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Author Topic:   Lou----I have a Question for You
DeAnna

Posts: 800
Registered: Jan 99

posted 05-04-2000 11:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for DeAnna   Click Here to Email DeAnna     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Hey 7, Hope all is well with you.

Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

you > Notice any key words in the above verse? Tell me, If Yehsua, and the HS are exactly the same, no difference at all, why does he call him another?

me > okay... > 14:17 > "the spirit of truth, (now keep in mind that this is the comforter that the Father will send.) "whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him:
>>But YE KNOW HIM, Because HE "Dwelleth" with you, and SHALL BE IN YOU.


Now... Who is "dwelling" with the diciples at this time? Why do they "know" the spirit of truth? The spirit of truth has not been "out poured" yet... so Who is dwelling "with them", that they "Know"? Yahshua! and He Shall be IN YOU.

Well... unless He ascends back up to the Father which is pure spirit. He cannot very well pour out His spirit, now can He.

Jhn 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you
"from the Father", [even] the Spirit of truth, which "proceedeth from the Father", he shall testify of me:

me > And who did He say was in Him? The Father.
"it is not I that doeth the works, but the Father in me, He doeth the works.

you > What does the above verse tell us? Why doesn't he say,"I'm going to come back as a spirit and testify about myself?" Why does He use words like "I will send," rather than "I will come?"

Me> and I give you John 14:18
18: "I will not leave you comfortless (as in, without a 'comforter")
I will come to you."

don't you see 7? Everyone keeps looking at the "flesh", but He kept saying; "it's not I, that doeth the works, (this flesh) is the what's INSIDE this flesh that doeth the works.

Well, now see... here you have it. in John 14 he says the "Father will send"...
Now He is saying "He will send". that which "proceeds from the Father".
What is he sending unto the diciples?
His spirit. The spirit that was in Yahshua was the spirit of The Father.
ie; "the spirit of truth".

And the spirit of truth dwelled in Yahshua, if it hadn't, He would have been like any other lost soul. But He wasn't, because inside of Him, was the "spirit of truth". Take the spirit of truth out of Yahshua, and you are stuck with merely flesh. but it's not about "flesh", The Father is Spirit, and we must worship Him in "Spirit" and "truth"... hmmm... "spirit of truth". And He did resurrect a "quickening spirit", now he may have resurrected flesh too, I DON'T KNOW. So don't harp on me about that, or get mad...
but i do "know", that He did resurrect a "quickening spirit" too.

You know how in Acts the first chapter, how they watched Yahshua go up into the heavens on a cloud? And how they were looking up into the sky?
And Two men, in white apparel say to the diciples >
1:11 > "Ye men of Galilee, "why" stand there gazing up into the heaven?

notice they are asking a question.. "why are you doing this"?

it goes on... > "this same Yahshua, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

okay, now bear with me 7, okay... (you asked, )

IF He resurrected "flesh" (or only flesh) and he was going to come back the same way... then it would be "right" to stand there gazing into the heaven. For if He left in flesh on a cloud in the heaven. Then He would come back, in flesh on a cloud from heaven.

so why do the men in white apparel ask them "Why do ye stand there gazing up into the heaven?

a "resurrection" is a "coming forth with change". this is why when we plant a "seed" (it's dormant/asleep/dead) and we "bury" it. it does not resurrect one big seed, but a tree, or flower or what have you, but it takes on a "change". That is why when Yahshua, (or the spirit that dwelled in him) "resurrects" in us, "we" take on a change, and the "old" man, that was "buried" resurrects a "new man" or with "Truth" abiding in him. Now you can say "when the spirit of truth" resurrects in you, then you take on a change. that's fine. it's the same thing. Yahshua's spirit was the spirit of truth. But he had to resurrect a "quickening spirit". (maybe flesh too, but definately a quickening spirit as well.)

do you know of any other time that Yahshua showed himself to 40,000 people all at the same time BEFORE He resurrected? But he did after.

When he walked by the 'way' with the diciples.. did they know who he was? nooooo...
not until HE "revealed" himself, did they know who he was. THough they were talking with him, walking with him, they did not know who he was. Until he revealed it to them.

soooo... He did "go up" in "spirit". on a "cloud". and he returns in "spirit" on "our cloud", or our brain, our mind/heart.

IN the tabernacle in the wilderness... Yah came down as a "cloud". and sat in the "most holy place" on the "mercy seat".
Now... if you were to study the tabernacle. (and I would just like to note that Yah took "12" chapters to give in great "detail" the tabernacle pattern and all the vessels there of.)

You will find that our "head cavity" lines up perfectly with the "most holy place".
and our "brain" is a "grey like mass", and resembles a "cloud" quite well, because it has no "shape or form" just like a cloud doesn't. our brain takes on the shape of whatever "container" it's in. And the "throne" of the Father is the "mercy seat", so when you want to search out the Father's will, a good place to start would be go to the "mercy" in your heart/mind. right?

The holy place lines up with our "chest cavity". where our "heart" is.
Now when Yahshua was crucified, the vail that separated the "most holy" from the "holy place", tore in twain, making them "one" compartment. showing forth that when we receive the "spirit of truth", (which is the very spirit that was in Yahshua, which is the spirit of the Father) then our "hearts and minds" become one.

where as before, our heart may be good, but our minds were not, but receive Yahshua or His spirit "in us", causing our hearts and minds to form togeather making them "one".

see before our heart "knew" it was wrong to lie, and we didn't want to lie, but our mind would not get in line with our heart. nor can it, until they become one, which can only happen with Yahshua's spirit in us. As far as the "spirit" of truth testifying to "Yahshua" as in when Yahshua said "me". Is the spirit of truth testifying to the revelation of what he said, and Why he did all that he did, .. So "testifying" to Him, is simply receiving an understanding of what the whole 3 1/2 years of the ministry was all about. While in the flesh.

Look, you can have your scirpture. okay... you can say that he continues in his own flesh.. even though He said He was returning to the father which is "pure spirit". But that's okay... the main thing to realize is that what you call the "HS". Is the spirit of truth, and is the same spirit that dwelled in Yahshua (now granted, we may not have the full measure of it like he did, for the Father gave Him of His spirit (spirit of truth) "without" measure. but it is "measured" unto us. and as we "grow", and go through our "DBR's", and we seek that spirit of truth within us... then we are given "more". But Yahshua didn't have any other spirits running around Him, 7. see what i mean. Yahshua says "I am the "truth".... the way... and the light.

The Father is spirit, those that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit, and in "Truth".

and we are receiving the "spirit of truth". That is why both Father and 'son" dwell in us, because we were GIVEN some of THEIR spirit. which is the "spirit of truth".
Anyone with out the "spirit of truth" > appearing to them; listening to it, manifesting it,
is not of the father.

Now what spirit did Yahshua have in him? "i am the truth"...

There is only "one" spirit of truth. and a spirit of iniquity. So all that have the spirit of Truth in them, do indeed have "some" of the Father and Son in them. And the more we learn of "them", (not ourselves) the more of "them" (spirit of truth) manifests in us.

That is why i say we all have him. We may not all "receive" Him, but We all have that "gut", that still small voice inside of us, telling us what's right, that "spirit" of truth.
but rarely do we listen to it. and if people don't "listen" to that "spirit of truth" in them, then even what they have, will be taken away.

