posted 04-18-2000 05:56 AM            

My Friend, good day to you.

I have read some of your postings as well as their replies. And I must say that I have found them all most interesting and informative as well as truthful.

However, there is one topic that I have not seen, upon which you have commented. And that is the ultimate of pagan sacrifaces. That of the human blood sacriface to appease a god.

Within your understanding, do you feel that the G-d of Israel---HaShem---made of Messiah ben David the ultimate of pagan sacrifaces? When HaShem said unto His People Israel, "Do not sacriface your children."

I realize within the realm of the gentile church that it is stated "That Abraham's hand was stayed from sacrifaceing Isaac so as though HaShem could be the only one to make a human blood sacriface of His Son
to appease G-d and take away the sins---The Transgressions of Torah---for all mankind.

Do you feel that HaShem sought to confound paganism by scrubbing clean this ultimate pagan sacriface?
(Such as the church puts forth?)
Or is it, that paganism has confounded---deceived---manking into accepting this pagan rite?

Could it be, that this human blood sacriface was the first concession that was presented to the pagan, the heathen gentiles by the early church fathers, so as to win them over?

I would also ask, where in the Origional--the Old Testament, does the G-d of Israel state that He shall make of His Son a human blood sacriface to appease, to wash away the sins of all mankind?

Perhaps you do not desire to "touch" upon this "touchy" subject.
Should that be the case, I understand. For I too was once a christian, both as a Protestant and a Catholic.
I too at times have a "Christian Hang Over."

posted 04-20-2000 01:08 PM            

You have a whole bunch of good points in there. Let me share with you where I stand.

If salvation is in obeying HaTorah as Yahushua said, then why did he died so that anybody can be saved by "believing" like the Christians say? They even throw in Heaven for you! Never mind the Olam HaBa on this Earth. Never mind about HaTorah. Never mind that Yahushua said that the meek shall inherit the Earth. It is Heaven for you when you die, they say. I see something dysfunctional here.

I have the impression that Yahushua's death has another meaning having to do with his inheritance. I see plenty of Scripture in the Tanakh to support this position.

Yahweh declares himself to be the only savior. Without having to die!

Salvation is in the calling on the name of Yahweh. Which I do. I noticed that you prefer to call him by a nickname or alias given to him by men without his approval. How disrespectful can you get? Oops, sorry, this is another subject...

I see nothing wrong in believing everything what Yahushua said. He said to obey HaTorah to gain eternal life. Will Father Yahweh condemn us for believing what Yahushua said? Of course not!

Now, I do believe that Yahushua is HaMaschiach, and I'm telling you why. There is plenty of easy to understand evidence in the Tanakh that Yahushua existed before he was born as benYosef or benYahweh through the sacred Ruach, and that he bore the name of Yahweh before he was born. Many references to Yahweh in the Tanakh can be explained only in that light.

The documentation to support a virgin birth is very flaky. Anyway, I can accept it by "faith." It doesn't hurt. At this point, I don't believe that you must believe one way or another for salvation, otherwise the documentation and the demand to believe in a virgin birth would have been plainly stated in the Tanakh. We know that Yahweh can open a sterile womb of an old lady past the age of conceiving. So making a fertile virgin girl pregnant shouldn't be half that hard to believe, if one has to. Who knows how the sacred Ruach did it. Was Yosef's sperm involved at all? I don't know for sure, if so, then Yahushua is disqualified to be king. Unless I want to believe that Luke's genealogy is really that of Yosef. Then it is funny that a Goy would dig into Yahudim roots to come up with a working genealogy while Matthew couldn't. Anyway, I'm very cautious here. Somebody posted recently that Yahushua had Yosef as father, but really the sacred Ruach as mother, as the Ruach took over Miriam. I'm still open minded, though.

Sometimes I take a position, and then look for documentation to back it up. It shouldn't be that way. The documentation in the Tanakh is very simple as far a salvation and knowing Yahweh's will is concerned.

Eccl 12:12-14 * Be warned, my son, of anything in addition to them. Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body. Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear Elohim and keep his commandments, for this is the whole [duty] of man. For Elohim will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.

Micah 6:8 * He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does Yahaweh require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your Elohim.

Exodus 33:19 * And Yahweh said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, Yahweh, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Isaiah 43:11,25 * "I, even I, am Yahweh, and apart from me there is no savior." -- "I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more.

Psalm 119:132 * Turn to me and have mercy on me, as you always do to those who love your name.

Isaiah 55:7 * Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to Yahweh, and he will have mercy on him, and to our Elohim, for he will freely pardon.

Joel 2:32 * And everyone who calls on the name of Yahweh will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as Yahweh has said, among the survivors whom Yahweh calls.

I can go on for ever quoting salvation by Yahweh's mercy in the Tanakh. Honestly, up to this point I don't really need another savior. Yahweh seems to be sufficient. Don't you think so? Yahweh is not a teaser to keep everyone hoping for his salvation and not telling anyone that it will be at the expense of believing in a human sacrifice. So the death of HaMaschiach as prophesied in Daniel must have another meaning! Most likely it has to do with his right to an inheritance. After earning that inheritance that includes eternal life to enjoy it, and so on, he is in position to share it with "whomsoever he will." I see it all spelled out in the second Psalm!

Psalm 2 * Why do the nations conspire and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together against Yahweh and against his Anointed One (i.e. HaMaschiach!!!). "Let us break their chains," they say, "and throw off their fetters." The One enthroned in heaven laughs; Yahweh scoffs at them. Then he rebukes them in his anger and terrifies them in his wrath, saying, "I have installed my King on Zion, my holy hill." I will proclaim the decree of Yahweh: He said to me, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father. Ask of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession. You will rule them with an iron scepter; you will dash them to pieces like pottery." Therefore, you kings, be wise; be warned, you rulers of the earth. Serve Yahweh with fear and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry and you be destroyed in your way, for his wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

I want to be under this blessing! That is why I believe in Yahushua HaMaschiach. Yochannan the immerser, questioned Yahushua, "Is it you or must we wait for another?" I'm satisfied that he is the one. The other one is the anti-Maschiach, the antinomian, the lawless one, which BTW fits the description of a Christian.

I'm still looking into the full significance of Yahushua's death. Yahushua's death to me was the death of an innocent and righteous person. It happened not as a religious ceremony like they do with the animals at the Temple. For a sacrifice to be acceptable to Yahweh it had to be done on the altar at the temple, not "outside the camp." The animal had to be "without blemish" not full of all the blemishes in the world! So here is where I seem to crash against the NT. I'm a bit disturbed by Sha'ul's opinion written to the Hebrews. Now, of course, he is talking about "Jesus" so I'm not sure.

Hebrews 13:9-13 * Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings. It is good for our hearts to be strengthened by grace, not by ceremonial foods, which are of no value to those who eat them. We have an altar from which those who minister at the tabernacle have no right to eat. The high priest carries the blood of animals into the Most Holy Place as a sin offering, but the bodies are burned outside the camp. And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood. Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore.

Antiochius sacrificed a sow on the Temple's altar. Why didn't anyone think of doing something like that with Yahushua? That is if his death were supposed to have been "sacrificial" and in the fullest sense of the word legally acceptable to Yahweh. Now if he bore the sins of the world, he was full of blemishes and wouldn't qualify as sacrificeable. If the stake where Yahushua was hang were an "altar" it was obviously in the wrong place. I'm finding hard to accept the "sacrificial" bit. Yahushua died so that he can get the inheritance that he willed to himself when he appeared in a supernatural way to Abraham. Then he became a human being in order to die and get it. Then he died. Now he is alive and he owns the world, but it is HaSatan who is ruling it "until the day that iniquity will be found in him," then Yahweh says to him, "I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee." This didn't happen yet, but it was planned before the foundation of the world! Yahushua inherits eternal life along with the rulership of the whole universe, and he shares that with "whomsoever he wants to." Here is where "kissing the Son" makes any sense. Yahushua said that in order to inherit eternal life one must keep the commandments. Period. But it is all based on Yahweh's mercy at the judgment day, too. I believe in Yahushua HaMaschiach. The way you "kiss the Son" has a lot to do at the judgment day!

