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Author Topic:   Understanding the Apostle Paul
RaYBaG

Posts: 57
Registered: Jul 1999

posted 07-07-1999 09:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for RaYBaG   Click Here to Email RaYBaG     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote

Almost two millenia ago, a "new" religion was formed, and like a snowball rolling downhill, it has grown to become the number one religion in the world. It has also produced a multitude of "spin-off" religions in the process. What is it, some may ask? Today it is known by many names, due to the spin-offs, but those who follow it call it Christianity. My question to all of those who read this is, "Did the Apostle Paul, as many people believe, begin this religion called Christianity?" This is the question that has been put on the table, now let us, through the Word of our Heavenly Father, seek to find the truth of the matter at hand.

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Torah

Posts: 444
Registered: May 99

posted 07-07-1999 02:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Torah   Click Here to Email Torah     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Paul may not really be that hard to understand.

What is the best way to destroy an organization? Is it not through infiltration or becoming one with them to destroy them from within? Paul had been unsuccessful in accomplishing his goal of destroying the followers of the Messiah so maybe he decided on a new tactic.

Look what he says about himself here in
1 Corinthians 9:20-22
And I became as a Jew to the Jews, that I might gain Jews; to those under Torah as under Torah, that I might gain those under Torah; to those without Torah as without Torah, not being without the Torah of YHUH but under the Torah of Christ, that I might gain those without Torah. To the weak I became as weak that I might gain the weak. To all I have become all things, that in any case I might save some.

Torah

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Don
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posted 07-07-1999 03:18 PM           Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Don't blame paul for what the Emperor Constantine and the Gnostic Sorcerer Priests did re-invented their pagan religion/s and called it christianity.

Don

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RaYBaG

Posts: 57
Registered: Jul 1999

posted 07-07-1999 05:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for RaYBaG   Click Here to Email RaYBaG     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
The passage in 1 Corinthians 9:20-22 is not about infiltration, but about Pauls dedication to winning souls. "The fruit of thee righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise." Proverbs 11:30 Here, Paul is only attending to the needs and aspirations, strenghths and weaknesses, opportunities and constraints, or ideas and feelings of the people he comes in contact with. He is only establishing common ground, by making it a point not to offend them, doing everything possible to overcome all barriers in order to share the Word of G-D. There is no underhanded method to establish Christianity in these verses.

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Torah

Posts: 444
Registered: May 99

posted 07-10-1999 11:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Torah   Click Here to Email Torah     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
According to your theory, Don and RaYBaG, its alright to become:

    an idol worshipper to gain idol worshippers.
    a follower of false gods to gain those who follow false gods.
    a pagan to gain pagans.
    a heathen to gain heathens.
    a Christian to gain Christians.
    a Moslem to gain Mosems.
    a Hindu to gain Hindus.
    a Catholic to gain Catholics.
    an opostate to gain apostates.
    a lier to gain liers.
    a murder to gain murders.
    a gay to gain gays.
    a prostitute to gain prostitutes.
    an adulterer to gain adulterers.
    etc., etc., etc.

Torah

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Lou

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posted 07-10-1999 09:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lou   Click Here to Email Lou     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
I'm a bit concerned when I hear Shaul saying "To all I have become all things, that in any case I might save some." Since when is Shaul/Paul empowered to save anyone?

Yeshayahu/Isaiah 43:11 * I, even I, am YAHWEH, and apart from me there is no savior.

Was it a poor and careless choice of words on the part of Shaul?... Just a thought...

Shavua tov!
Lou

[This message has been edited by Lou (edited 07-10-1999).]

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RaYBaG

Posts: 57
Registered: Jul 1999

posted 07-11-1999 04:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for RaYBaG   Click Here to Email RaYBaG     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Paul's, becoming this or that, is not saying that he became an idol worshipper, or a Moslem, or anything eelse for that matter. He comes from a perspective that the person with whom he is sharing the Word can relate, nothing more. D'vorah gave a very enlightening commentary on this matter. Also, lets not forget that Paul also said, Gal 2:20, "...yet not I, but Messiah liveth in me..," and 1 Cor 11:1, "Be ye followers of me, even as I am also of Messiah." It is not as if Paul is asserting that he is saving people, but he acknowledges that he is only a vessel that is being used to bring mankind to the Messiah, likewise, we all are used of Y-H-W-H in the same fashion, Rom 12:1.
Again, we must take into consideration Prov.11:30, "...he that winneth souls is wise." We have an obligation to teach mankind the truth of the bible, and it should be done wisely or with wisdom, as Paul said, Heb 5:13, "For everyone who useth milk is unskillful in the Word of righteousness: for he is a babe," inferring that one can be skillfull in the Word, or in other words, have wisdom. As Yahshua admonishes us, Matt 10:16, "...be ye therefore wise as serpents..."

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Katar ben Tsur

Posts: 170
Registered: May 99

posted 07-11-1999 05:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Katar ben Tsur   Click Here to Email Katar ben Tsur     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Paul is tough to understand, but he is not the focus of our faith. Yeshua is.

