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Author Topic:   god verses Elohim
Nacharyah

Posts: 8
Registered: Sep 1999

posted 09-02-1999 08:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Nacharyah   Click Here to Email Nacharyah     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
YoshaYah,

I think you may have misunderstood me. I said that I believe it is ok to use the title "God" to refer to Yahueh. I did *not* say that "God" is His Name, anymore than "el" or "elohim" is His Name.

I hope this clears up the confusion in that area.

As for the glory which I have seen, both in calling on "God," "Father," "Jesus," or "Yahueh" (with the intent of the heart being the same for all), it is the fulfillment of what the Bible (including Yahushua Himself) speaks of happening.

Perhaps you are not familiar with the ministry of the Holy Spirit: salvation, healing, deliverance from demons, miracles, gifts of the Spirit, etc.

You may want to check out the following verses:

Mark 16:17,18, Luke 9:1,2, 24:49, Acts 2:1-4, 4:31, 13:9-11, 1 Cor. 12:7-11, etc.

These verses show the physical evidence of the "glory" which I spoke of. When we pray to Yahueh, knowing we are praying to Him (regardless of language issues), He will answer. And He has, and I praise Him for it! Much glory has been brought to Him, and many souls have entered His kingdom. I have been very blessed to be part of such a ministry (my pastor's) as this. Praise Yahueh for it!

I understand that not everyone has seen what He will do if people submit to Him and obey His Word. His Promises are real, and He will make good on them to any who claim them.

My prayer is that people start putting works with their faith (James 2:14-26), and get into the world doing what Yahushua called us to do:

"And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give." Matt. 10:7,8

Love in Yah,

------------------
Solomon [=] Acts 17:24-28

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OldShepherd

Posts: 672
Registered: May 99

posted 09-03-1999 08:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for OldShepherd   Click Here to Email OldShepherd     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
YoshaYah

"the Greeks knew "Theos" well before they even heard of the Name YHWH."
_____And your point is?

"So are you saying that Mattithyah wrote THEOS"
_____Do you have an authentic Hebrew NT, written, say in the years 30 - 300 CE, that shows anything else? I recently posted a site which shows a photograph of a fragment of Matthew, written in the 1st century, in Greek. My NT came to me in Greek and unless someone can show me an authentic early Hebrew NT then I'll deal with what I have, NOT speculate on what it might have said if it had been written in Aramaic or Hebrew.

I don't know greek, but it looked to me as if it was translated to fit some pre-existant beliefs. . . These passages seem to be falsely translated.
_____If you don't know Greek and you don't have an authentic Hebrew NT to compare with, how on earth would you know?
_____To me this is a cop-out! I.e., "It doesn't say what I want it to say." or "It doesn't say what my teacher told me it says." "So it must be falsely translated" Where do we stop? "Well, alrighty then, let's just all throw our Bibles away and write what we think YHWH might have said."

"Take for instance the aramaic word "lamma". It's a combination of "la" and "mah". I even know that "la" before a word mean "to", but where's the "to" in this passage."
_____There is no "to", here, it is the interrogative Mah (Mem, heh), with lamed preposition, Lamah "why", end of story. "Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament", Francis Brown, S.R. Driver, C.A. Briggs, Oxford Press, 1980, p. 554,
_____Have you looked this up in a lexicon? If you are going to be reading Greek and Hebrew, and you don't know the languages, I strongly suggest that you obtain some language resources, lexicons, concordances, grammars, etc.

"And where is the other "which is," in Markos."
_____Why do you assume that these verses are falsely translated because they are not, word for word, exactly the same? Actually Mark said "which is" and Matt said "that is", same meaning! Neither is quoting anyone, at this point, but introducing the Greek translation of the Hebrew phrase they had just written, i.e. transliterated.
_____If both Matt and Mark wrote in Hebrew, why is only this phrase transliterated, then translated, into Greek? If all the statements from, at, or near the cross were in Hebrew why only this one transliterated, then translated into Greek? Why not all of them? Or why wasn't this statement simply translated into Greek as all the others supposedly were?
_____And this whole smoke screen avoids my question. Did or did not HaMaschiach, quote Psalm 22:1, as written in Hebrew, and say, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani" (El of me, El of me, why have you forsaken me)? If so, how does this reconcile with the discussions, against the use of "El", in previous posts?
_____If you feel that there are false translations here, I guess you're going to have to decide which parts of the Bible you're going to believe and if not 100%, I can't help you.
Note: Original post from my home PC was badly garbled. Here is how it should have read. For some reason I'm now having same problem posting/editing, Perdieu/Kinney had.

