour. We would not seek Him! Nor look to him. For we would not have known that we needed to be "resurrected" from this sinful deadly state, if we did not know we were in this state.

What you showed forth about the "cross". You say was not "hidden". and yet, no where in the "carnel" word, does it spell it out about the four points of blood on the door post, being a "type" of the four points of blood on Yahshua (which is the Word, which IS the DOOR). being on the cross. When you came to "see" this thing. surely you found great comfort in the 'seeing' of it. for it was not about the "carnal" word back in Ex. about a 'carnal" lamb. but that carnal lamb was "symbolic" of the true lamb, as you have shown. This is something that "opened" up in your mind. it was not "seen" before. therefore it was indeed "hidden' from your understanding. for a moment. so i see our misunderstanding toward eachother, is simply a "misunderstanding" the use of the word "hidden". what you call not "hidden' , i have called "hidden". but now no longer hidden, in that it was revealed, to both you and i and all others that see this wonderful thing.
You yourself made mention of the "imaginary lines, making the cross with the blood".

Yah says about King Cyrus, that Yah himself "Holdens Cyrus' right hand. and he "annoints" him, though King Cyrus has not "known Him". And that Yah will go before him (Cyrus) and make the "crooked places straight". and that He (Yah) will give >>>

Isa 45:3
And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, YAH, which call thee by thy name, am the Most High of Israel.

Abraham was indeed given a promise of a "son". and he lived many years with the hope of that promise. (just as I had, through many years in the churches and reading the bible. I knew i was a great sinner, I knew I was dead. for I could not do, what i would do, but did that which was contrary to my conscience. I seemed to have NO POWER or CONTROL over my own actions. but of course i didn't. I WAS DEAD. how may a dead thing have any control? and I wanted ever so much to receive this son, that I might live.)

Then abraham finally "recevied" that promised son. This is how I felt when I saw the "gospel according to the scriptures" spoken of in 1 Cor. 15. the gospel being HOW the messiah died, according to the OLD TEST. and HOW he was burried and rose again the third day, and paul says it again.. "according to the scriptures". or the OLD TEST.

This is when the "word" came alive to me, in the same way that you speak about, how they were no longer just old stories, but had great meaning. And it was then, that I felt , i came to "know" him, and my life did begin to change. my entire perception in my mind indeed did change.
Then abraham "grew" with that son. and that son was his whole life. (Just as Yahshua was with me.) And then the day came that Yah said unto Abraham, you must "offer up the son". just as this day came for me not long ago, spoken to me through IMAH. I often felt sorry for abraham, at even having to go through such a "mental" ordeal, walking up that mount, knowing what he must do. When I came to realize that "I" must offer up the "son" that I had been given. I would have rather offered up my flesh (my carnal son) then to slay Yahshua. For Yahshua was my life through and through, and without him there was no life. Only then did I understand how we "died" with him. Truly, for days, I thought i'd never smile again. that I would morn until my death. but upon the 3rd day or so, I was reading John 1. And I did see how Yahshua was Yah's WORD. and suddenly the "son" that I did slay, truly "became" a LAMB. And I found myself before Yah, THE MOST HIGH. and how ALL THINGS came by HIM. And how HE Fulfilled HIS OWN WORD, just like He always said He would. and i found him not dead, though he was slain, though I slew him with my sin, and yet... through HIS great and endless mercy, He let me see, that He was ALIVE Evermore, and even moreso and with greater glory then I had ever knew.
For it was HIM all along. And I did rejoice at the knowing of it.

Now i do also see, "why" there HAD to be a famine, or a 'hidden' truth. for the death of an infant is far less painful then the death of a child say that is 3 or 5 or 10 etc. the longer you "grow" with a child, the harder the blow upon their death. For had I offered up Yahshua before I 'grew" to love him as i did, i can see how it would not have had the same effect. So ... even the many churches i went too, indeed played a viable role.
Even Yah's very famine that He ordained, I found to be merciful in the long run.

Isa 48:6
Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them.

Psalms 25:14 "The secret of Yah is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant."