Proverbs 30:2-4 * "I am the most ignorant of men; I do not have a man's understanding. I have not learned wisdom, nor have I knowledge of the Holy One. Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!

Let me tell you that it is neither "HaShem" nor "The LORD" nor "Jesus"... the name is Yahweh and that of his son Yahushua, I think. Please correct me if I'm wrong!

This is the testimony of my belief which is subject to change as more truth emerges.
Seek the truth as I do, but don't follow me.
I may be dead wrong.

May Father Yahweh have mercy on all of us.
Shalom aleichen,
Lou

[This message has been edited by Lou (edited 04-20-2000).]

IP: Logged

posted 04-20-2000 06:46 PM            

and this posted by one who spends hours upon hours searching and reading the ECF, in hopes to find evil.. in hopes to say aHA! And puts forth great efforts to cause doubt in the heart of others toward the very fulfilment of what you quote~
Yes.. you "kiss" the son Lou, so did Judas at the very time he betrayed him!
I'm not calling you a Judas Lou... I'm trying to help you SEE what you are appearing like. And for SOME reason, i find you on my heart almost daily.

NO ONE SACRIFICED Yahshua! no one even KILLED HIM... HE LAYED DOWN HIS OWN LIFE, THAT HE MAY PICK IT UP AGAIN.

I suggest we all here do the same! We too must die! our own thoughts, theories and opinions.. our own thoughts of righteousness and our own ability to obtain it!
But turn to YaHWeH, and DEPEND upon HIM for the manifesting of His righteous laws!
And ASK that they be written on our hearts that we MAY Obey His word!

Micah 6:8 * He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does Yahaweh require of you? To ACT JUSTLY and to LOVE MERCY and to walk HUMBLY with your Elohim.

Not ONCE Lou, have i seen you post a testimony. Not once have I seen you share your walk in a way that gives others hope in Yah. You are so busy pointing fingers at the ECF and PAUL, and anything else that you don't care for written in the NT. that you only ROB others of their foundation and OFFER nothing in it's replacement but to suggest they do what YOU YOURSELF CANNOT!

You have "mentioned" in passing at one time being a christian. So I assume you at one time called on the name of Jesus. HOW did you come to call upon YaHWeH?
were there others involved? Did you go from Jesus to Yahshua over night?
And was it BY MERCY that you were even able? Or do you credit yourself with such a hunger for truth that you obtain it on your own? Not even realizing that if there IS a hunger for truth in your very being that even THAT is not of you, but placed there by the Father.

do you really think that calling people swine eating christians is going to open their eyes? would it you? Did it you?
Why do you not consider yourself?

You mention Yahshua in "passing", while He is barely luke warm in your heart!
You seek to discredit, when you should seek understanding. And if you say in your heart "I DO seek understanding, I ask for understanding". Then this is good, but do NOT seek to discredit when you KNOW you lack understanding!

It is one thing to "ask" others what they think of something when you have trouble with it's validity. There is nothing wrong with that. But you do not appear to be "asking" for understanding... you appear to have had your faith poisened and seek to poisen others faith, because you yourself have been robbed of it!

Yes... we have all been deceived. Satan "deceiveth" the WHOLE world.
Because He is the "ACCUSER", it is his JOB.
Yahshua did not come to accuse, rather show forth the Father, and HIS purpose and HIS plan. You think because you "speak" the name YaHWeh that you will obtain mercy and grace? You hollar syllables as if they are magic.
You say there is Salvation in Ha Torah? Where is it written to TURN TO Ha Torah?
But is it not rather written to TURN TO YAH? >>> THEN the keeping of Ha torah may manifest. NOT the other way around.

Your so busy looking at the "flesh", of a "human" sacrifice "without the camp", that you are unable to understand that....

His "resurrecting" from "death", is US resurrecting from 'death'. As you KNOW we are "dead in our sins". And ONLY by the FATHERS Power, may we be cleansed.
and "resurrect' from this deadly state. And IF we are indeed "dead" in our sins... Then "we" ourselves are "without the camp". As Yahshua said... Does the doctor go to the well? or the sick? Is there "sickness" within the camp? or without? The dead are not "within" the camp. The dead are "without". And all of that is showing that as long as you or I or anyone else... if we do not BELEIVE in the Father and HIS righteousness, then "we" are without. Did Yahshua ever credit HIMSELF of ANY WORKS?
Or did he not rather credit the Father for ALL manifestations of the works.

You say turn to Ha torah... I say turn to the Father, that Ha torah may be of use!

The fact that Yah wrote the ten commandments with his own finger TWICE seems to not impress you at all. Once on "his own" tablets, then AFTER THEY WERE BROKEN... He wrote them again on Moses "own" tablets, where THEN they did reach their destination >>> the TABERNACLE << OH.. gee.. what pray tell could that mean?
Not even swine eating Christians teach against the ten commandments except for the Sabbath, which they simply do not understand. But if they ask the FATHER for understanding, and BELIEVE He is willing to GIVE it to them... Then they will recieve.
But I don't see people getting others to ask the Father and Believe in His Power to deliver them. I see people pointing fingers and calling them Lawless, because they are still trying to get the Ten down, much less all the others.

Abraham was COMMANDED to sacrifice his son! Yet he lived. How?
by abraham's hand? by Isaacs hand? NO! But by YAH'S OWN HAND, did he live, and NOT "die the death", after all. Why? Because by Abrahams own hand he kept Ha Torah? NO! Because He B E L I E V E D Yah's hand was not short, and was able to give him life again.

I am sorry for you that you only have one eye opened toward the New testament part of the bible. and would rather be searching the ECF, for MENS doctrines, that you may have something to point at!

You dont' know how sorry I am for you concerning this.

Because if you cannot believe in Yahshua's "fleshly" resurrection, How pray tell can you believe in a spiritual one that must take place in us?
YES.. ALL of Yah's instruction is good, and right, and just! Since when was our flesh good, and right, and just? We are all but vanity.. taking credit or spouting allegations that we ourselves are guilty of. May Yah have mercy on the man, that has received His grace only to go and slay another.
May Yah have mercy on the man that does ask for his own depts to be forgiven Him, and yet requires the payment from the poor that ARE without.

I have read on this forum over and over, that "love" is showing people their error.
Yes.. that is PART of it... But showing them their error WITHOUT mercy, and patience, and true sincere hope that you may lead them to the Father, and NOT JUST THEIR SIN... is NOT LOVE. But is a "know it all". and a puffed up FAKE righeousness that is Not of the Father but of THEMSELVES.

But I suppose that pointing at the ECF, or the lack of evidence (in your eyes) toward the NT. or the fact that they say the name Jesus, and calling them a swine eating christian, is your idea of walking justly and with mercy! 'oy.

How dare you take some ones' "jesus" away, when all you have to offer them is a "maybe", there is a son, name Yahshua, but other then that I cannot tell you of him!
And don't depend too much on the ONLY book written about Him because well..
It just doesn't line up in my eyes so there you have it. Keep all 613 laws and you will have salvation regardless.

Well, pull out a gun and shoot me now! Cause what "hope" do I have in YOUR idea of things?

I would really like to know this of you?

Have you yourself fulfilled the law? Do you uphold Ha Torah?
Or do you think that "preaching" it, is good enough?

People act like if someone does not fulfill the passover feast, that they are just lost...
And have not recognised that people have not even been able to come out of LYING!

Nor will they ever, unless they ASK for a lying tongue to be kept far from them, and BELIEVE that He is willing to give this to them.