ZaQuNRaAHYaHuW

[This message has been edited by OldShepherd (edited 09-06-1999).]

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EliYah

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posted 09-03-1999 12:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for EliYah   Click Here to Email EliYah     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Concerning the use of the title "God" to refer to Yahweh, it seems that the defenders of this do sing a familiar song.

We know that both the English word "God" and the Hebrew word pronounced "God" both trace back to idolatry. Perhaps it is generally believed that this word "God" no longer has this meaning even though it did at one time. Based on this, some believe it is now acceptable to refer to Yahweh as "God" (a historically pagan term).

If one chooses to believe this, then they can choose to keep Christmas, Easter and Halloween also since none of these holidays mean quite what they meant in years gone by.

Suppose for a moment there was a congregation of Yahweh that decided they were going to call Yahweh a "Buddha". There would or should certainly be some serious opposition to this. Yahweh does not like us looking toward other religions and applying their practices toward Him:


Deut 12:29 "When Yahweh your Elohim cuts off from before you the nations which you go to dispossess, and you displace them and dwell in their land, 30 "take heed to yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed from before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, `How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise.'

Yahweh also specifically has forbidden us to even take the names of pagan deities upon our lips:


Exod 23:13 "And in all that I have said to you, be circumspect and make no mention of the name of other gods, nor let it be heard from your mouth.

Therefore, it would be wrong for this congregation (who calls Yahweh a "Buddha") to inquire after their deities or make mention of the name of other deities. How much more so an abomination if one took the names of these deities and applied them to Yahweh!

Now, if the doctrine is true that there is nothing wrong with it as long as the meaning of a word changes through time and it becomes standard practice of all congregations to call Yahweh a "Buddha"..there are several problems with this.

1. At what point in time did it change from an abomination to being acceptable?

2. Since when does the majority rule when it comes to walking in the truth?

3. Shouldn't the roots of our actions and the roots of our worship be in the scriptures, rather than in an abomination?

4. If we love Yahweh and have a heart for Him, wouldn't we realize that He knows where this practice came from and shouldn't we be concerned as to what He thinks about it?

It would be one thing if several hundred years later, a person was unaware of the concept of calling Yahweh a "Buddha" got started. It would be quite another if a person KNEW..but didn't care. If we are after Yahweh's own heart...we SHOULD care. If it was wrong then, it is wrong now.


Deut 6:5 "You shall love Yahweh your Elohim with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

------------------
With love in His service,

EliYah

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Nacharyah

Posts: 8
Registered: Sep 1999

posted 09-03-1999 01:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Nacharyah   Click Here to Email Nacharyah     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
EliYah (and others),

As I noted before, if one is to go to the extent that you and a few others do, then there is basically no word left holy or acceptable that we may use today.

Many pagans in the past have used el or elohim as the name of their god. Do we say that those two words are pagan in origin? How do we know when they were first used? We did not live in the time of the Old Covenant, so we cannot say what went on back then. Many today even use "Yahweh" when we know that they have in fact left His faith.

As for the word "God", I see some people here say it is from the word "gad" in the Bible. But, how do you know this is actually where it is from? Have you checked the dictionary lately on this? Did you live in the time of the Bible?

Etymology: Middle English, from Old English; akin to Old High German got god

Also, I will again relate the modern experience of this issue.

If Yahueh considered this word (God) sacrilege, and did not want to be referred to as this, why would He answer to it and make good on all His promises stated in His Word, when people refer to Him as God? I am talking about saving people (physically), healing people, and everything else He promises in His Word.

When one begins to reduce the Truth of Yahueh to a matter of words and translation of languages, you begin to fall off the path into the realm of a cult. Semantics generally have no real resolution because of its very changeable nature. Words change day and night.