Now I see why Yah had to "swear" by HIMSELF. and HOW He gives His glory to no other. What was once "hidden" from me, that I may have time to grow. For i could not "get" there by any other way. there are no short cuts.

Dear Old Shep. I hope you are able to see what I am saying. for even writing this to you has been even a further blessing to me. in that ... for a long time i have been a bit "ticked" at the churches of today, and at the many preachers for holding back certain truths that I felt were important. However... now I do see, that even this thing, has it's purpose, and that Yah's plan and his hand is not short indeed. so who am i to feel anything toward them. except faith in His perfect will. Truly only through Yah, are we able to look past the flesh, and see how all things come togeather. and when I condemn the preachers, I condemn Yah's will.

What you showed forth about the blood making the cross through the process of the slaying of the lamb at passover, was beautiful. For when I read the "carnal" word or drank the "milk", that I may grow thereby, it was great and powerful to me, even though I was young (fifth grade) and understood very little of what I read. evidently, what little i was able to comprehend, was powerful enough to keep me coming back for more.
I was "hooked". How could that be? because I "ate" the word. the word could not get on the "inside" of me, and be buried inside of me, in order to "resurrect" in me, had I not read it to begin with.

You say to me; DeAnna, I too see symoblism in the word. but not "every scripture". But dear Old Shep, if you would bear with me. Yahshua is Yah's word, And Yah' is pure spirit. And Yahshua says "Lo, I come in the volume of the book, it is Written of ME". And Yahshua (Yah's word) says; "My WORDS are SPIRIT and they are LIFE."

So truly, if it is "Written" of Him... then it cannot be about abraham, and david,and moses, and adam etc. but it is about HIM... and better yet... it is about HIM (Yah's word) resurrecting in US. that we may live. It is a wonderful love story.

Yah gets girl, Yah loses girl, Yah gets girl back!

Even Adam is a "type" of Yah in that he "willing" gave his life for his bride Eve.

I will go to post 'the gospel according to the scriptures" now. for upon "this" gospel, when i was 24, did my understanding of the scriptures start to "open" in a spiritual sense. though I "thought" i was "spiritual" before. But with each "revelation", I am able to see how Yahshua (Yah's salvation) does not come by "observation". (something that we may see on the outside of us).
for truly it comes from "within" (understanding/revelation). and by HIS own hand at that.
Now do I understand David, when he says; "O YAH enlarge my HEART that I may obey thy commands".

May Yah be with you always Old Shep. I have come to enjoy your posts. there was a time when I didn't. (but i knew in my heart, it was my own fault, not yours) Lately I have gleaned quite a bit from your posts. for you can run scripture quite well. and it is good for me when I read them. I do not think we are really that far apart in our understanding. really i don't. (about Yah). I know my understanding is not "perfect". for if it were then I would be perfect. and know fully how to love with no predjudice whatsoever. This may Yah per-fect in me. For if not... then who? For if he does not do this thing in me, cause a perfect love to abide in me, then there is no hope in all that I think i know.

from my heart,
D'

Oh.. ps. about "treasures in heaven". what you showed forth, was exactly what i was getting at. that it was not about the carnal material world, or about the praises of men, but about the heart of Yah. For if we give in order to receive praise of man, then what have we done? but if we give, because we want to be obediant, in that Yahshua says; give to all who ask, and turn none away." then our giving is not of the spirit to puff ourself up, but of an obediant heart. For when we feed, clothe, help, etc. any ... knowing Yah is all and through all, then our heart is toward him, and not for carnal gain.

in like manner... if i were to read the word only in a 'carnal" manner, then i would indeed slay a carnal lamb at passover, but we now know that this carnal passover, had a much greater end. thus my treasure is not in the carnal lamb, but my treasure is in the word of Yah.

and; the carnal showing the spirit of man... i was speaking of the carnal law, showing forth the sinful flesh. (man). but the spiritual "intent" is that we may live. by the power of Yah, and his righteousness getting on the "inside" of us.

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LoveforYah

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posted 06-01-2000 10:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LoveforYah   Click Here to Email LoveforYah     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Shalom D'

Praise Yahweh for HIS mercy and kindness, Praise Yahweh for HIS son Yahshua who teaches us Yahweh's ways and laws...