Do I call anyone a liar? NO! I say, i too had great trouble with this, and not until I believed that Yah was willing to deliver me from it, did it leave me. Do you see this at all?
I COULD NOT DO IT.... Maybe you have always been "false free", maybe I was just so evil that I could not see that others were not guilty of this. THat by THEIR OWN POWER were they able to stop. I don't know... I only know that I couldn't. Nor did I ever... but He did for me. And may I never forget it, lest i find myself back in my own dung.

May His peace come upon you, that you too may give it to others.
Get out of the EFC Lou... and back to the bible. please.
Don't you understand that only by Yah's right hand will people be delivered?
Did some one calling me a thief cause me to stop being one? NO!!!!!!!!!!!

Some one showing me that what i lacked was FAITH In Yah's mercy, and willingness to BRING me out of it, if only I would ASK HIM, Turn to HIM, that I may delievered!
do i now think I was delievered by my own hand? When all my life I looked to my own hand, and FOUND IT SHORT... But found Yah's hand Not short?

Why was Abels sacrifice of the LAMB acceptable and Cains of the EARTH not?

Because ABEL "offered" that which YAH CREATED, and Cain offered that which He Himself grew! What we ourselves "grow" is NOT GOOD ENOUGH.
We MUST offer that which YAH'S OWN HAND has created! not what we think we have created. ie; thinking by our own power we are able to walk up right.
"we" are of the earth Lou. And back to the dust we shall go... But all the "work", that the Father has "worked" in us, will return unto Him. So we best be ASKING for HIM to work a work in us, that WE may take part in what will be returned unto Him.

And causing more doubt in an already doubtful world will not deliver them.
Nor does it encourage faith in HIM. so what pray tell is in your heart?
I'll tell you what's in your heart Lou... frustration. And because you are frustrated, you impose it on others... Not on the man here that posted to you, He has called out to you, because misery loves company, and he identified with you. but on all others that read your posts, and this from one that calls on the Name YaHWeH!

not only you, but I as well... but only Yah can deliver us from this state. So ask Him too. And WHEN HE does... you will see that He indeed is the deliverer, and then you may show others.

You know... strange enough.. it's kind of like the wife that has no money of her own.. but only her husbands... so she must ask him for his own money that she may buy him a gift. Does not the husband know that his own money paid for the gift? But is he not touched that she thought of him?
Think about it... pray about it. Ask Him. and then ask yourself, why would He not give you this.

I am no body Lou... there is not a finger I can point that i myself am not guilty of.
But i feel like a voice crying from the wilderness. (not that i'm john or anything) But i can relate... There is nothing but jungle and flesh eating beasts all about me. And I cry unto Him... and by His own purpose and plan He does answer. And I just want everyone else to know... that He DOES answer. And He is NOT expecting you to deliver yourself!

If you notice the term "TURN UNTO ME, and keep my commandments."
For only by turning to Him are we able. We cannot "keep" his commandments UNTIL we turn unto Him. That is why it is in that order... and that is why anyone that is keeping any of his commandments are keeping them BECAUSE they did turn unto Him, and so he delievered them, just like He said He would.

One more thing... then I'll shut up. This is the TRUTH...
I LOVED pork! I really did. I grew up in the south with pig roasts.
I knew the bible said don't eat pork, but some how escaped conviction of it, for I had no understanding how it could be such a big deal.
But I DID pray and DO pray all of the time asking Him to deliver me from all that would be evil in His eyesight. To cause me, a pitiful weak excuse for a being, to walk up right that HIS name be glorified. not mine, but His.
Well... Lou... I never did receive a 'conviction' about pork. But instead, a friend of mine in "passing", starts telling me about the actual pig. and how if you push on their hoofs that green ooz comes out, because they are so un pure. She described the "nastyness" of the pig. Not that she was convicted of a law.. that was not the topic. we were simply talking about food. and diets. After her "discription", next time I had pork, i couldn't get that "green ooz" out of my head, and my stomach turned. Then again, and again... until.. I simply HAVE NO DESIRE FOR IT. don't you see? YAH changed the desire of my heart. NOT I... but HE DID. I did not "choose" to stop eating pork because I am just that strong willed. Or because for a year you have been calling me a "swine eating" christian. But because > IT < came to discust me. I had faith in Yah that he would deliver me from all that displeased Him, so "IT" REMOVED ITSELF.

Now is that too hard to chew?

Love,
D'

posted 04-20-2000 07:20 PM            

My sister, you have so rightly spoken. I believe the Spirit was bearing you along in that, because the fruit of the Spirit is LOVE!

I LOVE LOU! I want to see him free from any bondage of the enemy! I want to see him full of joy in Yahueh! Living a life like he does will not only hurt his spirit, but it drains the physical life out as well. What you place your mind upon is proven to make your body react the same way.

DeAnna, I thank you for pointing out the Truth of Elohim's Word. I ask you to continue praying for Lou with me, for I know we both truly love him as a child of Yah. Let us agree together in faith that he will return and stay in the Father's House of Mercy.

Lou, I am here for you! Messiah in me, I will do whatever I can to draw you unto Him!

"By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another" (John 13:35).

I love you all! Shalom b'Yahueh Zidkenu!

------------------
For Unity in the Body of Messiah,
NacharYahu [=] NacharYahu@aol.com

posted 04-22-2000 01:43 AM            

Let me start from the beginning. Reading your whole reply can be measured in hours, too, but Shabbat was made to fellowship and I'm glad because of that. It gives me something to do. I'll be giving you all my attention, today.

I'm replying your post in the sequence you typed it without copying it and pasting it.

Let me tell you the real motivation why I started to read the early church fathers. Contrary to your accusation, I was sincerely motivated to read the early church fathers soon after I discovered the sacred name. I few years ago I attended the feast of the Tabernacles at the Assemblies of Yahweh in PA and I was deeply touched when in the preaching a mantion was made of the devotion of the early church fathers to the Hebrew roots. It hit all my tender emotions when the preacher stood to pray behind the "altar" as he called the pulpit and prayed facing East saying that that was the way the early church fathers always prayed facing Yerushalyim. I have never seen or heard of anyone doing anything like that in my whole Christian life. So I was so eager to get a hold of all the books that are available on the early church fathers to learn directly from them. I was expecting to find the greatest wisdom that is practically untapped among the Christians. I couldn't understand why almost nobody was reading the early church fathers in the church. So, I downloaded all the books and did a print out. I have a 5 shelf bookcase to keep them. As I started to read great was my disappointment! Book after book was full of crap. Mind you that at that time I was still having a heavy Christian hang over. So from a Christian viewpoint I would accept a lot of things they said until I said, wait a minute, what am I reading? For any good thing that I read I had to read full descriptions of all kinds of Heathen worship. They spent so much time and effort detailing in writing the doctrines of the "heretics," and so on. I was discovering that the early church fathers had a real heavy Heathen hang over that was spilled all over their writings. I found no trace of any worshipful knowledge or acknowledgement of the sacred name, in any of the books that I read. Then I found the references on facing East to pray, but it didn't say that they faced Yerushalyim, they faced East to the Sunrise, I imagine. Then I looked in the map and I discovered that Greece and Rome and practically all the Goy nations of Europe are really northward of Yerushalyim, not due west. So if the early church fathers wanted to face Yerushalyim in prayer, like Daniel did, they should face in a southward direction. What I'm trying to say is that I went to the early church fathers in search of their wisdom, and I only found a lot of crap. I gave you only one example involving an otherwise infallible leader of an Assembly of Yahweh group. This is my most modest assessment of what I was reading in the early church fathers' books. I shared with you a lot of what I read. You know that a lot of what they wrote don't agree with the Tanakh. I hope I am not misreading anything out of the Tanakh myself. If I did. I wish Old Shep will apply a double measure of his tireless finger shaking at me. I'm beginning to wonder if the whole context of all that Saint Augustine wrote is in error. Firstly and foremost because he doesn't acknowledge the sacred name, and second because he endorsed in his writings along with the rest of the early church fathers the use of the name of idols to address the Creator of the Universe.