Consider words like Lucifer, which in fact means, "light bearer," which is an honorable title. Note the bad connotation it now has because it has been applied to Satan.

In the same way, because today, for a lot of people, God refers to Yahueh, its connotation has changed, and now is considered good. It, however, can be used for good or evil, just as "Lord" can.

The "Buddha" theory does not work for several reasons. Buddha did not consider himself to be a god. Therefore, that really ends the discussion. But, if you want to use it as an example anyway, what of all the cults who use words and titles in a bad way, which Yahueh has applied to Himself?

We simply do not know how words today we use were used in the past. Adonai, etc., they were all used for pagan gods, but Yah applied them to Himself as well. How many other words were used the same way? We don't know, and we don't know their origin without a doubt.

It has to do with the personal language and understanding of each person.

Until you stop using el and elohim to refer to Yahueh, do not harp on people who use God to refer to Him. For in fact, if they were both at one time ascribed to pagan gods, they are now are used in reverence for our Most High Father. Consider the fruit, for it proves the tree (Matt. 7:17,18).

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord (Yahueh), Lord (Yahueh), shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matt. 7:21

Until one can disprove the reality I have experienced, you are all speaking from theory. I have seen the hand of Yahueh move from doing His will, and language places no barrier on Him.

In His Love,

------------------
Solomon [=] Acts 17:24-28

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EliYah

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posted 09-03-1999 02:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for EliYah   Click Here to Email EliYah     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote

As I noted before, if one is to go to the extent that you and a few others do, then there is basically no word left holy or acceptable that we may use today. Many pagans in the past have used el or elohim as the name of their god. Do we say that those two words are pagan in origin? How do we know when they were first used? We did not live in the time of the Old Covenant, so we cannot say what went on back then. Many today even use "Yahweh" when we know that they have in fact left His faith.

We know because Yahweh Himself calls Himself "Elohim". I believe Hebrew to be the first language..spoken by Adam. If Yahweh at that time was called "Elohim" then it doesn't really matter who came along later and decided that was going to be the name of their god.

As for the word "God", I see some people here say it is from the word "gad" in the Bible. But, how do you know this is actually where it is from? Have you checked the dictionary lately on this? Did you live in the time of the Bible?

Etymology: Middle English, from Old English; akin to Old High German got god

The English word "God" does not (to my knowledge) have its origins in Hebrew. However, I believe it to be no coincidence that there just 'happens' to be a pagan deity called "God" in scripture and today people call Yahweh "God", often in place of His name, Yahweh.

The etymology of the English word "God" was illustrated on another thread as follows:

From the encyclopedia Americana, 1945 Edition:

" GOD (god, gawd): Common Teutonic word for personal object of religious worship, formerly applicable to super-human beings of heathen myth; on conversion of Teutonic races to Christianity, term was applied to Supreme Being, and to Persons of Trinity 6-38a; 13-58a; Bible 3-174a; Jesus Christ 8-206b; mythology 10-362b; Spinoza's philosophy 12-165a. "


Also, I will again relate the modern experience of this issue.

If Yahueh considered this word (God) sacrilege, and did not want to be referred to as
this, why would He answer to it and make good on all His promises stated in His Word,
when people refer to Him as God? I am talking about saving people (physically), healing
people, and everything else He promises in His Word.

Miracles performed are not a determining factor as to whether or not someone is walking in the truth of Yahweh.


Matt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, `Master, Master,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 "Many will say to Me in that day, `Master, Master, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Therefore, we should not depend on miracles performed to be evidence for someone walking in the truth. Did you know that for someone to be considered a Catholic "Saint", there must be an authentic..provable miracle that had to occur as a direct result of praying to this dead person?

Never, ever..ever should we let an experience, a 'miracle' or alot of supernatural occurances twist our minds into believing in anything that scripture plainly says is wrong. Yahweh has grace toward those who are unaware of a wrong, but to be aware and then ignore the wrong..this is dangerous ground. We must walk in the truth He reveals to us.


When one begins to reduce the Truth of Yahueh to a matter of words and translation of languages, you begin to fall off the path into the realm of a cult. Semantics generally have no real resolution because of its very changeable nature. Words change day and night.