HalleluYah !!!!

Yahweh bless you and keep you D'

your siostra in Yahshua
Dorota

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Lou

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posted 06-02-2000 07:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lou   Click Here to Email Lou     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Hey simpleman, I did not quote you verbatim! That is what I perceived from your statements. Now if my perception is wrong, then let me correct myself. Are you saying that you believe all the opposite, then? I thought I made a fair assessment of your faith. BTW, I just remembered that Yahushua had the same problem. There were people always looking for any word he said that maybe used to condemn him. The part that I thought that I agreed with you is this:

I agree with simpleman about those who think that by using a certain recital formula you are OK and have a free ride to Heaven.

Oops… according to my ex-Christian faith, that statement is “doctrinally” correct from a Christian perspective. So in a sense I do not agree with you. Sorry. This is not the first time that I get burnt agreeing with anyone. I’m surprised that you are so touchy on a technicality but turn a blind eye to the core of my reply. The sentence about me “not shooting for Heaven” is my statement of faith. We were taught to pray, “Thy kingdom come”—not “take us to Heaven” like the Christians believe. I realize that Heaven is a great selling feature, but I want the truth. Hey, do I hate Christians when I say what they believe?

It is funny that you suddenly changed the context of my reply to your sensitivity about being misquoted. I am forced to read between the lines here.

quote:
I do not think that any formula will get you anywhere.
Why are you looking for a “statement of faith,” then? The “statement of faith” contains the formula of salvation. Please correct me if I’m wrong. That is the first thing a knowledgeable Christian looks for before joining a “church,” right? I know that Christianity is somewhat wacky about it, but please, give me a break. If you really love Abba Yahweh I am sure you will shed all references to idols when calling on his sacred name.

You seem to be the first Christian that has no idea where Heaven is.

quote:
I also do not think that heaven is anywhere except where Yahweh is.
I believe that Yahweh is everywhere. Don’t you? You take too many shots in the dark. I hope that your plans of going to Heaven after you die are back on the drawing board. How do you “draw the net”? Do you lovingly ask the “sinners” if they wish to go to Heaven when they die? I know the answer, but if I say it you may get your feelings hurt.

BTW, I skipped making a comment about your perception on why (initially) the apostles were not sent to the Samaritans, and to the Heathen/Gentiles… (It is funny, you left out “Gentiles”—care to comment why?) That must have been offensive to the Samaritans and to the Gentiles, don’t you agree? You seem to know why I am not sent to the Christians with any message and maybe you are right. I tell it like it is. I’m as diplomatic as I can. I never accuse any Christian I meet of being “swine flesh eater” or of being a “Shabbat breaker” right up front. Anyone calling on the name of Yahweh should repent from those transgressions of HaTorah. I point out in the Scriptures the prophetic utterances about those who eat swine flesh in the last days. I explain that Shabbat is the physical counterpart of that blessed hope we have of seeing HaMaschiach come to rule the Earth and give us that long awaited Shabbat/rest. On Shabbat we dress for the occasion as if it were this day that HaMashiach will come. He promised us an eternal Shabbat. Christianity at large doesn’t believe in the true significance of Shabbat. “Sunday” has no “spiritual” counterpart whatsoever. “Sunday” is deeply rooted in Heathenism. I think you know it.

Moja bardzo droga siostra Dorota,
I really love you. You have a good heart. Have you stop to think how beautiful would have been if Christianity knew and proclaimed the sacred name and Yahweh’s laws from its inception? But I believe that what happened in history has a purpose in Yahweh’s plan. Yahushua spoke of a night that was coming in which no man can work. He also said that while he was in the world he was the light of the world. (Please, correct me if I’m misquoting). I believe that you and I and a few others in this forum are beginning to see the light of his coming at the end of the tunnel. I hate no Christian. My wife is a Christian and I love her. Many of my relatives are Christians. I get along well with them. They are very upset with me because I will never attend a Christian worship service again. I feel sorry for my children’s children. They depend on their “Sunday” school teacher for their spiritual upbringing. HaTorah lays the responsibility of teaching our children on the parents. Oh well…