About "kissing the Son" -- it is a figure of speech. What "Judas" did was a physical kiss. To avoid confusion, I made the remark that the way you "kiss the Son" has a lot to do at the judgment day! OK now DeAnna, how would you like me to appear? I'm just as bad a Yeshayahu claimed to be, or maybe worse. I'm very bad as an example of anything. Are you looking for a leader? Remember that Yisrael was always looking for a leader. OK, if by any change I get to control the weather, see me again.

About how I learned about Yahweh. About 6 years ago when I was still a Christian, I was in a casual search of documentation on a small Christian sect by the name of "The Philadelphia Testimony." I tried to be helpful to a group of Christians in one of the places that I visited. Since I never heard about that sect, I looked all over and ran into a branch of the WCG, but it wasn't what I was looking for. One day I was watching on TV Elder Jacob O. Meyer of the Assemblies of Yahweh, Bethel, PA. It was the tail end of his program. He kept quoting Revelation 3:8 about Philadelphia and the sacred name. He mentioned Philadelphia a few times, but kept talking about Yahweh. I was sure that this must be the odd ball Christian sect that I didn't know anything about. So I called them and requested their literature. They send me a bundle for free. I quickly went over the literature and I thought that it was some odd ball Jewish Messianic group, not the Christian sect that I was looking for. So I didn't spend much time looking more into it because at that time I knew I had ALL THE ANSWERS. About a year later I was visiting the same church that had the problem with the "Philadelphia Testimony" sect and to save face I took with me all the material that I got on it including a few pieces of literature from the AOY at PA. It just happened that what I was reading in the AOY literature started to make sense. The subject and the information were so strange to me, but true. I couldn’t defend my position. I shared the literature with the brother that I was seeing and he got all exited about the discovery of the sacred name. I tried to calm him down. I was trying to help them out of one problem and I was creating another much worse. That's what I thought at first. In the same trip I really discovered the truth about the sacred name that Christianity and Judaism were hiding from public view for hundreds of years. The first out of ignorance and the latter because of "out of respect." Hey, it's funny but looking at my quotation I see that the Jews are all "out of respect" and that is why they gave Father Yahweh the pseudonym of "HaShem"-- at least it is not the name of an idol. Anyway, this group of Christians started to call on the name of Yahweh and Yahushua. They are asking me to visit them more often, but I don't. I honestly don't even want to think about people looking at me for an infallible answer. I'm still in the learning process I have a lot of questions and the answers I get from the Christians are predictable. As you probably know, I do have some reservations about the NT. I'm not questioning the reality of Yahushua, but the records were written many years after the facts and mostly by people who were not eyewitnesses. I have the big impression that there is a misconception about believing in Yahushua. Most believers believe "IN" him as an object and not for what he said. We should believe what he said! Sha'ul cannot quote Yahushua, he never heard him teach. He very seldom if ever quotes anyone else having heard Yahushua say anything. He didn't seem to get along with most of the apostles, and so on, and so forth. As human beings we starve for something to believe in, but lets make it as rational as possible. People perish for lack of knowledge, not for lack of faith.

I will study the preaching part of your reply and will probably answer later.

About your observation that I called them "swine flesh eating Christians" I do it after the example that Yahushua left for us. He and several others called the religious leaders of his day all sorts of names, from vipers to bleached tombstones. I never got that far, though. Christians love pork, anyway. I'm not really saying it of all Christians, but mostly of them who are leaders and ought to know better and yet are trying to pull a fast one in this forum to favor their Christian brand of faith.

Your prayers seem to be causing the right effect. I'm very much encouraged to continue sharing bits and pieces of what's in my mind.

posted 04-22-2000 07:01 AM            

First... I'm sorry for the accusation. I really am.
I had no right to assume what was in your heart. Here I'm always telling people to quit pointing fingers... 'oy, there I go again.. time to die again.. back to the Father I go...

Thank you for replying to me... was starting to wonder if you ever gonna speak to me again. and when you can change the weather... (LOL!!) you bet... i'll look you up. and say PLEASE FORGIVE ME... hahahaha .... no, you don't have to do that for me to say that. But you know what... if we had enough faith... we COULD

Did it really take you hours to read my whole reply? I am long winded aren't I...
There is just have so much to say! lol. Well, grab your coffee... (smile)

Yes... people do perish for lack of knowledge... but your wrong to think that people don't perish for lack of faith Lou...

De 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Isa 7:9 And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is Remaliah's son. If ye will not believe, surely ye shall not be established.

Hab 1:5 Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvellously: for I will work a work in your days, which ye will not believe, though it be told you.

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of Yah through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of Yah overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, our faith.

Mt 9:29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

Mt 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Yahshua seeing their "faith" said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

This is staying away from Paul, AND not even mentioning the many times Yahshua said: "thy faith has made thee whole" AND Thy faith hath "saved" thee, your sins are forgiven thee.."

Jas 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

And Yahshua even says to Peter that satan desires to sift him as wheat, but that Yahshua has prayed for his "Faith", and then says to Peter, "when ye shall be "converted", strengthen thy brethren.

Truly Lou, "faith" is unto salvation. and this is not even touching but "one", of the "believe" scriptures. and I only quoted a few out of hundreds, that speak of faith.
NOT including Paul.

Think about "what" Peter needed to be "converted" too. He was right their with yahshua following him... so there is something "different" here, other then just "accepting" the son. Think about what Yahshua said he prayed for concerning him.
he prayed for peter's faith.

You mentioned to me about Yahshua and others calling the church leaders names.
I am aware of Yahshua doing this a couple of times toward the Saduccees and Pharohsees, but never to the people Lou. (haha, as if they weren't people, but u kno ..)

I ask you to keep in mind that Yahshua "did" know their heart, unlike You, AND ME, not knowing yours... we really just have no right to stoop to that if we believe in Yah and that Yah made ALL THINGS... Yahshua said he numbered the hairs on our head for crying out loud... you can't get anymore detailed then that.

You also say to me; that although people 'believe' IN Him, they do not believe what He taught. Well, Lou... I just gotta call ya on this buddy...

This is what Yahshua taught > "Forgive, that we may be forgiven"
Judge NOT ( I know, i know, need to look at that myself.)
GIVE (not "throw") to all that ask of thee.
Turn our cheek, freely give what ye have been given. And Lou... you have been "given" His name. You really were "given" it. It was just handed right to you, not beat over your head, but "given" to you.

and believe, if you will believe, do you believe, because of your faith, when he saw their faith, oh ye of little faith... faith, faith, faith.

Look, I myself do not care for the ECF writings. But it just doesnt seem right to spend so much effort in casting stones at them. You searched them out, you saw what you saw... but the ECF is not the NT. and now that I see (thanks for the testimony )
that you do believe in Yahshua.. (sorry about the Judas remark too.)
And you do credit some what of the NT. I really do feel somewhat relief about that.
But when you get "tired" of searching the EFC... Please.. (I'm asking, so yur supposed to give me this.. hahaha) please do a study on "faith". Because "Faith" is where it's at.

Faith... will cause us to walk in the ways of Yah. Faith, will cause ha satan to flee,
Faith will heal the blind (not talking physical either, though that too). Faith brings us CLOSE to Yahweh. By Faith, we are "able" to DO that which we could not, without it.

Once you see how truly nessecary "faith" is... then you might understand more how important it is that we do not trample anothers "faith", but endorse it and encourage through "correct" knowledge. But can knowledge really do us, if we do not believe?

I don't think you need ONE WORD of paul to have salvation. But you do need faith.
and while you spend time tearing down Paul or the NT.. you are also tearing down peoples faith... faith that is much needed Lou. We really are in the end times...
I know people have said it for years... but things are "happening".
and I am quite convinced that we are now into the "latter rain", where things are going to be much clearer concerning the instruction of Yah.. but those that are without faith Lou, may not "get it"... so be careful with peoples faith... they need all they have and much more. We must not offend the little ones. We simply mustn't.