Showing others how to "listen" to that "gut", that still small voice, that "truth", deep down in their gut. Is how we "hear" the testimony of Yahshua. ie; the spirit of truth.

then they too will become "truthful". We all know when we are doing wrong... but some just don't listen to that "voice". that truth that is buried deep inside them. but...
but some do not "seek" to hear it. but instead they listen to the world, and not their gut.

That is why Yahshua said "seek" and ye shall find. die, and you shall be risen.
Why? because if we "die" to our own carnal thoughts, so that we may "hear" the spirit of truth... then we resurrect "truth-full".
So learning how to pay attention to that 'portion" of the spirit of truth, that has been poured out on all flesh, is how we get "more" truth. When you are faithful to little, you will get more. that kind of thing. Yahshua had the spirit of truth without measure. we recevie the same spirit, in "measure". and what ever we do for others, will be measured unto us, and whatever we do "against" others, then this measure will be against us, and some, if not all, "truth", will be taken away from us, leaving us without. soooooooo, listen to that spirit of truth, that gut, that "knowing voice", and more will be added unto you.
"practice makes perfect".

you > It's a sharing! Don't try to get this into your mind, it's finite and can't take the strain. <

"all things are possible with the Father"

with love,
D'

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ImAHebrew

Posts: 286
Registered: Sep 98

posted 05-04-2000 11:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ImAHebrew   Click Here to Email ImAHebrew     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Shalom Sister DeAnna,

I too was overwhelmed with tears as I read your words. Our love for you is gigantic. It is hard to even begin to express the emotion and gratitude I felt WITH you, as you so powerfully gave the testimony of the Gospel. You do SEE, and WE are ONE in HIM. When Yehoshua opens up the mind to fully grasp the significance of His death, it is a Glorious event. It's something you never forget. For the rest of our lives in this tent, His death is a memorial that we have been delivered OUT of sin, and I can see you will not forget that. Blessings to you. You have blessed me, Spying, and ALL other believers in Yehoshua.

I could barely sleep last night (waking up constantly, praying and thinking about your request), and I want you to know that we will take steps very shortly to accommodate your need. Spying and I talked this morning, and we want to discuss this with the Brethren, and then with you in more detail. Make no mistake, your request will be accomplished.

I thank Yehovah for His Good Spirit that He has poured out here on You, and Iyahna, Seventh Angel, the Old Sheepherder, ThePhysicists, NacharYahu, and all the others who have heard His Word, including Spying and myself.

Blessings IN The Name,
ImAHebrew

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Spying

Posts: 272
Registered: Sep 98

posted 05-04-2000 11:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Spying   Click Here to Email Spying     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Hi Old Shepherd and Seventh Angel,

Let's be reasonable. Why do both of you continually appeal to those whom you consider to be experts in order to determine what you believe? Even more so, especially when it comes to language? We are all experts in English, and we find ourselves agreeing on very little; eventhough, we have a common language and can plainly speak to each other through that language. How is it that you think that we could come to agreement on a language which is not common to any of us simply because one of us appeals to an expert? Is there a greater expert than Messiah? He said:

John 10:14-16
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. (KJV)

John 10:27
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (KJV)

DeAnna has just demonstrated to you living proof that Messiah's words are true. What greater testimony do you need? Look at what she is willing to do, and watch and learn from what she will do. You see commitment. You see a motivated individual, and you don't understand it. Indeed, because you don't understand it, the same puts fear into your hearts. Her testimony and her actions are not based upon an expert understanding of any language. DeAnna is hearing His voice. I know because I heard the same voice. I was horrified by what I had done to Messiah, and wild horses could not have keep me from being baptized again. I know, Seventh Angel, that you have dealt with cults your whole life. Why has Messiah drawn you to deal with cults? Why have you been drawn to deal with us? Could it be that you also are hearing his voice, but you just don't fully know it yet? That is what I believe about you. The same for you, Old Shepherd. I think you are also hearing his voice. Someday, it could very well be that wild horses could not keep you both from being baptized again.

I suppose, fellows, that we do have to get into the Greek. You are not going to allow me to avoid it, are you? I will, but not today. Now, don't take this personal, Old Shepherd, but is this not how you say it, "No kool aid today for me thank you!"?

I give thanks to my Father for you all and especially today for the voice that my Sister DeAnna has heard and is following.

Sincerely, Spying

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ThePhysicist

Posts: 428
Registered: Jan 99

posted 05-04-2000 12:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ThePhysicist     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Greetings Seventh Angel

I was just thinking about what constitutes an "honest" discussion about the Scriptures.

It is entirely possible to do Bible study without reference to Hebrew or Greek. I did Bible study for years without using Strong's, Vines, BDB, etc. In fact, I didn't even know what they were (actually I had heard of Strongs!), but I believe my studies were valid and very profitable.

BUT - when one seeks to add authority to ones interpretation by invoking Hebrew and Greek then one must answer questions regarding those languages in kind. It is not "honest" having invoked Hebrew or Greek, when challenged to "hide behind" the HS. Language authorities must be answered by language authorities. It's just common sense.

Blessings

ThePhysicist

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The Seventh Angel

Posts: 618
Registered: Sep 1999

posted 05-04-2000 02:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for The Seventh Angel   Click Here to Email The Seventh Angel     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote

Thank you for that Physicist. That's what I see missing around here "Common Sense!" I also share on the Jewish/Christian boards. What's funny, over there the difference in beliefs is greater, but they have the common sense and intelligence to realize when a logical point has been made? I hate to say it, but I enjoy my discussions there more.

DeAnna, you know I love you and care about you, but you have got me to wondering. It seems your beliefs have changed since we first met. I look at what you write now, and I'm going down the list of your beliefs, and I see a smorgasbord of cult thought in your thinking. As far as your understanding of YHWH, I can't seem to make out if its New Age or Sabellian. You say you don't differentiate between the Father, Son, and HS, so I'm thinking oneness, yet when you go on to further explain this, you start sounding more like IMA and Spying, and your beliefs appear to be saying, the only thing that separates Yeshua from us, is he had a fuller measure of what all of us have.

Let me ask you to further clarify your point, by telling me who Yeshua was before he came to earth. Did He preexist? Do we preexist? Explain to me how he is different from us. Is the only thing that separates him from us in your mind, him having more of what we're all capable of having? Do you think the statements made by the Apostles about him being the creator, et. Could be made about you, or I, if we simply had the spirit poured out on us more?

Now allow me to take the points you were making about Yeshua being a Spirit, post resurrection, which is Jehovah's Witness doctrine. The example you gave about not being recognized by the two disciples after the resurrection? look at this closely;


Luk 24:15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed [together] and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.

Luk 24:16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know

DeAnna, you're trying to make the case that they didn't recognize him because of his new shape. Wrong Answer. It was because of their eyes. Look what it says about their eyes when they finally recognized him;


Luk 24:30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed [it], and brake, and gave to them.

Luk 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

DeAnna, are you meeting with Jehovah's Witnesses? A person doesn't come to the conclusion that he was unrecognized by the disciples because of his shape from reading the text, because if you studied the text with any degree of concentration, you would have noticed it was because of their eyes.