Consider words like Lucifer, which in fact means, "light bearer," which is an honorable
title. Note the bad connotation it now has because it has been applied to Satan.

In the same way, because today, for a lot of people, God refers to Yahueh, its
connotation has changed, and now is considered good. It, however, can be used for
good or evil, just as "Lord" can.

The "Buddha" theory does not work for several reasons. Buddha did not consider
himself to be a god. Therefore, that really ends the discussion. But, if you want to use
it as an example anyway, what of all the cults who use words and titles in a bad way,
which Yahueh has applied to Himself?

We simply do not know how words today we use were used in the past. Adonai, etc.,
they were all used for pagan gods, but Yah applied them to Himself as well. How many
other words were used the same way? We don't know, and we don't know their origin
without a doubt.

It has to do with the personal language and understanding of each person.

Until you stop using el and elohim to refer to Yahueh, do not harp on people who use
God to refer to Him. For in fact, if they were both at one time ascribed to pagan gods,
they are now are used in reverence for our Most High Father.

Again, the problem stems from taking the name of a deity and applying it to Yahweh. If there is title already applied to Yahweh (such as Elohim) and another person wants to take that title and apply it to their deity..that is a whole different scenario.


Consider the fruit, for it proves the tree (Matt. 7:17,18). "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord (Yahueh), Lord (Yahueh), shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matt. 7:21

Until one can disprove the reality I have experienced, you are all speaking from theory. I have seen the hand of Yahueh move from doing His will, and language places no
barrier on Him.

The context of the very scripture you quoted above condemns any reliance upon the miracles/experiences. Yahshua's point was to be obedient to His word. His word clearly condemns these practices (as I've tried to illustrate in the previous post). It is up to us whether we will trust in the experience of man, or the word of Yahweh.

------------------
With love in His service,

EliYah

[This message has been edited by EliYah (edited 09-03-1999).]

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YoshaYah

Posts: 75
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posted 09-03-1999 03:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for YoshaYah   Click Here to Email YoshaYah     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
To OS;
"_____And this whole smoke screen avoids my question. Did or did not HaMaschiach,
quote Psalm 22:1, as written in Hebrew, and say, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani" (El of me, El"

"My Strenght, My Strenght..."
Did I not make two post, or did you just read the one you wanted to?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To Eliyah;
What you said earlier about "god" could not be put in any simpler words, you hit the mark dead center, its exactly how I feel.

NOW you can see how my beliefs on "el", "elohim", etc are justified.
We KNOW El was the chief "god" (gods are worthless, vain, hinder) of the Kenaanites. El literaly means god, and thier other gods where also el's or elohim.
We KNOW the Yisraylites TURNED to these elohim, against YHWH's Word. We KNOW the land was full of false prophets who severed these elohim and NOT YHWH. We know they didn't keep up YHWH's House (I wonder how they treated the Scriptures).
We KNOW the scribes have LYING PENS.
We KNOW the Masorites CHANGED or "made corrections" (yeah right) to the Sciptures.
We KNOW the rabbi's say the Name YHWH is taboo, and not to be uttered (so what will they call Him).
...I could go on and on

You probably see what I'm saying, but just to make it simpler, El has pagen roots, so we can in NO WAY refer to YHWH by it.

Now some, if not all of you all will now say, "well 'el' means 'strenght'.

0410 la 'el ale
shortened from 0352
, Greek 2241 hli and 1664 elioud; TWOT-93a; n m
1) god, god-like one, mighty one
1a) mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes
1b) angels
1c) god, false god, (demons, imaginations)
1d) God, the one true God, Jehovah
2) mighty things in nature
3) strength, power

0352 lya 'ayil ah'-yil
from the same as 0193; TWOT-45d, e, f, g; n m
1) ram
1a) ram (as food)
1b) ram (as sacrifice)
1c) ram (skin dyed red, for tabernacle)
2) pillar, door post, jambs, pilaster
3) strong man, leader, chief
4) mighty tree, terebinth

0193 lwa 'uwl ool
from an unused root meaning to twist, i.e. (by implication) be strong; TWOT-45a; n m
1) prominence
1a) body, belly (contemptuous)
1b) nobles, wealthy men

Now here are the poteintial questions;
1. Which words are the oldest (to mean strenght), 'uwl, 'ayil, or el (which isn't even pronouned "el" but "al").
2. When did "el", or more pronounciationally correct, 'al' become a "SHORTENED FORM" (another yeah right) of 'ayil, and by WHO'S AUTHORITY.
...I could got on and on with this also


El is in the SAME boat with "god", "theos", etc, which are ALL objects from the CARNAL-IMAGINATIONS OF MEN which refer to WORTHLESS, VAIN, HINDER, FULL OF "NOTHINGNESS" objectS of worship...while we KNOW there is none but YHWH.