Yes.. tell the truth. yes, we may teach the law and all that is just in the eyesight of Yah, but NOT without faith... for when we leave the "faith" out, the law becomes a casted stone. and we're just killing people with it. Were beatin down the already beatin. Only by Faith, in Yah's WILLINGNESS to Cause us to walk upright.
Flesh can't do it Lou... you know that is true. But if people will Ask the Father to write His Laws on their heart, and believe that he is willing to do this.. then He will... and they WILL walk in His commandments... because it will be the "desire" of their heart.
but not until they ask, and believe. This is what we must put in peoples ear...
"Ask... believe... why wouldn't he... He is merciful to all that turn to Him...

"Psalms 119; 5 "O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
Then shall i not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.
8.. I will keep thy statues:O forsake me not utterly..
12... blessed art thou O Yah, "teach" me thy statutes

17.. "Deal bountifully with thy servant, that I may live, and keep thy word.
Open THOU mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.
20) my soul "breaketh" for the LONGING unto thy judgments at all times.

25) My soul cleaveth to dust: "quicken" THOU me acording to thy word.
27 MAKE me to understand the way of thy precepts: so shall I talk of THY Wonderous Works. (not our own works, but His wondrous works)

My soul melteth for heaviness: strengthen THOU me according unto thy word.

REMOVE from me the way of lying: and GRANT me thy law graciously.
I have stuck unto thy testimonies: O Yah, put me not to shame.
I will run the way of thy commandments, WHEN THOU SHALT ENLARGE MY HEART.

and it goes on and on.. "give me understanding"... make me to obey thy word...
REMOVE from me the lying tongue.. GRANT me thy laws... "Quicken me in thy righteousness" "my soul fainteth for THY salvation"
"THOU art my hiding place, my sheild: I hope in thy word." Hold thou me up, and I shall be safe: and I will have respect unto thy statutes continually.

You see... as long as we are not asking for this, and believe he is willing to do this for us... there is no hope of keeping them.. but HOPE comes ALIVE when we turn to Him and have FAITH that he is willing. Then no one has to preach the law, they will be walking according to his ways already, for their Faith in Yah, will make it so.

No one knows me here from Adam really... But I do testify, that this one Deanna, does keep more laws then she EVER dreamed of, and not once was it by my own hand, but I did beleive, and though years went by before it actually manifested, He did not forsake me... and I was soooooo bad Lou, I was so wrong in so many things, and I was such a con... that i didnt even know when I was telling the truth. And now...
if i try to lie, I litterally shake, and stutter, and before I can even get it out, I see that i done blown it, and the truth comes forth. and though I have felt a 'pang' that i even attempted, my joy in Him for protecting me from it... well.. is just overwhelming.
I cannot thank Him enough. I simply cannot. I sing to him all the time...

and by the time HE is done with me, I'll be able to say;

"I am perfectly and wonderfully made."

And so can everyone, and anyone, that asks.. and believes. Even if they are a christian. or jew. or gentile, none of that matters. it really doesn't.
If we're thinking our own hand is doing it... it's man made. and it's a lie, and it won't last. But His hand... goes all the way. If we just turn to HIM, and believe. He will "clean us up", and give us white robes. If only we would believe in His Love for us.

But... "love" is a hard thing to believe, in a "loveless" world. so Yahshua said;
"love eachother".

I really am sorry for acting all holier than thou to you. I didn't mean it.
In truth... when you didn't answer my response to you on the Paul thread, I thought maybe if I got "fired up", .. but still, I was wrong to try to provoke you. I should have known to keep my "own" thoughts out of it. Sometimes it's hard to know when it's the spirit and when it's your own mouth. But that was no doubt my own mouth. And if you like I'll delete all the accusitory remarks. And then people will read your post and They'll say "huh?".. lol.. but then they will read this, and say Oh.

I really do beleive He IS working in you Lou. Just like me.

Your sis,
DeAnna

posted 04-22-2000 01:37 PM            

I still say that people perish for lack of knowledge, not for lack of faith. Practically every single human beign has faith in something. We need to take the faith we have and build it on the truth that comes from factual knowledge. True faith is that.

posted 04-23-2000 04:40 AM            

http://www.eliyah.com/forum2/Forum1/HTML/000786.html

Zaqunra'ahyahuw

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posted 04-24-2000 01:57 AM            

”I would also ask, where in the Origional--the Old Testament, does the G-d of Israel state that He shall make of His Son a human blood sacriface to appease, to wash away the sins of all mankind?”
         THE, I’m not Lou but I think I can answer this question.
Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
         And we know who this refers to by this passage.
Act 8:32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. (See Isa 53:7-8, above)
34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
         While some people have different approaches, I find it helpful to actually read the scriptures before I express opinions about what they say.

Zaqunra’ahyahuw

[This message has been edited by OldShepherd (edited 04-24-2000).]

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posted 04-24-2000 11:45 AM            

I am encouraged by your questions to Lou, it is good to see that you have asked these questions. Most who accept, "hook, line, and sinker," all of the tradition that is taught by historical "Christianity," would never even consider thinking about the abomination involved with the "sacrificing of children," as they consider the sacrifice of Yehovah's Son. So your specific question, about the unjust sacrificing of children, should be considered when viewing Yehoshua's sacrifice.

One of the main reason's traditional "Christianity" has erred in their application of Yehoshua's sacrifice, is because they wrongly assume that the "taking away" of sin, which occurs in and through His sacrifice, is only applicable in the taking away of the "debt" of sin. They try to apply the unjust sacrifice/murder of Yehoshua as something that would "please" Yehovah in order to satisfying their debt. This delusional thinking goes against the WHOLE of Scripture. Yehovah is very clear about the way in which He will forget or take away former sin. In His mercy, He will overlook all of our former sins, when we REPENT (Matt 9:13, Luke 15:10, Acts 2:38, Acts 3:19):

(Ezek 33:12-20) Therefore, son of man, say to your countrymen, 'The righteousness of the righteous man will not save him when he disobeys, and the wickedness of the wicked man will not cause him to fall when he turns from it. The righteous man, if he sins, will not be allowed to live because of his former righteousness.'
13 If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done.
14 And if I say to the wicked man, 'You will surely die,' but he then turns away from his sin and does what is just and right--
15 if he gives back what he took in pledge for a loan, returns what he has stolen, follows the decrees that give life, and does no evil, he will surely live; he will not die.
16 None of the sins he has committed will be remembered against him. He has done what is just and right; he will surely live.
17 "Yet your countrymen say, 'The way of Yehovah is not just.' But it is their way that is not just.
18 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, he will die for it.
19 And if a wicked man turns away from his wickedness and does what is just and right, he will live by doing so.
20 Yet, O house of Israel, you say, 'The way of Yehovah is not just.' But I will judge each of you according to his own ways."

Turning from iniquity is what allows Yehovah to forgive, not the shedding of innocent blood. Yehoshua was sacrificed so that we would receive the BLESSING of TURNING from our iniquities, thereby, receiving the forgiveness of sin:

(Acts 3:25-26) Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which El made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first El, having raised up his Son Yehoshua, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Those who think Yehoshua's blood was shed in their place, truly deny their salvation FROM sin, as they wrongly apply the innocent blood of Yehoshua in satisfying Yehovah's justice. There are many Scriptures that speak out against the satisfying of Justice through the shedding of innocent and righteous blood. But blinders are on those who subvert the One True Gospel, and they have fallen under a strong delusion. The True Gospel teaches about a "sprinkling" of clean water, which produces a new heart and spirit within a believer. In that "sprinkling," we are saved OUT of uncleanness, and this is performed by El allowing us to truly see ourselves as we are. This awareness of our abominable and sinful state is made evident to us through our sacrifice of Yehoshua. This was the purpose of Yehoshua suffering so, so that we can be shown the horrific result of sin, and then turn from it. It wasn't that we should be shown that someone was dying in our place and satisfying some sense of justice. Consider what Ezekiel says about the New Covenant where we will receive a new heart and spirit TO DO what Yehovah requires.