Next, You have a problem in Acts with Yeshua coming back in like manner. Now, I along with nearly every believer out there believes He will return in the flesh, in the air, in the clouds. That's why you wont see me abandon the faith for a counterfeit. I've already been told what the next big event is. The Moonies would love more than ever to get that verse out of the NT, since they believe Rev. Moon is the return of Messiah. They have to allegorize the clouds to mean people. It's kinda funny seeing what you do to the verse. It could certainly be a useful interoperation for most cults. Maybe some of them will pick up on it, and use it. Christianity won't however, because there is a much greater degree of textual integrity within Christianity than the cults.

And this is my overall point. Yes, we look to the HS for guidance. If that was all he wanted us to do he wouldn't have left us with the Scriptures. YHWH enforced strict copying procedures for the Tanakh. He made the NT available as the most copied, closest to the originals piece of ancient literature of all time. When the printing press was invented, it was done so to print Bibles. And the Bible is the most printed, translated, distributed, best selling book of all time. This is no coincidence.

Now why did YHWH go to all this trouble on the account of the Bible? Because he knew, in the future, people would come forward and say, "Thus saith YHWH" when YHWH had not spoken to them. So he gave us an objective base that lays out what our beliefs and actions are supposed to be like, and He said,

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Now DeAnna, when the guys, that have in fact studied, by learning the languages of the bible, the method for interoperation, and the historicity of the manuscripts, comes to an almost unanimous opinion of a text, and when your opinion isn't even in the top ten possible interpretations, you can do one of two things. You can study to the same degree they have, to see if there is a possibility that you can prove yourself right. Or you can forget about your objective base, grow a prophet complex, and think that YHWH is only speaking to you. That it doesn't matter how much these guys have studied this, you're still right, because the HS is speaking to you and not them.

If you do that you're really attempting to set yourself up as an objective standard for everyone else. You are replacing the Bible with yourself as the standard. This is common to every cult out there. So, if you choose to continue down this path, "Welcome to cult land." Take OS advise and pass on the Kool aid.

------------------

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of YHWH should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

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The Seventh Angel

Posts: 618
Registered: Sep 1999

posted 05-05-2000 02:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for The Seventh Angel   Click Here to Email The Seventh Angel     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Hello Spying:

Let me ask you a fair question, and answer as honestly as you can. "If DeAnna had chosen Christianity over your beliefs, would you think it fair if we posted something saying this was now proof that our beliefs are right?"

As The Physicist and Old Shepherd have continuously reiterated, just because someone claims to be lead by the spirit, doesn't make it so. Since I have known DeAnna, I had grown increasingly frustrated with her lack of desire to find a local Church, and plug herself into fellowship, with local, in the flesh believers (not Internet).

Since this is also a NT command, I would not be surprised if her failure to do this has now resulted in her being wrongly lead into what I would consider a cult. There are usually direct negative consequences for violating a scripture principal. She can tell me she's spirit lead in her decision making, but as I look at the discrepancies between her beliefs, and what I, and those of my faith, that I would consider worthy of my respect, for their labor in the word, see in the scriptures, I must conclude that it is a wrong leading.

I will continue to be her friend (though honestly I'm reluctant to call her my spiritual sister) as I will continue to be your friend. I will be watching with great interest how your beliefs interact with her life. It doesn't really matter to me how far DeAnna chooses to walk this path with you, it still looks wrong to me.

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DeAnna

Posts: 800
Registered: Jan 99

posted 05-05-2000 05:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for DeAnna   Click Here to Email DeAnna     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Hello again 7. How are you?

I do hope we are able to understand eachother one day. maybe today? maybe next year? but I do want you to know that if we never "agree", on our doctrines, that I hope we will always love eachother and care about eachother. We connected right off, and have enjoyed great conversations, and i will never forget them.

You believe my beliefs have changed since we met. well... In the past few days I did see (for the first time) what ImaHebrew and Spying have been trying to show us.
That we cannot 'offer" up Yahshua as our sacrifice, for the cleansing and remission of our sin, if we never "offer him up". And put His blood (death) on us.

This is the only thing that has changed in me Ed, that .. and a new hope that I actually will, for real, come out of sin... or that it be "dormant" and not active. And though I have experienced "remission" of sin, without this knowledge, and deliverance from lying and stealing and coveting, and even a dislike for pork, believe it or not... haha
I had yet to ever feel "cleansed". I still felt "dirty", even though i look back and say.. wow, there is sooooo much that you just don't do anymore DeAnna, why does that not comfort you? well... it does comfort me, but still "cleansed", I didn't feel.

You see, I had offered up praise, I have offered up His name, pleas for forgivness, requests to know Him, to be obediant to His commands etc. But never have I offered up His blood. I was like Nachar... "I didn't kill Him", yeah.. well.. that's the problem.
If I haven't "killed" him, then I cannot offer Him up. Did they offer up a "live" lamb? or did they have to put the lambs blood on their hands first. did they have to "kill" the lamb, before they could offer the lamb up?

You may not have understood my beliefs over this past year.. but i hope you understood how much I love him. How much I truly do believe in His commands. Partly due to this John chapter 15;

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Fathers commandments, and abide in his love.
11. These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and your joy might be full.
12. this is my commandment, that ye love one another, as I have loved you.

14. Ye are my friends if you do whatsoever i command you.

Now... you know I have always quoted what Yahshua commanded, "turn the cheek, judge not, forgive so you may be forgiven, give to all who ask, etc.
I have stood on these and Isaiah 58 as my literal 'goal" in life. in hopes that I may abide in Him. this has always been my "belief" Ed. always.

I do not think "christians" are bad people. I get frustrated with "religion", because every religion says "you may only know Yah through us." But scriptures say, you may only know him through the Son and the spirit of truth.

Do you not agree that we must put Yahshua's blood on us before we may offer Him up as our sacrifice? You see... I never realized that in order to be forgiven I had to "slay" the lamb and offer him up. This was a "truth", and yet horrifying to me all at the same time. The very thought of putting Yahshua's blood on my head, broke my heart.
But now I understand all the terms "by the blood" of the lamb. by the blood of the lamb, by the blood of the lamb...

See I thought they meant His blood that was shed by whoever, 2000 yrs. ago.
I didn't know that I had to put his blood on my head, in order for me to be cleansed and redeemed by His blood.

It's kind of comical when I think about the many threads about "who" killed him.
Well, we did, if we want to offer Him up as our sacrifice, if not, then we drown in our own blood. They did not "sacrifice" Him 2000 years ago. He sacrificed Himself, that He "may" be our sacrifice. Did Yah provide a "lamb" in the thicket for the life of Isaac, and Abraham not kill it? even though Yah provided it? no. He still had to kill it, he still had to offer it up.

You know the scripture "Yah preached the gospel to Abraham"? Well, I always thought the story of Abraham and his son Isaac preached the gospel, but always thought that it was strange for it to be 'worded" that way. but not anymore.

see... Abraham was promised a son... and lived with the hope of this son, then finally received this son, then grew to love this son, then was told to "offer" him up. to slay him, and offer him up, only it wasn't Issac that was offered up but the "lamb".