NOTHING = 408 la 'al al

One more thing, here's a note from "Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament" on word #410('el).

"Note. Following most etymologist, I have above derived 'el from the root 'uwl; but to give my opinion more exactly, it appears rather to be a primitive word, the etymology being however adopted to the root 'uwl; so that to Hebrews this word would present the notion of strenght and power."

I wonder how many NON-RABBI scholars also share this belief?

"You either go with the flow, or don't go at all (be alone)."


May YHWH Guide Us All, Take Away the Fear of Loneliness From Us All, and Let Us All Know That With Him We CAN Never Be Alone
Shalom

[This message has been edited by YoshaYah (edited 09-03-1999).]

[This message has been edited by YoshaYah (edited 09-03-1999).]

[This message has been edited by YoshaYah (edited 09-03-1999).]

[This message has been edited by YoshaYah (edited 09-03-1999).]

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Nacharyah

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posted 09-04-1999 12:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Nacharyah   Click Here to Email Nacharyah     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
EliYah (and others),

This will be my last post to this thread, as it appears none of us will be changing our minds anytime soon. So, don't expect a reply if any of you reply with more of the same, or any false-accusations, etc., like I am used to on other bulletin boards, chat rooms, etc (isn't it sad how much reproach is brought to His Name through "His followers'" unholy actions?).

I understand where you are coming from. I hope you understand that! I suppose we differ on our interpretation of scripture. In my opinion, "God" is not the name of a pagan deity anymore. Yahueh's Word says we are not to call on the names of pagan deities, as you correctly noted. So, as I see it, it depends on the current use of the word. Just like the word "fuck" (please understand this is an example) used to mean "to plow dirt" "to copulate" and even "to breed (as in cattle)" in the olden Dutch, Swedish and Anglo-Saxon days. It was a commonly used word, with no bad connotation. Obviously, we know how it is used today. And so on it goes with many, many words. You get my point.

I would not call Yahueh "Krishna" or "Shiva" or "Sugmad" or any of the other pagan names that are used *today*, because that is the nature of language. I will also note that there is no proof that Yah first ascribed the "el" class of titles to Himself. There are many ancient writings and inscriptions in other cultures which have these same titles in reference to their gods. How can anyone say? Did not Yah tempt Abram to sacrifice his son, yet later condemned that action as a trait of false gods? We must be led by His Spirit, and know His voice.

As I mentioned, it all comes down to language and the meanings of words. I happen to believe, along with others, that words can have their meanings changed, including titles and names (and even objects, Num. 21:8,9; note Moses, and the serpent in the wilderness and how the serpent is an evil object in the rest of scripture). We obviously disagree on this point, and because this is a matter of scripture interpretation, I accept that. Do you?

One large reason many people use english translations for hebrew words, is to evangelize and witness to non-hebrews. Are you familiar with that? Like Paul did with the Athenians in Acts 17? Do you think Paul, being a Greek-speaker, spoke to the native Greeks in Athens in Hebrew? Do you think he used "elohim" in place of "theos" or "kyrios" when preaching? Let us be realistic. He would have been scorned to shame, and completely ignored, thereby missing a wonderful oppurtunity to witness. Language barriers exist, and we must be to each person we preach to as though we are one of them.

"For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you. Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible." 1 Cor. 9:19-25

Most Americans, and English-speaking people know that "God" means divine one, or creator, and is not the name of a false deity. Therefore, we witness to them on the level they are on, just as the disciples did. Why do you and others wish to depart from this scriptural precedent, which makes so much sense seeing it was instituted by His servants?

Let me clear up some confusion before I end posting to this thread.