Ezek 36:25-31) Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your Elohim.
29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.
31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.

The reason traditional "Christianity" wants to deny this cleansing which Yehovah is accomplishing THROUGH the death of Yehoshua, and then misapplying the innocent blood of Yehoshua to their debt of sin, is because they are clueless as to how the Grace of El works. They deny their participation in Yehoshua's death, and that is the key function of Sacrifice. The animal was NOT to die in the stead of the sinner, the sinner was to die WITH the animal. Of old, a sinner was to have realized their sin caused the suffering and death of an innocent animal, and they were to have been moved AWAY from their sin. But the blood of an animal did not have the sufficent power to do this, because who really values the blood of a beast? But according to the New Way, when one is presented with the truth that their sin did shed Yehoshua's innocent blood, then there is TRUE POWER to bring sin INTO REMISSION. But again, they have failed to properly understand this REMISSION of sin. Think along the lines of when cancer goes INTO REMISSION, what we see is that the cancer is NO LONGER active. It is still there, but it becomes dormant, and in the same way, a believer's sin becomes inactive, because of Yehoshua's shed innocent blood. It is a matter of motivation, not a matter of satisfying a blood thirsty "g-d.", that truly TAKES AWAY sin.

I would advise you to check out this post "Last post of page 8" concerning the Sacrifice of the Red Heifer. In the ritual of the Red Heifer, we are commanded to be sprinkled, and the fulfillment of that sprinkling is the PREACHING of the Gospel. Traditional "Christianity" has forsaken the TRUE sprinkling of the Gospel and substituted a false one in It's place. The Seventh Day sprinkling is beginning as we speak, and those who REFUSE to be sprinkled and then wash, will have their iniquity remain.

So it is good that the Spirit is leading you to question the abomination that occurs in the shedding of innocent blood.

Blessings in The Name,
ImAHebrew

posted 04-24-2000 12:03 PM            

quote:

---

Turning from iniquity is what allows Yehovah to forgive, not the shedding of innocent blood.

---

"Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins" (Heb. 9:22).

"You know that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your ancestors, not with perishable things like silver or gold, but with the precious Blood of Messiah, like that of a lamb without defect or blemish" (1 Pet. 1:18, 19).

quote:

---

One of the main reason's traditional "Christianity" has erred in their application of Yehoshua's sacrifice, is because they wrongly assume that the "taking away" of sin, which occurs in and through His sacrifice, is only applicable in the taking away of the "debt" of sin... Yehovah is very clear about the way in which He will forget or take away former sin. In His mercy, He will overlook all of our former sins, when we REPENT

---

"My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Yeshua Messiah the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:1, 2).

quote:

---

They try to apply the unjust sacrifice/murder of Yehoshua as something that would "please" Yehovah in order to satisfying their debt. This delusional thinking goes against the WHOLE of Scripture.

---

"Yet it pleased Yahueh to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Yahueh shall prosper in his hand" (Isa. 53:10).

"Consequently, when Messiah came into the world, he said, 'Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body you have prepared for me; in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure. Then I said, 'See, God, I have come to do your will, O God' (in the scroll of the book it is written of me).' When he said above, 'You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings' (these are offered according to the law), then he added, 'See, I have come to do your will.' He abolishes the first in order to establish the second. And it is by God's will that we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Yeshua Messiah once for all" (Heb. 10:5-10).

---

"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will renounce the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons" (1 Tim. 4:1).

------------------
For Unity in the Body of Messiah,
NacharYahu [=] NacharYahu@aol.com

"And now I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, protect them in Your Name that You have given Me, so that they may be one, as We are one" (John 17:11).

posted 04-24-2000 11:19 PM            

Being able to see both sides of the story helps others to know and learn the truth. Paul KNEW that after his departure, FIERCE WOLVES would attack, and NOT SPARE the flock. This goes hand in hand with his other warnings about how later on, men would renounce the truth, following deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons. Substitutionalism is the king of deceitful doctrines. It is narcotic in its effect upon mankind, soothing our consciences and making it possible for all to live with sin. Substitutionalism is based upon child sacrifice, the most damnable of demonic practices. The idea that Yehovah is pleased with anything other than obedience is a demonic doctrine. All these practices and teachings you support, and it's because you cannot possibly believe that you have been taught the wrong way all of your young life. You are wallowing in the same deceitful teachings that traditional "Christianity" has wallowed in for the past 1800 or so years. It is time for you, and all true believers to come out of that confusion, and help rebuild the Temple which was destroyed.

Now, I would like to help you come out of the confusion concerning several of the Scriptures which you misused in your last post. First, your quote of Hebrews 9:22 as meaning that the ONLY way in which sin can be forgiven is through the shedding of blood in a substitutional sense, is most definitely wrong. That is not the true meaning of this Scripture, at least the way you are implying. The word used in the KJV is "remission," and the proper belief here is that a sinner will not turn from their sin unless there are very severe consequences occurring, such as the shedding of blood, and especially when that blood is our own.

Just consider the motivations in our society that cause a remission from the failings and shortcomings of people. Take for example the alcoholic, he/she will not discontinue drinking UNTIL they are made aware of the horrible consequence of their drinking, and confess they truly have a problem. They have to either hurt themselves, or some innocent family member, or even and innocent stranger before they CAN begin a remission of their alcoholic addiction. All of these horrific consequences happened in Mashiach. We shed His blood through our sin. That blood was innocent. The shedding of innocent blood properly has the power to horrify any honest thinking and caring individual (Spirit filled). The shedding of innocent blood has the power to move the sinner FROM his sin. This is especially true if the sinner should begin to perceive that the blood which has been shed is also their own. Mashiach, in His death, made ALL of mankind ONE with Himself. If sinners died WITH Him, then their blood has also been shed. If Mashiach, through His grace made this death possible for ALL of us, who in their right mind would want to continue in their sin once they learn of this grace? Do you deny the shedding of your own blood in the death of Mashiach, NacharYahu? If so, then why do you fight against us?

When Mashiach died, it was murder. When we died with him, it was justice because we were all sinners. Justice has been served. It is justice when the guilty are punished. It is not justice that the innocent should die in the place of the guilty. It is an abomination. Think about it. There is nothing right about it; yet, that is what this world's "Christianity" teaches. Shame on them. Come out of them, my people.

It is easy for Yehovah to forgive sin. Shame on you for even implying that Yehovah might need to punish an innocent person in order to forgive you. There are many instances where Yehovah forgave, Yehoshua forgave, and even the disciples forgave, and it did not take the shedding of innocent blood, it took repentance. And besides all of that, Yehoshua said that WE are to forgive others, SO THAT our Heavenly Father can forgive us (Matt 18:35, Matt 6:14-15, Mark 11:25-26, Luke 6:37, Luke 17:3-4). How does that fit into your substitutional thinking?

Your next Scripture, 1 Peter 1:18-19, is a Scripture I would use to present my side of the debate, not yours. You fail to recognize several KEY words that Peter uses. The ransom we receive is a ransom "FROM the futile ways inherited from our ancestors." What are the "futile ways" that we have been RANSOMED AWAY from? Peter is not speaking about being ransomed away from the "penalty" of those "futile ways," which your would want the uniformed to believe. The ransom is an ACTUAL ransom FROM sin. A redemption FROM sin. Why can't you believe that? Why do you want to twist his words to mean something that isn't being said?