Then Israel is promised a son, and have lived with the hope of him. some have finally received him, and have grown to love him, but no one is realizing that now they must "offer" him, they must put His blood on thier hands if they want to be forgiven, and cleansed. The churches have always taught (not that they realized) that Yahshua is our "living" sacrifice... and that is true in that by us sacrificeing him, by us killing Him, and putting his blood on our head, then are we "quickened" by the spirit, unto life.

I know you asked me some questions, and you are right about the "eyes being holden", I didn't realize that.
And... I guess that He could make His fleshly body "dissappear", or vanish in their sight, and show His fleshly body to 40.000 at the same time, I guess He can do what ever he wanted to do. I certainly do not view Him as limited in the least.
and I will go over John 1, but this I just want to show you Ed, as this is truly profound in my eyes, and I am truly beside my self over this, okay?
So please 'suffer' me? You are my friend, right... So I want to tell you what's going on with me. This is truly a turning point in my life... it's almost a witness that you mentioned a "change" in me. If you don't see, or you think it's not scriptural, then okay... i don't want to fight about it, though I will listen to anything you have to say about it, if said sincerely. I really will. I really, really will.

Daniel 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

8:12 And an host F60 was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

F60: an host...: or, the host was given over for the transgression against the daily sacrifice

8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

Transgression of desolation; Understand this term. Desolation "is" the transgression.
Not a transgression against desolation... for desolation means "empty", dead, waste land, with no inhabitance, forsaken.

on down after the two horns were broken; 8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy F63 people.

8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace F64 shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

F64: peace: or, prosperity

kay.. that's enough.. mostly wanted to show forth that the one who caused the sacrfices to cease in the daily temple was not the "good guy".

You see we thought the sacrifices were "over with", fulfilled, completed, ended.
BUT... what we did not know, and what few are teaching us, is that we must offer up our saviour and put his blood (death) on our hearts, on our hands, we are guilty of slaying the lamb, if we want to offer him up as our sacrfice. And that is why people are not being cleansed but are in reality desolate or barren, and not bringing forth the son in them because we are not offering up Him up as our sacrifice, we do not realize that we are guilty of His death, if we sacrifice Him. And if we do not Sacrifice Him, then we remain in our own blood.

We thought that the Romans or some would say "jews", did that for us 2000 years ago, but that was just fulfilment of what was written and to show forth who He was, and who we are to offer up, but until "we personally" offer Him up, we cannot die with him, if we have not killed him. Therefore we cannot be cleansed by His blood until we put it on us.

You know how in churches they always say "do you recieve Yahshua (Jesus) into your heart to be your lord and savior"? But what they (we) fail to see, or say, is now do you sacrifice him and put His blood on your hands that you may be cleansed?

Look at Daniels vision again.

Okay.. again.. you are right about the eyes being withholden. you hear me,... YOU ARE RIGHT MY BROTHER... I admit it! (about that! hahaha) They did not recognise Him because their eyes were with holden.

But I do know that He was a "quickening spirit". (1cor.15:45)
Do you see that by putting His blood "on us", that this is putting "him" on us?
hasn't science proven that we ARE our "DNA"? (grin).

Also... trying to be open minded and not stubborn, I went to Luke 24:39 where He tells the diciples "behold my hands and feet ... "handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have".

so I thought on this... and I know this is gonna bum you out brother, but am I not supposed to say? We are "discussing" so, I think I am supposed to say.
but I also saw something else.

in 44; he says "these are the words which I spake unto you while I was yet with you,..."

Notice the wording "while I was yet with you". well, wasn't He with them then?
And something else came to mind. Notice How he told the diciples to "handle Him", and yet to Mary, upon His resurrection He told her not too? Well... something to think about.

Now John 1, and Yahshua being the "word" that was with Yah... is not my 'word' with me? and if I speak out my word to go forth from me, is it not still with me?
Doesn't it say also that the "word" > was < Yah?

Anyway... in the beginning was the "the word", and the word was with Yah, and the word was Yah.
All things were made by Him (the word) and nothing was made that wasn't made by him. (the word).
In Him (the word) was life, and the life was the light of men.
and the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

(dont you think that Yahshua (the word) is shining in us, (we are full of darkness) and many are not comprehending it, I know you think this of me.)

10. He was in the world and the world was made by Him.

Gen.1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2. "..........and the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3. and God said, Let there be light.

John 1:12 But as many as received "Him/the word" to them gave he power to become the sons of Yah.
13. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of Yah. And the word was made flesh and dwelt among us.

Now if Yahshua said, "it is not I that doeth the works, but the Father in me, He doeth the works".
And Yahshua was Yah's 'word' made flesh, then He truly had to be "one" with the Father, with no will of His own. For how can Yah's "word" have a separate "will" then that of Yah? If the word was "with" Yah, and the word Was Yah...

Ed.. I just read your last post. So i'm gonna stop here. Sometimes it seems like your just in this for the "challange". This is no game to me. and my feelings are hurt now... and I'm shocked that because Spying was "thankful" that i saw what he had been trying show us for over a year now, quite patiently and kindly as true with ImaHebrew, I might add, was seen and understood. That you took it somehow as rubbing it in. As if he should not be thankful and rejoice for another.
Have you never been thankful for the same?

You speak of your frustration because I gather with my family and friends, and this board to discuss our Fathers mighty word. While you make a mockery of the fruits of His spirit. I have worked "days" on posts for you, because I really wanted you to see this. But you would rather preach "christianity" a "religion", then preach the Son and what He means to us. And I sure wish you would look up the word CULT. As ALL religions Even Yahshua and the diciples fit the definition perfectly. and though you use it in a derogotory, and an insulting "sense", it still doesnt' change the definition.

And as you will see in a post that I wrote to The Physicist, disrespect and contempt is from a blashphemous spirit. it's puffed up, and self empowered. You ask what happened to me? Dear Ed. What has happened to you.
You used to praise Yahshua. You used to teach love and understanding, you used to believe in the fruits of the spirit.

Well...

Your, D'


Spying, as you know... I could not be thankful enough that Yahshua allowed me to see what you so patiently and truly "fruit filled", endeavored to show forth. Tireless have been your efforts towards us. I remember a year ago, giving you a hard time, for I just did not understand. Though I hope I was never insulting. And though I have not been baptised "yet" already there truly has been an "empowerment". For scriptures that I have 'wondered' about for years are falling into place like never before.
OH Praise Yah. it is true He exaults the lowly, and debases the proud. You and ImaHebrew have always shown forth that lowly spirit. And I want you to know.. that it is truly due to your showing forth the fruits of the spirit, that caused me to read everything you and ImaHebrew wrote, and often re read it. So thankful am I.
so truly, truly thankful.

from my heart,
Your D' too.

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DeAnna

Posts: 800
Registered: Jan 99

posted 05-05-2000 05:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for DeAnna   Click Here to Email DeAnna     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Shalom The Physicist,

You seem to be under the impression that I looked up the verse in question, because i sought to "invoke" athority from the greek to back up what i see in this verse.