I did not say miracles themselves necessarily prove anything. If you read my whole post, you would see that they are included in the list of things which Yahueh promises we can and are to do (preach the gospel, heal the sick, cast out devils, work miracles, etc). I will note that I have either done these things personally, or have seen them personally. My point was, if I have believed His Word, acted on it, and it has come to pass in my life, do you really believe this is the work of a pagan god? I think you need to rethink that (John 10:37,38, 14:11,12). What is the end result of the acts which are done? Are they in line with Yah's Word? If so, what do you think?

Good fruit cannot come from bad trees (Matt. 7:18). I understand that you cannot see my (or many others) fruit/works, so you cannot make a decision. That's ok, I cannot seek any of your works either. I know my works, and so do those who do them as well. Calling on His Name alone is not sufficient, for we must obey His Word.

Notice the scripure I quoted in my last message... Yahushua never admitted that they did the works they claimed to have done. For He never knew them, and said they "continually worked iniquity." If we have no good fruit to show, then we must be doing something wrong, and aren't really doing His will. Would you agree?

Yahueh's Word is very clear on what we are to be doing as followers of Yahushua. My point was, there are many people who are doing what He says, yes, even under different translations of His Name, and they are getting the same results which are seen in Acts. Therefore, you need to rethink what you are saying, as do many other people here who ride a hobby-horse on words, and are worshipping at the feet of language.

I have been led by the Spirit for over 18 years, since I was baptized into Him, and I have seen Him manifest discernment of spirits in my life (1 Cor. 12:10, Acts 16:16-18) many, many times (and let me tell you, there are *many* evil spirits roaming this earth). It is not hard to tell when someone is truly seeking the Elohim of Hosts, or whether they are being led astray into some extreme by a seducing spirit.

I, myself, have dedicated my life to the ministry of Yahueh, and refuse to spend my time arguing over something which I have no conviction about, despite repeated prayer and study of the Word. I will not defend what I have seen, because Yahueh is Judge, and He knows my heart.

I wish you all the best of life in Yah, and pray that all of you are continually led into truth by the ministry of Yahueh and His Son Yahushua, by Their Holy Spirit. I pray that each one of you enters into the world to reach the lost in the power of the Holy Spirit, if you have not yet, and obeys all of His Word, and not only the commands concerning His Name.

Let us fulfill the Great Commission (Mark 16:15-18), and so do His will.

Love in the Messiah,
Nacharyah

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YoshaYah

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posted 09-04-1999 02:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for YoshaYah   Click Here to Email YoshaYah     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
"Good fruit cannot come from bad trees (Matt. 7:18)."
EXACTLY, I couldn't have said it better myself.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The WORLD may "change", words may "change"...but YHWH NEVER changes.


Shalom

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OldShepherd

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posted 09-05-1999 05:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for OldShepherd   Click Here to Email OldShepherd     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
YoshaYah,

Until your second "My Strength, My Strength..." post I had no idea what it was in reference to, since you did not address anyone or any question in particular.

Ps 22:1 To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David.>> Eli, Eli lamah azavthani (My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me)? why art thou so far from y@shuw`ah (helping me), and from the words of my roaring?
2 Elohahi (O my God), I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.

Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Joh 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

_____Is it your contention that when Yeshuah cried out on the cross "Eli, Eli", He was saying "My Strength, My Strength...?" The Son of the Creator, who could do nothing of Himself, quoting Psalms 22 which is clearly addressed to the Creator, was crying out to His own physical strength? Btw, His last words "It is finished," are also the last words of Ps 22, in Hebrew.
_____The word "El" for strength is only used 5 times in the TaNaKH, Gen 31:29, Prov 3:27, Mic 2:1, Deu 28:32, and Neh 5:5 and always with lamed preposition. However as "Eli", "My God", 13 times. BDB pp. 42-43

"translated to fit some pre-existant beliefs. . .These passages seem to be falsely translated. "the scribes have LYING PENS. . .the Masorites CHANGED. . the Sciptures."

_____Here are four separate statements alleging that the scriptures are false and or corrupted. Are you perhaps working on a "new" Bible that is not falsely translated and not written by "lying" scribes? When the Bible doesn't say what I want it to say here are four ready made excuses to interpret it to suit me.