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Torah

Posts: 444
Registered: May 99

posted 07-11-1999 06:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Torah   Click Here to Email Torah     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
That is easy for you or anyone else to say, RaYBaG, but you are not the one who has to deal with the things that began to jump out a me as I read the NT after I began praying for discernment. I saw none of these conflicts prior to this.

Torah

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Lou

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posted 07-11-1999 07:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lou   Click Here to Email Lou     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
I do have great respect for Shaul... at one time he stated...

Philippians 4:2 * I plead with Euodia and I plead with Syntyche to agree with each other in Yahweh.
3 Yes, and I ask you, loyal yokefellow, help these women who have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.

My question is, How is Shaul capable of making such statement? At the final day of judgment the books will be open. At first sight I wondered how did he know? But when I read the context of this paragraph in his letter, I can see that Shaul is OK, after his confession...

2 Corinthians 12:16 * Be that as it may, I have not been a burden to you. Yet, crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery!

Is this an example of how to be "shrewd as snakes?" I'm only asking from a neutral position... I want to be very careful how I read anything.

Shalom,
Lou

[This message has been edited by Lou (edited 07-11-1999).]

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RaYBaG

Posts: 57
Registered: Jul 1999

posted 07-12-1999 02:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for RaYBaG   Click Here to Email RaYBaG     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Torah, 1 Cor 9:20-22 is only one passage, and it is not enough on which to base the assertion that Paul founded Christianity, considering it doesn't mean what you think it does. The topic at hand must be examined in reference to ALL of the epistles of Paul, in addition to his life, and the truth must then be weighed in the balance. Not only did Paul NOT found Christianity, Paul never swayed from the teachings that were handed down to him, via teacher to student, Acts 22:3, as was the way of Israel. The only difference is that those things which Paul had been taught were now brought to life through Yahshua HaMashiach, as was the intent of Phil 3:8. In Acts 21:24, "...but that thou thyself also walkest orderly and keepest the law," and Acts 24:14 "But this I confess unto thee that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the G-D of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and the prophets." These are just a couple of verses which prove that point. Even taken in context with the whole of the passages in which they are found, the meaning remains the same, Paul was still an observant Jew.

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RaYBaG

Posts: 57
Registered: Jul 1999

posted 07-12-1999 03:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for RaYBaG   Click Here to Email RaYBaG     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Katar Ben Tsur, I agree 100% that Paul is not and should not be the focus of our faith. You have no disagreement there. Neither was the topic posed to do anything of that nature. What we must do, as believers, is bring to light the truth of the Word of G-D as a whole. The reason the topic was posed is because of the doctrines that are running that Paul founded Christianity, this is a fallacy, and cannot be supported by his epistles, when studied in their proper context. Besides, his epistles, which comprise the majority of the N.T., do nothing but promote Yahshua HaMashiach.

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RaYBaG

Posts: 57
Registered: Jul 1999

posted 07-12-1999 03:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for RaYBaG   Click Here to Email RaYBaG     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Lou, no, that is not an example of what Yahshua was talking about. Read the following commentary on this passage to see what is really being said:

2 Corinthians 12:16

"[But be it so, I did not burden you] That is: You grant that I did not burden you, that I took nothing from you, but preached to you the Gospel freely; but you say that, BEING CRAFTY, I caught you with guile; i. e. getting from you, by means of others, what I pretended to be unwilling to receive immediately from yourselves.
"Many persons suppose that the words, being crafty, I caught you with guile, are the words of the apostle, and not of his slanderers; and therefore have concluded that it is lawful to use guile, deceit, etc., in order to serve a good and a religious purpose. This doctrine is abominable; and the words are most evidently those of the apostle's detractors, against which he defends his conduct in the two following verses.
(from Adam Clarke Commentary)

Here is a good explanation of the passage in question. In addition, here is a better translation of the passage:

16 Some of you admit I was not a burden to you. But they still think I was sneaky and took advantage of you by trickery.
Holy Bible, New Living Translation, (Wheaton, IL: Tyndale House Publishers, Inc.) 1996.

[This message has been edited by RaYBaG (edited 07-12-1999).]

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shlameal

Posts: 270
Registered: Feb 99

posted 07-12-1999 04:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for shlameal   Click Here to Email shlameal     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote

Greetings,

I think this passage someone quoted, sums up the whole Paul-deal quite nicely:

1 Cor 11:1, "Be ye followers of me, even as I am also of Messiah."

The Messiah worshipped the one true Creator, whilst Paul worshipped the Messiah, do you follow the Messiah (and worship the Creator) or do you follow Paul (and worship the Messiah)?

Peace,

[i]shlameal[ite].

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Torah

Posts: 444
Registered: May 99

posted 07-12-1999 07:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Torah   Click Here to Email Torah     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
shlameal, it is amazing just how many people there are that cannot grasp the truth of what you have just posted.

Torah

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