I just wanted to let you know, that I did not look up the greek to seek an extra hand in proving what i say is true... I looked up the greek because Ed told me that it was translated wrong. So... i looked it up to see if what HE said was correct. And i posted what i found, so he would see that i did. He said the greek was different so I said, Oh.. okay, i'd better check out the greek. pure and simple. otherwise i assure you that i would not have bothered.

It was the other scriptures that I thought would show forth or "back" up why I see this. not the greek.
I guess it's wrong to write down all the meanings that the lexicons list for each word in the scripture. because i don't know greek, I kind of have no choice but to go by the definitions that they give for each word. Now i understand about "tense", and how the "root" word can have different "tenses". And some one more schooled in a language would surely be better apt to describe this "tense". Either you or old Shep (i think old shep) posted the many other scriptures with the same word and how it too is translated "is", as in "john is risen".

However... "risen" gives this a "past" tense. "is come in the flesh", has no "past tense" participant, that i am aware of. if this is simply due to lack of knowledge of the greek grammer on my part, and there is a "past tense" partical in there, please forgive me.

I... like you, have studied the bible for many many years, and not until this board did i even think to "try" to learn the hebrew. When i did, i posted what i got so that I would NOT be lead wrong. and said, hey you guys, this is what i'm doing, or trying to do, this is what i came up with... is there any reason that keeps me from translating it this way, is there any rule that says i can't use this definition etc. and I still appreciate very much your efforts to help me. and still have all you wrote to me about it, on my desk that I use as a reference, because i did respect your knowledge.

Now... you guys seem to get real upset that we just don't "eat" what ever chrisitanity dishes out because in your mind "the majority rules". Well, i do not share this conviction. If this is the true way to seek the truth, it is my hope that Yahshua will make me of this mind. but as yet He hasn't. what can i say.

Then i am told to believe that this verse; "Know ye the spirits" was simply an instruction to weed out those that beleived He resurrected a "phantom" body, and not a "fleshly" body.
and yet "risen, resurrected, after death..." any of that is not in this scripture.
Now Ed came down on me about "where are you getting "our" flesh from?"
I tried to show BY SCRIPTURE why i thought this. showing forth Him basically saying that He would be in us... or the spirit in him would be in us. But this was just not acceptable.
But it's okay for you guys to "insert" "resurrected" in flesh, in this scripture.

Though there are many other scriptures showing forth that He does come or will be in us. Unless you guys just want to throw out "Father and I will come and make our abode with you", and I will not leave you comfortless, I will come unto you", or spirit of truth... world does not "receive", ... but ye "know Him", cause He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you"... "Who can tell you of a man but the spirit of a man"... You know ?

Im not writing a new bible here, these are VALID Scriptures. But no one offers me any other scriptures to prove that He resurrected a "fleshly" body, other then "see me, feel me, does a spirit have flesh? scripture.. but you must understand that they thought they were seeing a "ghost", for he had just died, and it scared them. And Yet, he would not suffer Mary to touch Him or handle Him "right' after He resurrected.
So that One scripture and > greek comentaries. Is what i'm given and am told that i'm rediculous that i don't go along with the crowd.
I have three scriptures here that plainly state he will be "in us", without John 4;2,
But you say I am dishonest. Because I went to the greek to see if what ED said that was in the greek was true. But it's okay for Ed to go to the "greek" to support His "theory", and I never called him dishonest for doing it... nor would i ever.

So according to the greek shcollars, in order to "know the spirit inside of a man", is for him to "confess" that Yahshua rose a fleshly body. and not a spiritual body.

And yet all believers make up this "spiritual body". that he is the "head" of.

Now how is this knowing "the spirit inside of a man?" That is what the scripture says. not DeAnna, the scripture says, "know the spirit of a man". not know the doctrine of a man. because of what He's been taught to beleive? wouldn't that be "Know the understanding, or doctrine, or theology of a man?

But it says "know the SPIRIT of a man".

Then we have > 1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Not to mention the rest of the chapter of the verse in question. >

JOhn 4: 4 > Ye are of Yah, little children, and have overcome them: becasue greater is he that is "in you", then he that is in the world.
5, They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. (the world. as in "popular belief"?)
6. We are of Yah: he that knoweth Yah heareth us, he that is not of Yah heareth not us. Hereby know we "the spirit of truth," and the "spirit of error". (and what are we doing? knowing the 'spirit of a man".)

Then it goes on about LOVE, and how Yah is LOVE, so if we have Him "in us", we must love eachother. do you agree with this scritpure?

12. No man hath seen Yah at any time. If we love one another, Yah dwelleth IN US, and His love is Perfected IN US.
13. Hereby know we that we "dwell in him", and "he in us," because >
He hath given us of his Spirit.
15. Whosoever shall confess that Yahshua is the Son of Yah, Yah dwelleth in him, and he in Yah".

Now think about this, please just think about it. What did Yahshua say the Father was? He said the Father is spirit. So it makes sense that his "offspring' or his "son' would be spirit too. don't you think? didn't Yahshua say that it was not "he" that doeth the works but the "Father" in Him? didn't he say that the Father was spirit?
am i just making all this up? Are "all" of these scriptures not saying what they are saying?

but because the greek schollars say the verse in question is really trying to offset another doctrine of Yahshua being spirit, rather then flesh, and that is how we "know the spirit that dwells in them"... and I don't see this, nor do i see it in any of the other scriptures... But i do see "acknowledment" of His 'spirit', (which IS him) being in us, over and over.

For who can tell me of the spirit of Yah, save the spirit of Yah? And what is His spirit called? "the spirit of truth.".

as far as commentaries, and taking one scripture out of "context", that i see you preach a lot about yourself. (nothing wrong with that, not one bit.)
well... let all men be liars, and Yah be true.

You see me as being 'ignorant", and blind and decieved etc. but do you see me as "rude"? If I am "ignorant" or blind or decieved, can i really help that? but can all of us "help" from being out and out rude? or insulting?

do you know what blashemey means in hebrew or greek? Would you please explain to me what it is? because my studies have shown me that it is "slander, rudeness, disrespect, haughtyness, provocation.. contempt, etc.

Now, not that you need to worry about slandering or being rude or disrespectful or provoking one DeAnna or bill, or george etc. for flesh sake, But surly none of us here want a "blasphemous" spirit. So why do you try to provoke?

I thought these boards were for coming here and sharing, and saying "hey" i see this, and one says, no, that's not what i see, i see this, and we go through scriptures to see what lines up. I did not realize we were to come to these boards to slander, and abuse and be rude to eachother. How is that "loving each other". Yes.. you, Ed, me, we can all disagree, and show forth what we believe to be true, but why can't we do that in love, and patience etc. why do it so mean? so insultingly?

What is more important? that we agree on one scritpure? or that we obey the Son's commands? That we agree on doctrine? or that we obey the sons commands?

I would really appreciate it if someone would answer some of my questions as I am trying to answer every one else's questions.
Only to be belittled for doing it.

Now you may think in your heart that i'm pointing my finger and being judgmental, and for that very reason, i have stayed quiet. But then I read Yahshua say;

"if a brother offend you, rebuke him, if he asks forgiveness, forgive him.