_____The "lying pen of the scribes" seems to be a favorite cop-out around here. I have posted several times, a study of that verse in context which proves that it does not say that.

Jer 8:7 Yea, the stork in the heaven knows her appointed times; and the turtle and the crane and the swallow observe the time of their coming; but my people know not the judgment of the LORD.
8 How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain
made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.

_____In vain did the scribes write because the people thought they were wise simply because they had the law, although they rejected it (v. 9) and did not live by it.
Jer 8:9 The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; and what wisdom is in them?


_____How could the "wise men" reject the word of YHWH, if the scribes were lying?

ZaQuNRaAHYaHuW

[This message has been edited by OldShepherd (edited 09-06-1999).]

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Lou

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posted 09-05-1999 11:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lou   Click Here to Email Lou     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
The problem with false doctrines is that they propagate faster than the truth. I took a hard look into the YL versus EL (i.e. Strength versus Might) arguments and was not one bit convinced. So I won't switch my last name to "Hawkins."

The question is, who was using El Elohim first? All evidence points to Yahweh.

Most likely Hebrew was the language spoken in the Garden of Eden. It was not called Hebrew because it didn't have to be differenciated. People spoke only one language then. Until Babel Yahweh was known also by his title El Elohim. At that time he was the only one using it until people came up with the idea of new "mighty ones" at about the time of Nimrod. After the language confusion, Canaan was stuck with a language different from the language spoken by Abraham. Abraham's language took the name of Hebrew probably after his descendant Eber. In any case, Abraham's language was never "confused." Abraham preserved the knowledge of the name and titles of our Creator. It is very significant that Abraham descends from the line of Shem ("name.") After the Canaanean language came about they must have heard about El Elohim from the descendants of Shem and copied it. This is not as bad as what the Christians are doing today of taking the Heathen name of an idol and use it as a proper personal noun to substitute Yahweh with it. So I would say that the Canaaneans were the ones who expropriated the rightful title of Yahweh and converted it into the actual personal name of an idol. EL became a proper noun of the Canaanean idol that was later easily embraced by some rebellious Israelites. The Israelites in the desert took an Egyptian calf and named it "Yahweh," too. So there is a precedent to prove what I'm saying. My point is that the Heathen used to work in reverse of what the Christians do today. They used to take the rightful name and title of Yahweh and gave them to their idols. Today, the Christians and a lot of Jews take the name and titles of Heathen idols and give them to Yahweh.

I'm trying to apply common sense and the right time frame into this argument. Mr. Hawkins is pushing the idea that Canaan came up with the name for their idol on their own without knowledge that El was already in use by the Hebrews. EL already meant "mighty" in Hebrew and it was obviously used to refer to Yahweh's title. I tried to follow Mr. Hawkins argument and got lost several times because he doesn’t apply the right time frames. His assertion on when "they" changed all reference from "YL" to EL or from Yahweh or Father to EL is totally in the wrong time frame. If I may borrow from one of YoshaYah's assertions I'd say, "WE ALL KNOW" that the statement about Yahushua calling on his "Strength" from the stake is quite a bit off. But then again, false doctrines have a way of propagating faster than the truth.

When the alphabet for each one of the new languages was developed it is possible that Canaan took the lead to put in writing the noun EL and that is why they are crediting Canaan as the originator of the name EL for their idol. Based on this circumstantial "evidence" Mr. Hawkins rewrote the Scriptures with his own pen and eliminated all references to "might" (EL) and replaced them with "strength" (YL) or in other cases with "father" or even "Yahweh." However, he left untouched all references to Almighty taken from El-Shadai. Dani-El, "My Mighty Judge" became Dani-yl, "My Strong Judge." Although, Mr. Hawkins translates Daniel's -YL not as strong or strength, but as might (i.e. making the rules as the game is played). Israel became Israyl, and so on. It is very obvious that Mr. Hawkins put together a Bible the way he thought it ought to have been written.

By the way, if I remember correctly, one of the 613 rules on this forum was to abstain from using large (loud) characters to push one's point. I'm trying to stick to this rule, but I see other members violating this rule, and getting away with it (i.e. YoshaYah).