I have been portrayed as a “Christian hater” simply because I expose the dark side of Christianity not because I hate any Christian. I’m afraid that if Christianity will ever rule this country I’ll be the first one to be torched alive by the very “God” loving people who think that they are rendering a service to the Almighty. As I see it, the definition of “loving” in this Christian dominated forum is this: “We know the sacred name, but we also stick to the old time religion tainted in idolatry and we love it. If there is any change to the status quo it must be slow in coming wrapped with plenty of TLC so that we won’t feel uncomfortable in the idolatry that we received from our early church fathers.” Besides, what Christian or Jew in his/her right mind would like to see Christmas done away with? It is the greatest business success this side of the Olam HaBa? It is the greatest love story ever told, they say. Oh well…

May Abba Yahweh have mercy on all of us!
Shalom everybody,
Lou

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simpleman

Posts: 339
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posted 06-02-2000 09:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for simpleman   Click Here to Email simpleman     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Lou,

First of all let me clarify why I do not agree that what you wrote was a statment of my true belief. Again I will state that I do not believe that any formula will make you righteous in the eyes of Yahweh. I do not think that there is a magical "sinners prayer" to get you to "heaven". When I said that heaven is where Yahweh is, I was alluding to the fact that what some would call heaven will actually be the new earth which you wish to share with only non-christians. Please do not relate to me what you think are the beliefs of average christians. It is my experience that there are no average christians. As to why I ask for a statement of faith from spying, I think I have clarified my reasons in my posts to spying. I am sure that anyone that reads them will see that I do not look for the way to heaven as you think. I look for common ground. You make many shots in the dark yourself. Why don't you ask me what I think instead of saying what you believe I think? As for leaving out the heathen gentiles, that was not a purposeful omission. As for how I "draw the net", I offer repentance from this worlds system and a turning to Yeshua as King and Savior as the only way to avoid punishment, know Yahweh and find Shalom and joy in this life and in the world to come. Now before you think I speak of a "word faith, health and wealth gospel", understand that Shalom and peace can be in any circumstance.

Now I hope that clears up any misunderstanding you have about some of my beliefs. I do admit to a question in my mind as to if we "sleep" until His return or if being absent from the body is to be present with Him. Perhaps you or another here can help me clarify my thoughts.

I do agree that the average "church" is missing out on the blessing of the Sabbath. As I have stated before, I am new to this blessing myself. I have not had years of being turned away by people too steeped in tradition to see the blessing they are missing. Perhaps that is why I am still more hopeful than you about christianity. I consider myself a christian. that does not mean that I agree with everything someone spouts in the name of Christianity.

One more misquote to clear up and I think I will have gotten them all. I never claimed that you were not sent to christians. I did say that PERHAPS, Yahweh would not send you to christians. I am in no position to speak for Yahweh. His ways are beyond mine and He may have good reason to send you to christians. Just because I can't see it will not make it void. I also appreciate the correction on the "initially". That was a very important word I left out.

I am sorry to hear that there is such separation between you and your wife and the rest of your family. I will pray for Shalom for all of you. It must be very difficult to not worship together. Do you meet with a group of believers on the Sabbath? I hope that you have fellowship with some people of like mind. I still feel that at least some of what you speak comes from a deep hurt. This must cause you to misunderstand what I write to you. I believe this because the other option is that you twist my words on purpose. I know that we will likely never agree on the NT. I am sure that there are many other areas where you would seek to "correct" me. Perhaps we should first get a clearer understanding of what the other believes.

I had to add this after re-reading your post. Sorry it is so long.

I don't celebrate christmas or easter and I keep the sabbath yet my christian friends and family accept my beliefs and do not try to "love me out of them". My father is a minister in a non-denominational church and I am sure he thinks I am going off the deep end. I also respect their beliefs if they can show me why they hold to them. Even if I don't agree. Accepting that I might be wrong on any number of issues leaves me grace to accept other opinions if they are held honestly and on what the person considers a soild foundation. The only opinions I will not honor are those that are just accepted by tradition and not thought out on their own. That does NOT mean that I won't state my view of the truth when an opening arises. I just won't let the differences be the only areas of conversation.