Well... i was never good at "rebuking", and didn't really understand why we were supposed to rebuke at all... i thought we were to turn the other cheek, but ...
yes... i'm gonna say it... Yahshua or His spirit, "revealed" to me... (sorry, but this is what i believe to be true) That ... if we are offended and do not "rebuke" or say so, then how can the one that offended offer amends? And why should they go with out forgiveness if they never new they offended you in order to ask for it.

so.. phys.. i was a bit offended being accused of being arrogant, and dishonest. you may not care... but i am abliged to tell you so. and to be "honest", I hope you care.

I have no problem walking as many miles in scripture as some one wants to walk Phys. And I don't want to be a "respector" of persons. I don't want ImaHebrew or Spying or Iyahna to be any more important to me then Ed, or you, or Old shep. just because they see what i see. and i do respect you as human beings in search just like me. No we don't see eye to eye, and we do see things differently, but that does not "provoke" me.
But it is very hard to be called arrogant, or dishonest etc. and not feel provoked and cause condemnation in the mind of the accused. And believe or not, i'm more worried about those that are doing the provoking then i am about those that are being provoked.

Simply because it causes condemnation in the minds of others, and makes your "word"/ seed.. un fruitful.

So... i just thought i'd 'talk to you" about it, if that's allowed.
For what it's worth, i would be tickled pink, if after all is said and done we were all brought into the kingdom. ALL. It would not hurt my feelings one bit.

If I am wrong about the scripture in question. (i do not believe so) but lets just say, i am, and you and Ed are right about this scripture. does me believeing that i and everyone else has been given a portion of His spirit jepordize my soul?
do you think someone that does not believe that they have a portion of his spirit would?

2Ki 19:3 And they said unto him, Thus saith Hezekiah, This day is a day of trouble, and of rebuke, and blasphemy: for the children are come to the birth, and there is not strength to bring forth.

Isa 37:3 And they said unto him, Thus saith Hezekiah, This day is a day of trouble, and of rebuke, and of blasphemy: for the children are come to the birth, and there is not strength to bring forth.

Mt 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.


Now.. i'm not "sure" about this okay... let me say that again.. i'm not sure about this.
but what im scared of, is you guys saying that the "spirit of truth", is not going to lead us in "all" truth, might be insulting to "the spirit of truth", and i just "cringe", and say.. ohhh..nooo... i dont think they realize what they are saying...
But this might not be blasphemy, the spirit of truth may not take this "insultingly" or take it as slander, but It "scares me".

What if you and Ed really did have the truth and i was without.. do you realize that this would make me "a little one"? Do you and Ed believe that the scritpure "woe to them that offend a little one? is a lie? "unless ye be like little children ye shall no way enter the kingdom of heaven." is that scripture saying what it means?

do you raise children? are you around them all the time?
if so... have you not noticed how they "fight"?

"MOM... billy won't give me this"... such and such hit me.
Do you, have you, ever heard a child say to another, you do not have any truth in you?
You do not have Yahshua spirit in you? You have no reasoning power... you have no intellegence? they may say "dummy". but usually they don't even know what it means.
Have you ever witnessed a child's heart "Not" go out to another child, if they were hurt, or scared, or lost, or sad, or offended? UNLESS... They are the ones that made them that way? as a general rule, children do not seek to insult.

IF you cannot see what i'm saying here... if you truly do not know deep down in your gut, that it is wrong... to slander, and insult, and ridicule. Then I do not judge you, but i caution you to think yourself more intellegent then DeAnna, even though at one time you had her convinced that you were.

That's all i have to say... i'll leave you alone now, and i won't harp on you or keep coming back at you, or anything like that, I just felt obligated to say something.
I hope this is able to be read in the spirit that was intended. I know it's written with a tone of "correction", and that is always hard to swallow, i hate it myself, but i am far more concerned about people obeying Yahshua's commands then i am whether or not they agree on a doctrine or a verse. and if you see me disobeying His commands, I do truly ask you to show me that i am doing this. cause sometimes we just don't see it.

I honestly care,
DeAnna

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Iyahna

Posts: 386
Registered: Dec 1999

posted 05-05-2000 11:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Iyahna     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote

Hola Greetings to all,

D’ this came in my snail mail yesterday. Our Hola Yah is a confirming Yah, even twice and
thrice.

In the following newsletter excerpt, please notice how the Bless-ed SPIRIT is on One Accord. Please notice that this is not a Lutheran Congregation, but Messianic Jewish. It is not the one ImAHebrew or Spying below to, nor are they in Missouri but in California. The Spirit is truely revealing great Truths. My greatest joy is that the Old and New Testament are coming into the Fullness. Because I always say that we are Lambs dressed in the Conquering Lions Strength. I see this as Old Testament on the outside, New Covenant on the inside.

From ‘Adat Y’shua ha Adon - Messianic Jewish Congregation - Woodland Hills, Ca -
Where Y’shua is Messiah.

The Messiah, the Ultimate Passover Lamb

Also the passover Sacrifice was to be offered (Ex12:6-7)
It was to be killed by the whole community (ex 12:6) Notice that originally, all the people killed the Passover Lambs, not just the priests. It was only later when a temple was built that the people went to the Temple to have their Lambs killed. Two thousand years ago, who killed Yeshua? It was not just the priests, not just the Romans, not just the Jews, instead everyone did. We all did because we have sinned. Since all of us are sinful in Yah’s sight, we all need forgiveness. Therefore, Yeshua died for the sins of the world, so that many of us could be forgiven........

As well, the Passover Lamb’s blood had to be applied (Ex 12:7). They put the blood
along the lintel or the top part of the doorposts, so the motions of the blood were in the shape of a cross. Everyone had to pass through the blood of the Lamb to be delivered. Likewise Yeshua’s blood is symbolically applied in our lives when we apply his blood.

I enter in this scripture.

Lev 8:24 And he brought Aaron's sons, and Moses put of the blood upon the tip of their right ear, and upon the thumbs of their right hands, and upon the great toes of their right feet: and Moses sprinkled the blood upon the altar round about.

Finally a Passover Supper was to be eaten (Ex 12: 8-13) The people had to eat the
Passover Lamb. They had to eat the sacrifice and have it become a part of them. Likewise
we must have Yeshua come into our life and become part of us too.


Then there is discussion about 'was' and 'is' is interesting too.

Since Yah is He who ‘WAS’ - ‘IS’ - AND - ‘EVER SHALL BE.’

I got this in my email this rising which is a different question but the question asks why did Strong's change a word. The answer given can be applied here and if heard and real-eyes-ed then maybe some can come home the Indwelling Spirit Presence. I Pray O Yah.

>1) Why does Strong replace the original word (HRPW)?

People replace words like HRPU with RPH for one of two reasons:

a. they know so little Hebrew (and/or Greek) they think that roots are words that get
conjugated.
b. they know so much Hebrew (and/or Greek) that they are not concerned about the
meaning of words anymore and talk about histories and relationships of words around
roots.


I give Thanks and praise to the Most High Yah who never leaves us or forsakes us.....
Unto perfection. I Give Thanks for the endurance of the saints as they were being tried and tested and the anointing in this thread.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Speaking of the four horns of religion -
and yes D' not the Good Guy, but religion.

Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;


Psa 50:5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by
sacrifice.