Shavua Tov!
Lou

[This message has been edited by Lou (edited 09-05-1999).]

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YoshaYah

Posts: 75
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posted 09-05-1999 11:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for YoshaYah   Click Here to Email YoshaYah     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
OS,
Yahshua was not calling on own physical strenght, but be was calling on YHWH. Did you completly read my post? I was going to copy and paste it but you can just go back to it. There is a list of scripture that shows that YHWH is our strenght (not our own physical).

And why is it that now you want to go against a "traditional" translation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is that your first time going against 'the King' (James that is). But anyway can you give me the link to your study.


Lou,
You make it seem as if I'm a follower of Mr. Hawkins, well I'm not. And what 613 forum laws are you reffering to, I know nothing of them.

How can Elohim mean mighty? Is it not the plural-femanine of El.

Shalom

[This message has been edited by YoshaYah (edited 09-05-1999).]

[This message has been edited by YoshaYah (edited 09-05-1999).]

[This message has been edited by YoshaYah (edited 09-05-1999).]

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OldShepherd

Posts: 672
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posted 09-06-1999 08:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for OldShepherd   Click Here to Email OldShepherd     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
YoshaYah

"Yahshua was not calling on own physical strenght, but be was calling on YHWH."
_____My point exactly! And He addressed YHWH as "El". Therefore how does that reconcile with your previous statement?

"WHY CAN'T WE LABEL YHWH AS "A" GOD(EL). BECAUSE YHWH SAID THERE IS NO OTHER BUT HIM. HE ALSO SAID GODS(ELOHIM) ARE WORTHLESS, VAIN, HINDER."

"And why is it that now you want to go against a "traditional" translation. . . 'the King' (James that is)."
_____I didn't! My scripture quote was pasted right out of King Jimmy. I did change a few words, e.g. thee and thou to "you". If you do not have a KJV to verify it, it is available online at the site below, also from Eliyah's Homepage, "Concordance" button.
http://www.khouse.org/blueletter/

_____It is the modern (per)versions that translate sheqer, in that passage, as "lying."
_____Nevertheless, I occasionally prefer to use a "better" translation of a Hebrew or Greek word, when it fits the context. Sometimes, while not "wrong", the versions do have translations, from the original, which can be expressed better by other English words.

"But anyway can you give me the link to your study."
_____There is no link, it is my own study. What I posted above is how I view those passages in context. Although I have in the past consulted commentaries, e.g. Gill's and Matthew Henry's, et. al.
_____If the word sheqer in Jer v. 8 is translated "lying" rather than vain, as in KJV, both "correct" translations, then YHWH is condemning "my people", v. 7, and "the wise men", v. 9, for something they had no control over. They couldn't know His judgement or reject His law if what the scribes wrote were lies.
_____Also if the scribes were lying to what part of scripture does that apply? Only the scripture prior to this revelation or all scripture then and now? If the scribes were "lying" up to that point would not YHWH, having pointed this out to His people, ensure that the scribes told the truth after that or would He just let them keep filling His word with their "lies"? And if the scribes were "lying" why has YHWH not corrected that part of the scripture?
_____As for the rules for this forum click on the "Disclaimer", above. There you will find, among others, this rule.

"* Please refrain from excessive cyberscreaming (CAPS and many !!!!) in your messages. Just state your point. Bold, underline and colors are fine."

_____Just a hint. When you find it necessary to edit your post, more than one time, you can delete the previous messages at the bottom, i.e. (This message has been edited by. . .), leaving only the one from the current post. That way you do not have a stack of "edited" messages at the bottom.

ZaQuNRaAHYaHuW

[This message has been edited by OldShepherd (edited 09-06-1999).]

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YoshaYah

Posts: 75
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posted 09-07-1999 07:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for YoshaYah   Click Here to Email YoshaYah     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
OS, how do you explain the fact that all Hebrew scripture isen't the same? Did you read Kathryn's study? She pointed out differences between Hebrew texts.

The DDS is the oldest (that I'm told) Scriptural Text ever found. The DDS has things not in today's Scripture, and vis-versa. And, the masorites told us they changed Scripture.

What is your explaination for this? Can anyone explain this?


Shalom

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