Enjoy your Sabbath! I will be leaving on vacation soon so I may not be able to respond to you in a timely manner for a week and a half.

Simpleman

[This message has been edited by simpleman (edited 06-02-2000).]

[This message has been edited by simpleman (edited 06-02-2000).]

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Spying

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posted 06-02-2000 04:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Spying   Click Here to Email Spying     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Hi Simpleman,

I do use the Sabbath as a test. To me it is the test commandment. Keeping the Sabbath is very similar to wearing a wedding ring, and your keeping of it in a physical sense is a sign that you believe that it is YAH who made heaven and earth in six days (Yah worked), that it is YAH who rested (YAH made the Sabbath by resting), and that it is YAH who by resting is REFRESHED (Exodus 31:17). There is a basic pattern of activity here that is revealed through the keeping of the Sabbath. It is the same pattern that is revealed to each of us each day of our lives. Each day we work, then we rest (sleep), and then we awake refreshed or renewed. When you keep the Sabbath, you are in a position to recognize that this pattern of activity is also basic to YAH: YAH worked, YAH rested, and YAH was refreshed by resting. This all has great symbolic meaning. What is the work of YAH? Messiah said:

John 6:29
29 Yahushua answered and said unto them, This is the work of YAH, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. (KJV)

If one is doing the work of YAH, then one can enter the rest of YAH. If you are doing the work, and if you then enter the rest, who is it that ultimately is refreshed? This gives great hints about who YAH really is, and one can come to know YAH through these hints. As it is written,

Exod 31:13
13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the YAH that doth sanctify you. (KJV)

Why do we need to be sanctified? Maybe that need has something to do with our natural work? Messiah also said:

John 7:7
7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil. (KJV)

As it is written,

Ps 14:1-3
1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no EL. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2 The YAH looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek EL.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (KJV)

We need to be sanctified because our works are evil, or work is sin. Now, having done evil, how do we know if we are sanctified? Are we sanctified substitutionally through believing that Yahshua died in our stead as the world teaches? Is that what makes us holy? If the works of men are evil, and Yah is holy, how does our position in relation to YAH change simply because someone should die in our stead? If we are not changed from doing evil to doing that which is right, if we do not indeed become holy as He is holy, then it is YAH who changes, and a strong case can be made that it is YAH who undergoes repentance and conversion through the death of Messiah rather than the sinner. Suddenly, YAH is less than holy. Now, He appears to be more like a man, fashioned in the image of a man. How convenient this teaching for the world!!

The truth is, if you keep His Sabbaths, you do have opportunity to know that it is YAH who does in truth sanctify you. We learn by doing. If you do right, you are righteous. If you do what the holy do, you also become holy, set apart with them. All week long, we do our common work. Then we are commanded to cease from our labor and enter into rest. This rest is holy, totally set apart. It is different from our work, and we are to keep it different. We are to keep it holy. So, by keeping the Sabbath each week, we learn that we have victory over our work. We learn that we can rest from it.

Now, Simpleman, if you should take the time and thought to apply this principle to the spiritual, you could really begin to learn a lot about yourself and also a lot about YAH. OUR NATURAL SPIRITUAL WORK IS SIN. Sin is the transgression of the LAW. Sin is the hard bondage that we are born into. Can we enter rest with respect to our sin? The world says NO! That is why they say that you need a substitutional savior because you can't overcome all your evil works. Why, if you did that, you would be perfect, you would be holy, wouldn't you? And no one can be really be holy (sanctified), right? Wrong! This is the great lesson of the Sabbath. You, the sinner, can overcome your sin, and by overcoming, you, the sinner, can become a saint, holy as He is HOLY.

Satan does not want us to learn this lesson. That is why he would have us do anything rather than keeping the Sabbath.