Psa 31:23 O love the LORD, all ye his saints: for the LORD preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer.

Psa 34:9 O fear the LORD, ye his saints: for there is no want to them that fear him.

Psa 132:9 Let thy priests be clothed with righteousness; and let thy saints shout for joy.

Now look at the Good Horn:
Psa 148:14 He also exalteth the horn (the good guy) of his people, the praise of all his saints; even of the children of Israel, a people near unto him. Praise ye the LORD.

D' by the Grace of Yah, I too now truely see what the I was showing forth through thy devotion and Love of the Most High. I see the offering up of his blood. I see why you are so ecstatic and joyful now. Joy has also risen within me, as Yah did confirm through a third hand, His wanting us to see this Truth.
For who the Son set's free, is free indeed. Free from the Law of Sin in the flesh. Glory be to His Name.

Bless-ed Love
Iyahna

[This message has been edited by Iyahna (edited 05-05-2000).]

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The Seventh Angel

Posts: 618
Registered: Sep 1999

posted 05-05-2000 11:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for The Seventh Angel   Click Here to Email The Seventh Angel     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
"Touch Me Not"

By Gary F. Zeolla

Matt 28:9 - And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and HELD HIM by the feet, and worshipped him.

Luke 24:39 - Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: HANDLE ME, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

John 20:17 - Jesus saith unto her, TOUCH ME NOT; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God (all quotes from the KJV).

Mini-Greek, Grammar Lesson

It appears Matthew and Luke are saying that after His resurrection, Jesus could be "held" and "handled" while John is saying that He could not even be "touched." To answer this "apparent contradiction" will require first a mini-lesson in Greek grammar.

The Greek grammar book I used when I took Greek at Denver Seminary was: H.E. Dana and Julias Mantey. A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament.1 The following is taken from page 301 of this book:

(2) The Present Imperative in Prohibitions. The present tense is properly used for expressing continued action. A prohibition in the present imperative demands that action then in progress be stopped.

me krinete, ina me krithete
Stop judging, lest ye be judged. Mt 7:1

ego eklan . . . leyei moi, Me klaie
I was weeping; he says to me, Stop weeping. Rev 5:4,5.

The way the prohibitive, present imperative is translated in Dana and Mantey’s examples is exactly how we were taught to render this grammatical form at seminary. And it is how I have been rendering it ever since.

For instance, I found a translation of the book of Colossians I did a few years ago. In it, I rendered 2:16 as: "Therefore, stop letting anyone judge you in food or in drink, or in respect of a feast or a new moon or of Sabbaths." I rendered 3:9 as: "Stop lying to one another, having put off the old man with his deeds."

Now, to apply the above to the beginning of John 20:17. The verse also includes a prohibitive, present imperative: me mou haptou. It would be better rendered as, "Stop touching Me." The point? As Dana and Mantey indicated, "A prohibition in the present imperative demands that action then in progress be stopped."

So Mary is already touching Jesus. But Jesus is commanding her to stop. But why? Help in answering this question can be found by looking at the word rendered "touch."

Word Study

The Greek word rendered "touch" in the KJV is haptou.2 I looked it up in the two lexicons my professors at seminary recommended: Walter Baur's A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Johannes Louw and Eugene Nida’s Greek-English Lexicon.

Baur definition that fits this context is, ""touch, take hold of, hold."3

Louw and Nida give two main definitions for this verb that fit this context: "hold on to" and "touch."4 For the former, they then give a more in-depth definition of: "to hold on to an object - ‘to hold on to, to retain in the hand, to seize.’" For the latter, the in-depth definition is, "to touch, with the implication of relatively firm contact - ‘to touch.’"5

In his commentary on the Gospel of John, Merril C. Tenny summarizes the lexical connotations of this verb as: "The verb hapto does not mean to touch with the tip of a finger to test whether an object is real or not but to ‘clutch’ or ‘grip.’"6

So Mary was not just touching Jesus, she was holding Him, grasping Him, clinging to Him. Jesus is simply telling her to let go, enough is enough already.

Conclusion and Possible Objection

Putting all the above together, if I was translating the first part of this verse, I would probably render it as, "Stop holding Me…" or possibly, "Stop clinging to me…."

So Jesus is being "held" in Matthew; He is being "handled" in Luke; and He is being "held" or "clung to" in John. So there is no contradiction between the Gospels. In fact, the only reason there is even an "apparent contradiction" between these passages is because of the rather poor rendering of the KJV.

Compare, however, the translation of the NKJV, "Do not cling to Me…." Even without using "Stop" this rendering still has the sense that Jesus is commanding that Mary cease what she is already doing. I doubt very much I would say "Do not cling to me" to someone who was not even touching me!

Now, to anticipate a possible objection, if my translation above is how the verse is supposed to be rendered, why is it not rendered as such in English translations? First off, most modern-day versions do get the definition of the word correct. As indicated, the NKJV renders the word "cling to." The NIV and NRSV have "hold on to."

As for the prohibitive, present imperative, I did find two versions that properly rendered it: the NASB and Kenneth S. Wuest’s Expanded Translation. Both render this phrase the same as my second possibility above, "Stop clinging to me…."

Closing Quote

To close, I will quote John Calvin’s commentary on this verse at length to answer more fully why Jesus is telling Mary to "Stop clinging to me…."

"The answer is easy, provided that we remember that the women were not repelled from touching Christ, till their eagerness to touch him had been carried to excess; for, so far as it was necessary for removing doubt, he unquestionably did not forbid them to touch him, but, perceiving that their attention was too much occupied with embracing his feet, he restrained and corrected that immoderate zeal. They fixed their attention on his bodily presence, and did not understand any other way of enjoying his society than by conversing with him on the earth….

"For I am not yet ascended to my Father. We ought to attend to this reason which he adds; for by these words he enjoins the women to restrain their feelings, until he be received into the heavenly glory. In short, he pointed out the design of his resurrection; not such as they had imagined it to be, that, after having returned to life, he should triumph in the world, but rather that, by his ascension to heaven, he should enter into the possession of the kingdom which had been promised to him, and seated at the right hand of the Father, should govern the Church by the power of his Holy Spirit.

"The meaning of the words therefore is, that his state of resurrection would not be full and complete, until he should sit down in heaven at the right hand of the Father; and, therefore, that the women did wrong in satisfying themselves with having nothing more than half of the resurrection, and desiring to enjoy his presence in the world."7

Footnotes:
1) H.E. Dana and Julias Mantey. A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament (New York: Macmillan, 1955), p.301.
2) The lexical form is hapto or haptomai depending on whether it is taken as deponent or not.
3) Walter Baur. A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament. 2nd ed. Transl. and rev. by William Arndt, F. Wilbur Gingrich and Fredrick W. Danker (Chicago: University of London Press, 1979), p.102.
4) Johannes Louw and Eugene Nida. Greek-English Lexicon (New York: United Bible Societies, 1988), Vol. 1, p.32.
5) Ibid. Vol. 2, pp.221, 285.
6) Merril C. Tenny. "The Gospel of John" in The Expositor’s Bible Commentary Frank E. Gaebelein. ed. Vol. 9 (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1981), p.192.
7) John Calvin. Calvin’s Commentaries. William Pringle, trans. Vol. XVIII (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, reprinted 1979), pp. 258,259.