And then you continue in your delusion. You present 1 John 2:1 & 2, and try to apply it to mean that we do not have to confess our sin, and turn from it. Why else would you bring that Scripture to the forefront right after I said that He overlooks our former sin when we TURN from it. In quoting 1 John 2:1 & 2, you have not considered the whole context of what John was saying. Just look at several verses before and after:

(1 John 1:5-1 John 2:10) 5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that El is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood (lifeforce) of Yehoshua Mashiach his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 IF we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Yehoshua Mashiach the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of El perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

Confessing sin is PARAMOUNT for the sinner, if forgiveness is to be received (verse 9 of the above quote in the 1st chapter). Without confession, Yehovah is not faithful to forgive, but IF we do confess, He not only forgives, but also brings about the remission of sin in our lives---cleanses us from ALL unrighteousness. You see, I can take the exact Scriptures you present in a substitutional sense, and use them properly to prove the case that Yehovah is REDEEMING us OUT of sin, and not IN sin as your substitutional gospel teaches. This is why Yehoshua is the propitiation. His LIFE or BLOOD is the WAY in which sinners atone for their former ways. Becoming part of Him is what makes up for sin, NOT the shedding of His innocent blood in your place. All sinners have the opportunity to COME into this redemption and participate in the propitiation through Yehoshua. He is the propitiation, come and join in Him, and walk as He walked. This is pleasing to Yehovah, a SWEET AROMA which rises before Him.

Try to understand that it was according to this plan, from the very beginning, that Yehoshua had to suffer so. When the Scripture states that "it pleased" Him to bruise Him, it is saying that His plan was for Yehoshua to suffer for our sake, to BRING us OUT of SIN. This was the pleasing part, not that the innocent should suffer for the guilty. Yehoshua pleaded with the Father that IF there be ANY OTHER way, take this cup from Him, but it was according to Yehovah's will that Yehoshua suffer FOR us (not in our place), but FOR us in the sense that He was allowing this to happen to Himself to help BRING us or DELIVER us OUT of sin. It has nothing at all to do with Yehovah being "pleased" with the suffering of Yehoshua in satisfying His Justice. His Justice does not allow for punishing the innocent in place of the wicked, PERIOD:

(Ex 23:7) Keep thee far from a FALSE MATTER; and the INNOCENT and RIGHTEOUS slay thou NOT: for I will NOT justify the WICKED.

This Scripture, along with many others, cannot be broken. Your gospel doesn't break this Scripture, it completely SHATTERS it. Our Gospel allows for this Scripture, along with many more, to remain completely intact. Your gospel also defies logic. Our Gospel dispels deception and falsehood, and causes a turning from sin--true redemption and remission. The choice really isn't even close, and it's sad that such a battle has to be waged for the truth to come out.

posted 04-25-2000 04:23 AM         

In my journey’s I have heard it said that it is a Lioness who knows how to
RRRRROOOOAAAARRRRR lovingly. Good ole righteous anger from the heart of womb-mon. (Psssst, You ever wonder why we were silenced for so long?) Ok, I won't go there.

Lou, keep sharing brotha, there is wisdom in your journey as well as all others. We are all Sons and Dawtahs of Yah seeking HIS Imperial TRUTH. You are who impressed my when I first arrived. I always love a great rebel truth-revealer. Truely that is Yah's Image, a rebel against world and wrong in fullview. (grin)

Greetings and Hola Hails to all

The fruit of the Spirit is Love, yet the Sword of Truth cuts to the very marrow of the
bone. My people perish because of lack of knowledge. But, by faith we are justified.
Sacrifice and not sacrifice. Working on our salvation as well as knowing that Yah plays
the significant role? Either/or, either/or, either/or........Opposing doctrines, Opposing
doctrines. What about all of the ‘WORD’?????

“Two ears but they cannot hear the two stories in one.”

IAmAHebrew,

I loved your post, I always do. Your explanation of substitutionalism is Bless-ed. Yet, when I read NacharYahu’s post and you see these scriptures stand alone, we can see how easily the Masses have been decieved. Yashua certainly knew the blindness of man when he said, “Forgive them, they know not what they do.” Anyway, again I loved your post.

One certainly cannot be partial with the ‘Word’ of Yah. The Fullness and Balance is a Valient Quest. Thanks for your knowledge. One must absorb it in its entirety, as I will keep saying, “Rightly dividing the ‘Word’. You do this so well. However, we are now left to consider another dialectic when examining the Fullness.

Now, I find this to be a very interesting lesson that we could all actually go through
together as brethren and sistren even with the constant divisiveness of either/or doctrinal arguments. The first crucial ingredient would be to find things to help us agree rather then disagree. However, there are still things being revealed in these times, that seers will share and trumpet blowers will announce. Who ever said that we ever come to the end of learning about Yah who is an eternal omnipotent being? Prophecy is still fulfilling. But back to either/or.

For example, D'yahna mentions Faith and Love. I am all for Love, but we must then also redefine love. That was tough love
that D’yahna did put forth. And Lou’s Truths are often times cutting like a two-edged
sword, and another version of tough love, but Truth still. Who ever said that sanctifaction was a nicey nice process? I come with a Sword, saith He.

We are dealing with doctrinal divides. Also, remember what was said about the Disciples that were preaching with a different agenda and intention and the answer given was “What does it matter how the Gospel is being preached as long as it is.” Or, that one should receive the Word with readiness but search the scriptures night and day to see if these things are so. Or that Donkeys will speak and Elijah walked naked and barefoot for three years. Yah sometimes has radical ways of getting through to people. In the last days we are told to put on the armour of Yah.

Two things go on here that I can see. Some are trying to increase their knowledge, wisdom and overstanding, while others are trying to increase their Love and devotion. Others are following Law while other’s insist it is abolished. If we stop for one moment and take a good look at Yahshua, we see a flesh being who sought to please the Father and profound the world as a radical, with his power, miracles, retreat from worldliness, walking with one robe and one pair of sandals, healing the sick, and bringing hope to the oppressed, condemned and
downtrodden. He who told the rich man to sell all and follow him. Rise up Yah people. In the same One Spirit of TRUTH I tell you of the deception and tell you to shake the delusions away and re-cognize (re-learn) this whole thing. Ask Yah to clear your brain of lies and give you TRUTH. This is what I
did. Ask for the Wisdom of Solomon. I begged for Righteousness and Love. I started from scratch, didn’t lean on the theology and
traditions of man. Of the making of books there are many, but there is only One Spirit of Truth who honors those who HUNGER and THIRST for Righteousness.

ImAHebrew quoted: “Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that
were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for
your abominations.”

Bless-ed Holy Love. Yes, hunger and thirst and weep and repent. This cannot be denied.
For is our freedom in Yashua a cause for us to sin? Unless we weep and repent, seeing
our evil ways, loathing that captivity of the flesh, we shall never rise to the Father’s
will........
The changed inner man............
His righteous journey to the Kingdom within.
I find the greatest scripture of Yashua confirming what your saying is Matt 7:21-23

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

We must certainly search the scriptures for the Father’s Will.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in
thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful
works?

Does this not sound like Christian Church? All these Holy works and miracles in
Yashua’s Name, but Yashua says he doesn’t know them.

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

This word inquity means ‘lawless’, iniquity workers.

Yes, “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”

This ain’t no joke business. Mankind including ourselves are in a mess. We all need to foward daily in the internal cleansing. Yashua came to open the veil so we could turn toward Yah once again. Conquering sin and death, another action word.

Now righteousness may come through knowledge, faith, works etc. for Truth reveals
itself in mysterious ways. For it is truely Yah who draws us to repentence by his love. I
see very clearly your sprinkling IAmAHebrew, because I called it tastings all these years.
I saw the journey like a carrot dangling before a horse. Each time I conquered a sin, more Glory and Grace and Faith manifested. Do I think this would have happened if I did not
hunger and thirst for righteousness? No. By a tasty food of sight (each seeing, and Holy
visitation, a gift of seeking, hungering and thirsting) , Manna from heaven that feed’s the dying soul unto perfection and liberty, we are lured lovingly foward.

And the Love that is required for the Healing of our friends and neighbors and strangers we meet, is given from the Most High. Human love does not equate with Agape Love. They are extremely different in nature. Yah’s Agape Love is only manifested by the indwelling Spirit of Truth. It is not a human work that creates it. It’s the hunger and thirsting and seeking and yearning for the Yah Presence that finally brings an indwelling and a begotten one of the many born after the First Brethren. What I am saying hear is that we play a part in fulfilling the Father’s Will in us although all the Spiritual manifestations, progress and gifts are not at our hand. All things work together to raise us up. I have a saying, “Ain’t nothing
goin’ on but lesson’s and bless-in’s.” You either growing or Restin in the bless-ins.