What, then, does believing in Messiah have to do with entering rest? If you really believe that Messiah came into the world as a man, and that he did overcome this situation, that he did overcome Satan, the world, and his flesh, then you could possibly grow to believe that you can do it also. This is where the Cross comes into the picture. Through the Cross, you, a sinner, have touched the HOLY. You have been united with the HOLY. Did you really die with Him? If you through your sin did die with Him, then your work has ended, hasn't it? You have entered into His Sabbath rest, haven't you? Unless, of course, you really don't believe that you have entered into His rest, and then you, through your unbelief, continue to build up again your sinful self. However, if you have truly entered his rest (ceasing from your sin), then you will arise refreshed, won't you? You will arise to a newness of life in this physical life.

So, when I see someone rebelling against the Sabbath, I know that they have not entered into His rest; otherwise, they would repent. I also know that they do not believe in the Messiah that I believe in. Have a good Sabbath and a good vacation.

Sincerely, Spying

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simpleman

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posted 06-02-2000 08:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for simpleman   Click Here to Email simpleman     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Spying,

Thank you for a thoughtful and honest reply. I will not have time to digest it all now. I will be leaving right after the Sabbath for a nice vacation. I am truly looking forward to the break. If you would pray for us to be a blessing to others as we travel I would appreciate it. Traveling with 7 children is not always restful. Thanks for your good wishes for my vacation and my Sabbath. May you completely enter into His rest as you seek His face.

Goodbye for a while,
Simpleman

Lou,

I found our common ground in your last post. I too think it is imperative that parents teach their children. Not only the ways of Yahweh but all of the skills needed for this life. We home school our children and they are doing well above average. They are also the best behaved and most Bible Literate children that I know.

[This message has been edited by simpleman (edited 06-02-2000).]

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Lou

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posted 06-02-2000 09:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lou   Click Here to Email Lou     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Shabbat shalom, simpleman,
quote:
Now I hope that clears up any misunderstanding you have about some of my beliefs. I do admit to a question in my mind as to if we "sleep" until His return or if being absent from the body is to be present with Him. Perhaps you or another here can help me clarify my thoughts.
Most likely Sha’ul is saying what the Tanakh teaches about physical death and resurrection. We actually pass out while the rest of our body slowly decomposes. I don’t know if it ever happened to you, but some people in a moment of weakness pass out and remain unconscious for a period of time. In other words, when they wake up they don’t know how long they were “out” or what happened to them during all that time. That is exactly how the Tanakh describes our state of death. In our last moment of sense we die and in the next moment of sense we awake in the resurrection. Christianity teaches total conscience in Heaven or Hell while dead. No wonder, HaSatan teaches that we won’t die and everybody believes him! The Christian definition of death doesn’t square with the Tanakh. Our physical death is not different from that of an animal, except for our resurrection. We will resurrect, while the animals won’t. If I didn’t make my point yet let me say that Abel is not waiting longer for the resurrection than a person dying today.

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The Seventh Angel

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posted 06-03-2000 01:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for The Seventh Angel   Click Here to Email The Seventh Angel     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
I tell you Lou, someone's been reading one too many Watchtower magazines.

From; http://www.dtl.org/alt/comments/today.htm

Analytical-Literal Translation

"Positively I say to you, today ..."

Luke 23:43 - And Yeshua said to him, "Positively I say to you, today you will be with Me in the paradise."

The above is taken from my translation, the Analytical-Literal Translation (ALT). The "him" in the verse is, of course, the repentant thief on the cross. Someone asked me why it is the ALT puts the comma before "today" rather than after.

The person further pointed out that he had checked over 70 Bible versions and they all used the same punctuation. He wanted to know why. Below was my response:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The answer as to why the comma is directly after the first "you" is simple: The phrase "Positively, I say to you" or "Most positively, I say to you" (as it is translated in the ALT) occurs 76 times in the Gospels, always spoken by Yeshua. In the other 75 occurrences, the comma is ALWAYS placed directly after the "you." Moreover, in none of these occurrences would it make any sense to include the next word before the comma.

So after punctuating the identical phrase in the identical manner 75 times, for consistency sake, it would only make sense to punctuate it the same way the 76th time.