"Touch Me Not." Copyright © 1999 by Gary F. Zeolla of Darkness to Light ministry (http://www.dtl.org).

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The Seventh Angel

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posted 05-05-2000 11:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for The Seventh Angel   Click Here to Email The Seventh Angel     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
DeAnna, you told the Physicist that I said the verse in 1st John 4 was translated wrong. Show me where I said that!

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Iyahna

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posted 05-05-2000 12:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Iyahna     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Hola Hails Seventh,

How are you? I hoped bless-ed and healthy.

Please hear this. It is not either/or
but rather, it is FULNESS.

He was flesh and Spirit and Written Word.
He is He who was, Is and ever shall be.
He as HaYah means to be, being and become.
He is Alpha and Omega.
He is a two-edged sword, sweet and bitter.
He is Old and New testament.

No-one is truely to convert or change anyone. We are sharing the Truth about the Scriptures which are being opened up to our sight in these times. And it is Truth that sets us free. Are you free inside? Do you tingle with inner joy? Is your face glowing like Moses?
And if not, there is no harm in weeping and saying I want more too Yah. I want your Fulness within me. I want the wisdom of Solomon and not the wisdom of Scholars. I give thanks for the forefathers, but let it be your Spirit that empowers me so that I do not just have an intellect form of godliness denying the Power thereof. It's OK to ask. For we have not because we ask not.

I forgot who asked me about wanting to destroy their foundations. And DeAnna answered this question already - But I add

Psa 46:1 God [is] our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.

Psa 46:2 Therefore will not we fear, though the earth be removed, and though the
mountains be carried into the midst of the sea;

Psa 46:3 [Though] the waters thereof roar [and] be troubled, [though] the mountains shake with the swelling thereof. Selah.

The entire earth will fall. Babylon shall fall. And just like there was a deliverence out of Egypt and Asyria, thus shall we be called out of Babylon. Now whether that means the Babylon of our minds, the symbolism of Powers and Principalities, or a country or place, we will still need to hear the Spirit say, "Arise, escape from Babylon before she falls."

We won't have books, scholars or our internet connections. We may even have to flee without bible in hand. Thus, the Spirit quickens and will bring to rememberence, the Word, not the Scholars. I say again, I was in Church a long time with no 'soul prosperity', the true sanctifaction process. Well one must ask, if it is TRUTH that sets us free, and the Church does not accomplish helping people become 'Free Indeed', then there must be some TRUTH missing. Not changed, missing. Now when we locate this TRUTH, by the Spirit revealing, sometimes old 'concepts' not WORD, but man-made concepts get washed away with True TRUTH. That which was in darkness is brought to the light and the darkness fades away.

Now, you guys have been through seminary and dealt with highly regarded intellects with a line of Great accomplishments, but all that means nothing when the day comes that a child shall lead us. If we don't know the Spirit, the Indwelling, the Power and not just the form, we will not hear a thing, won't believe that child when the message is brought through their lips, because we are too busy looking at scholars and not the entire living Creation which speaks of HIM and their is no speech nor language that the voice shall not be heard.

The other day I watched 'Touched by an Angel' and a little girl was hearing Angels singing all the time. Well, they tried to diagnos her as having delusions, wanted to put her on drugs (sorcery - pharmekia) to balance her Psyche. This is the credible doctor who can't believe that a child could really and literally hear angels singing.

The question now becomes who is listening or not to the voice of the Creator. I have many times been put before preachers by Yah. Yah had me share with Preachers, the Glories of Yah, and they have said things like, I have never been gifted to have seen a miracle of healing from sickness. (Baptist) Or, wow, I never saw it like that, thank-you. (Pentacostal) Who then did a scripture study and wrote a sermon on the subject. Yes, preachers who spent years in Seminary. That is not to exalt myself but HIM. Yah sends us out to share our testimony of His Power. At times, he will use us in proving his power. At other times it will just be us who receives the healings and the bless-ed climb from Glory to Glory unto the Mountain top victory of the indwelling of the FULNESS of the Godhead bodily.

Psa 91:7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.

Yes, the foundations of the church and the Temple must crumble. But our foundation in the Prophets and the Apostles, and Most importantly, the Rock of Our Salvation, shall never crumble. We shall find refuge from every storm, when dwelling in His presence.

And to hear what is being said doesn't require conversion but expansion. He is New every morning. All that you have learned will prosper by allowing the Spirit to bring the New meanings to you. Remember that in the last days a child shall lead us. Will that child know what the scholars said?

Hola Hails
Praises to the King
Iyahna

[This message has been edited by Iyahna (edited 05-05-2000).]

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The Seventh Angel

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posted 05-05-2000 01:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for The Seventh Angel   Click Here to Email The Seventh Angel     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Iyahna:

Many times in these discussions we think we know something about the others beliefs, by what opposing council says they believe. Your post a couple back I find no disagreement with. I think you misunderstand that I might, because ImAHebrew and Spying say that traditional Christianity teaches this, but we teach the other. I am not in disagreement with the belief that we killed Messiah through our sin, or that we die with him (though ImAHebrew and Spying I think have a different understanding than me of this dying process).

If you look at the Acts 15 thread, on The True Faith Forum, you will more of an idea of how we disagree in this area. What I think Spying and ImAHbrew are guilty of (and not necessarily intentionally) is dividing this belief in half, and putting up one side against the other, when it is meant to be taken as a whole. They vehemently oppose the idea that Messiah died in our stead, or that YHWH would be pleased or satisfied with such an action, yet a cursory reading of Isaiah 53 will tell you that's exactly what happened.

So if you think that I or Christianity disbelieves that we die with Messiah, and are raised with him (Listen to a Christian Baptism sometime), or that we didn't kill him with our sin, you are mistaken. I dare say that if you brought the person on here that wrote the article you posted, you would more than likely find him on our side of this discussion.

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DeAnna

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posted 05-05-2000 08:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DeAnna   Click Here to Email DeAnna     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
I'm sorry Ed, you're right.
---------------------------------------------
>> DeAnna, you told the Physicist that I said the verse in 1st John 4 was translated wrong. Show me where I said that! <<
---------------------------------------------
no, you didn't, you are right, you weren't saying it was translated wrong, you were saying that in the greek the "tense" was not present but past and present. And then showed me a commentary that said the scripture was referring to His resurrection of a fleshly body. "past" tense. I did word that wrong. I'm sorry.
Please forgive me.

I was just trying to let him know "why" i looked up the greek to begin with. Didn't mean to be in error. sorry.

Love,
D'

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DeAnna

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posted 05-05-2000 09:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DeAnna   Click Here to Email DeAnna     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Hey there Ed,

I read your post on "do not touch me".

And you are telling me that He was actually saying "stop touching me" (cause enough already)

well.. it's just a shame that we don't agree on much of anything these days, but... i'll tell you what came to mind. For what it's worth to ya.

and yet...

He tells us "why" for her not to touch Him,
"I have not ascended unto my Father yet".

so... in context, it just doesn't make sense to me > "stop touch-ing me, i have not ascended unto my Father yet".

or does that say something else too?

soo... go back to work.

love,
D'

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