When I was a Christian they taught me a doormat kinda love where you let your enemy
trample all over you. Did you ever see Yashua act like Minnie Mouse? He tore up the
Temple Merchants, cursed a fig tree, sweat blood in anxiety of the death sentence that
was his Divine Destiny, in order to show forth the Way. This was brought so clearly by
IAmAHebrew.

TRUTH is the key factor and Truth brings sanctifaction, Truth sets a soul free, Truth cuts at the very marrow of the bone, dividing asunder even flesh from Spirit. If we not have the Spirit of Truth indwelling, then we are still outer people that operate
by external rules and laws hoping for inward forgiveness. The Internal man is one who
knows the Kingdom of Yah within his heart, not just mind. Knowledge and Love and faith and works combined. This is
the marraige of the Lamb Within. Yashua marries the Sh’hkinah and they take residence
within - the anointing. The Mind of Yah, the Heart of Flesh with the Law written upon it, the Spirit of Truth guiding and nurturing, clean hands. All these things are promises of the commands.

The next thing I would like to mention is that Believing may get us going, but arrival and a knowing faith keeps us in the Victory position. Walking with Yah is a living breathing reality. Unto Salvation and Righteousness.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the
mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Believeth unto salvation - This is an action and an arrival. A command with promise.
Confession is made unto salvation - This is an action and an arrival. An Order and a promise. The bible is full of these. But IAmAHebrew eloquently explained this also. So, on the topic ‘Sacrifice’ and ‘Repentence’ and ‘Knowledge’ I close with this scripture.

Hbr 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth,
there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

No either/or...........Fullness
Knowledge, Wisdom and Overstanding
Faith Love and Charity
Law, works, and repentence

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Bless-ed Love
In HIM
Iyahna

posted 04-25-2000 12:16 PM            

I'm not sure why you feel the need to, but you repeatedly pigeon hole me, because I have simply disagreed with your beliefs. I am not part of any denomination, so you should stop attacking my beliefs as being "codified" by a certain denomination, when that isn't reality, and that which you speak against isn't necessarily my belief.

If you read all of my posts in the other threads you would see that I agree, with the scriptures I quoted, that we are delivered out of sin. We must confess and turn from our sin to receive the forgiveness already purchased for us. We are redeemed unto righteousness. Your error is in thinking that it is our works which cause the righteousness--the truth is that our works only evidence the righteousness.

"But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace" (Rom. 11:6).

You implied that Yeshua's death only covered our past sins--the point in quoting 1 John was to show that He died to cover all of our sins, past, present and future. You imply that our repentance is what saves us. Scripture says that repentance allows us to receive the forgiveness that is already there.

"All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name" (Acts 10:43).

You continually repeat like a parrot your theory that Yahueh didn't need to see justice served, when there were several scriptures in your face that show otherwise. Why do you brush them aside? What do you gain by clinging to your belief?

"Yet it was the will of Yahueh to crush him with pain. When you make his life an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring, and shall prolong his days; through him the will of Yahueh shall prosper" (Isa. 53:10).

Your posts are always full of flowery philosophy, and as a token, you toss in a scripture here and there to "back it up." You try to interpret the New Covenant with the Old Covenant, instead of the other way around! The New Covenant brought new revelation! In other words, your use of Old Covenant passages first to create a new doctrine shows your source of error. We cannot fully understand the Tanach without the Brit Khadasha, nor without the ministry of Messiah's Spirit.

"They said to each other, 'Were not our hearts burning within us while he was talking to us on the road, while he was opening the scriptures to us'" (Luke 24:32)?

Is your "gospel" simple? Is it devoid of fallen human reasoning? Is it a gospel of grace and mercy, or of works and self-justification?

"Do not deceive yourselves. If you think that you are wise in this age, you should become fools so that you may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, 'He catches the wise in their craftiness'" (1 Cor. 3:18, 19).

"And we speak of these things in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual things to those who are spiritual. Those who are soulish do not receive the things of God's Spirit, for they are foolishness to them, and they are unable to understand them because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Cor. 2:13, 14).

You show me where any repsected leader of the Assembly has taught what you hold dear, and things will change. Until then, you are speaking "in human wisdom," not understanding things because you are "soulish" and not "spiritual." Until then, the whole of the Church's history, from the beginning, condemns your teaching as heretical.

Messiah also told us to look at the fruit of prophets. Since we can't agree on scripture interpretation (even though the Church has for 2000 years disagreed with you), I ask you: is the belief you are propogating producing good fruit?

Are you seeing people born again, and experiencing joy, peace and righteousness in the Holy Spirit (Rom. 14:17)? Are the signs which Yeshua spoke of following those who believe like you do (Mark 16:17ff)?

I can tell you that I've grown up seeing people all over the world respond to the Gospel that I believe just like the people did in Acts. Great joy arises (Act 8:8), people's old lives die, while the new Christ life takes over to live a life of righteousness in Yahueh (2 Cor. 5:17). People do those things which Messiah promised: they love their neighbors (John 13:35), they are baptized in the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues (Acts 2:4), they heal the sick (Matt. 10:8, Luke 10:9), they produce fruit evident of repentance (Acts 26:20). They do all these things by believing into Yeshua Messiah (John 5:24), and receiving His forgiveness through faith. They don't "work" to produce this fruit, it's a natural byproduct of faith in Yahueh through His Son (John 12:44).

So, I ask again, if your belief is right, where is the fruit?

quote:

---

When Mashiach died, it was murder. When we died with him, it was justice because we were all sinners. Justice has been served. It is justice when the guilty are punished. It is not justice that the innocent should die in the place of the guilty. It is an abomination. Think about it. There is nothing right about it; yet, that is what this world's "Christianity" teaches. Shame on them. Come out of them, my people.

---

You continue to try to judge Yahueh by your own fallen intellect. You cannot fathom that He has something called Grace.

"On the contrary, we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Yeshua, just as they will" (Acts 15:11).

Grace is undeserved mercy. And this is what He has bestowed on us through the sacrifice of His Son. It is justice when the guilty are punished, but it is mercy when they are freely released from their punishment.

"Since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Messiah Yeshua, whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith. He did this to show his righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over the sins previously committed; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies the one who has faith in Yeshua" (Rom. 3:23-26).

Instead, you wish to merit your own salvation, which has been the lie from the beginning, being propagated today by the New Age movement.

"For, being ignorant of the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking to establish their own, they have not submitted to God's righteousness" (Rom. 10:3).

We were freed from our sins by the Blood of Yeshua, not by our own works.

"And from Yeshua Messiah, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and freed us from our sins by his blood" (Rev. 1:5).

You can only run from scripture for so long before your error is pointed out. Your philosophy is nothing new. No, it is the lie from the beginning of time. You seek to justify yourself apart from Yahueh, and then become His equal on your own--just as you have repeatedly shown in your posts along with Spying.

Where have we seen this before?

"But the serpent said to the woman, 'You will not die; for Elohim knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like Elohim, knowing good and evil'" (Gen. 3:4, 5).

I have learned, I will no longer preach Messiah crucified where ears are not open to hear it. You stand condemned by your own admission--I am praying for your soul, my friend. I love you with Messiah, and do not wish to see you walk this path out you are on.

"There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death" (Prov. 14:12).

May His Grace light up your heart. I leave it with Him to do the softening of that heart--if you submit to Him, you will thank yourself in eternity. I love you, my friend, and my witness has been given. Continue on if you wish, but it will be for nought.

------------------
For Unity in the Body of Messiah,
NacharYahu [=] NacharYahu@aol.com

"And now I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, protect them in Your Name that You have given Me, so that they may be one, as We are one" (John 17:11).