Added to this simple grammatical explanation is the fact that it would make no sense whatsoever to include "today" in the introductory phrase. The word is completely redundant and unnecessary if punctuated that way. "Positively I say to you today, …" When else is Yeshua speaking, tomorrow?

Furthermore, remember the situation: Yeshua is hanging on the cross. He is struggling for every breath. Every word He speaks would be difficult. So, after a lifetime of saying "Positively, I say to you" (pause), it would make no sense for Him to now, as He is struggling for every breath, to change His lifetime pattern and add the completely unnecessary word "today" before the pause. But after the pause, it makes perfect sense. There, the word does have meaning.

And finally, the colloquial equivalent to "Positively, I say to you" would be something like, "Let me tell you the truth." And I don't ever see myself saying "Let me tell you the truth today (pause) ...." In other words, no one today would include the word "today" in an introductory phrase. Again, it is simply redundant and unnecessary. And I doubt very much anyone in Yeshua's time did either.

Of course, there is ONE English version which does put the comma after the "today" in Luke 22:43 - the New World Translation, the "Bible" of Jehovah's Witnesses. But their reason for doing so is their preconceived theology, not grammar. JWs do not believe the righteous go directly to "paradise" after death. They believe people enter a state of non-existence at death, only to be "re-created" at the resurrection.

However, even in the NWT, every place else the phrase occurs, the comma is placed directly after "you." So the burden of proof would be on them to prove why the phrase should be punctuated differently this one time and to explain why Yeshua would have changed His lifetime practice while at the point of death.

So the reason the ALT and most every other version places the comma before "today" is consistency and simple logic. There really is no reason to place the comma after "today" - unless someone is trying to uphold their pre-conceived theology.

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LoveforYah

Posts: 176
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posted 06-04-2000 04:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LoveforYah   Click Here to Email LoveforYah     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Shalom Lou

Lou may Yah bless you for those beatiful words in the language that i have been brought up in. A tear rolled in my eye for i would have never thought that anyone would greet me with those words in an english "speaking forum". (sniff)
i love you too Lou... it is my Abba Yahweh who changes me for HIS glory only. Lou you've asked "Have you stop to think how beautiful would have been if Christianity knew and proclaimed the sacred name and Yahweh’s laws from its inception?" Yes, i have and it would absolutly be amazing to see so many people praising HIM. Unfortuanely that will never be the case for not everyone is willing. Not everyone is willing to give up their will and accept HIS. Yes, it is true that Yahshua was the ligtht then and i believe that HE still is the light. For it is HIM in us shinning/spreading the ligth to others. i was released when i read that you don't hate christians. To hate is to kill.... it is a very strong phrase that i myself try to avoid. Lou, you said that you feel sorry for your children's children (i don't picture you that old ). Yes, today's generation is sure diferrent then mine or yours.... but, please don't give up hope.... Yahweh's children are everywhere and who has eyes will see Yahweh's work in those people. Also, if one committs children unto Yahweh, Yahweh will provide for them what is needed. Lou, i fully agree that it is the parent's responsibility to teach children Yahweh's will....we, parents are responsible for bringing our children up... my prayer is that we will bring our children for the glory of Yahweh. the spiritual upbringing is for us to do, not for anyone else.

Lou, i am sorry that you are not sharing the same beliefs with your wife. i am praying that she will come to see the beauty of Yahweh and Yahshua just like it was given to me. It takes time....but once one comes to see it will be only because Yahweh showed and in HIS time HE makes all things beatifull....
Here in Canada it is only my husband, my daughter and i and the rest of our family is in Poland. They are christians as well but we're praying for them that they will see...This august my Abba allowed me to go and see my family, after 6,5 years i will go to see them again...i am praying that i will use every day for the glory of HIM, that they may see that i truly am with Yahweh...so Lou, pray for me that indeed i will preach what Yahweh wants me to preach...

Yahweh bless you and keep you, Yahweh make HIS face shine upon you and be gracious unto you, Yahweh lift up HIS countance upon you and give you and yours Shalom

love you, your siostra in Yahshua
Dorota

[This message has been edited by LoveforYah (edited 06-04-2000).]

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