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Author Topic:   Paul's Authority
Katar ben Tsur

Posts: 170
Registered: May 99

posted 05-27-1999 07:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Katar ben Tsur   Click Here to Email Katar ben Tsur     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Nowhere in the Gospels can you find that Yeshua voided or nullified the Torah. Let me remind you that 1 Jn 3:4 says that 'sin is the transgression of the Law'. Yeshua couldn't have advocated abolishing the Torah without being a sinner and subject to the death penalty for doing so (see Dt. 13).

So, on what authority did Paul void and nullify the Torah? And why wasn't he put to death? Would you have us believe that Yeshua merely 'pump faked' to the Disciples and then 'threw long' to Paul?

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shlameal

Posts: 270
Registered: Feb 99

posted 05-27-1999 08:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for shlameal   Click Here to Email shlameal     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote

I'm wondering if anyone here has heard of or read "The mythmaker"?

I was told it is a very good book about Paul and his situation as compared with that of the original companions of the Messiah (peace be upon him).

Peace,

[i]shameal[ite].

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Boulden-Jonathan Wayne

Posts: 356
Registered: Feb 99

posted 05-27-1999 10:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Boulden-Jonathan Wayne     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
.

[This message has been edited by Boulden-Jonathan Wayne (edited 05-07-2000).]

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r s neaville

Posts: 62
Registered: Apr 99

posted 05-28-1999 02:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for r s neaville   Click Here to Email r s neaville     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
We would have have to through away the whole thing if you excluded paul. read what peter said about him. the early apostles all offered the right hand of fellowship to him in Acts. If you Lose him, you lose it all...rsn

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PoliticsForum.Com

Posts: 18
Registered: May 99

posted 05-28-1999 02:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PoliticsForum.Com   Click Here to Email PoliticsForum.Com     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Anyone who wants a copy of "The Mythmaker" email me your adress privately and will send you one free...
Just pay for the postage...about $1.70 or so...

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Politics Forum
www.politicsforum.com/forums/Ultimate.cgi

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PoliticsForum.Com

Posts: 18
Registered: May 99

posted 05-28-1999 02:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PoliticsForum.Com   Click Here to Email PoliticsForum.Com     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
quote:
it was being promoted by "roots of faith", (an email nightmare).

How so?

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Politics Forum
www.politicsforum.com/forums/Ultimate.cgi

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Boulden-Jonathan Wayne

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posted 05-28-1999 11:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Boulden-Jonathan Wayne     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
*

[This message has been edited by Boulden-Jonathan Wayne (edited 05-07-2000).]

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Katar ben Tsur

Posts: 170
Registered: May 99

posted 05-28-1999 11:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Katar ben Tsur   Click Here to Email Katar ben Tsur     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
No one has answered the question.

On whose authority did Paul void and nullify the Torah?

Cite chapter and verse if you can.

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Katar ben Tsur

Posts: 170
Registered: May 99

posted 05-28-1999 11:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Katar ben Tsur   Click Here to Email Katar ben Tsur     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
If you excluded Paul, you would still have I and II Peter, I,II,III John, James,Jude, Revelation, Acts AND the Gospels.

Seems most Christians quote Paul more than their Saviour.

If anyone can show even one place where Yeshua nullified the Torah, then I will concede Paul had the authority.

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r s neaville

Posts: 62
Registered: Apr 99

posted 05-29-1999 01:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for r s neaville   Click Here to Email r s neaville     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
If peter telling people to listen to Paul , even though he is hard to understand, is not enough, what then? if the apstles giving Paul their hands in fellowship is not enough for his Authority, what then? Paul wrote the majority of what we call the new testament,so what do you do with that/ throw it away? The reason the Gospel spread to most of the world is due to the ministry of Paul,,,God blessed it with signs and wonders...Luke chronicled it in acts..do we get rid of Luke too? we are talking grounded in the very origins of Christianity. if Paul did wrong in his teachings why did not the Apostles reject him? did they to turn on Christ's teaching? I think you should rethink your position, rsn

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uriah7

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posted 05-29-1999 03:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for uriah7   Click Here to Email uriah7     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Shalom Aleichem,
Good point D'vorah. Katar, do you feel that Paul was teaching that the law has been abolished? Actually, I'm not sure just what exactly what you are trying to claim.

Is it your contention that Paul was teaching that adherence to Torah was no longer necassary? Personally, I don't read this in Paul's letters. In fact, I see Paul promoting Torah for sanctification, and not for justification.

These two areas, sanctification and justification, are had in confusion today and that is why we have more debate and argument than is necessary. Therefore, let us state our terms and definitions of the key words that we use.

I don't claim that this is the most concise description, but it is a start.

First, perfect obedience to Torah was never meant as a means of attaining to atonement and thereby life, which is what I mean by justification, to be made righteous before God and receiving remission for your sins which are past(Romans 3:25; Galatians 3:21).

I believe that the scriptures teach justification by faith as illustrated with Abraham in Genesis 15:6;

And he believed in Yahweh; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Which illustration is repeated(By Paul no less.)in Romans chapter 4:1-5;

What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before El.

For what sayeth the scripture? Abraham believed El, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Secondly, Torah is the means whereby we are sanctified and cleansed of our lawless habits. Indeed, when you have received the new life, you still have old habits and ways that are not of Avinu(our father). Psalms 119:9-11 reads;

Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.

With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.

Thy word have I hid in my heart, that I might not sin against thee.

Or as Paul wrote in 2Thessalonians 2:13

But we are bound to give thanks alway to El for you, brethren beloved of Yah, because El hath chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Just what is truth? Funny, Pilot asked the same question as it was standing right there in front of him. For wasn't Yahushua the embodiment of Torah, the word made flesh?

What is truth which Paul would have us to believe in?

In Psalm 119:142 reads:

Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, AND THY LAW IS THE TRUTH.

uriah7@yahoo.com

[This message has been edited by uriah7 (edited 05-29-99).]

[This message has been edited by uriah7 (edited 05-29-99).]

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Kathryn

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posted 05-29-1999 05:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kathryn   Click Here to Email Kathryn     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
I believe that Katar is simply saying, that if someone says that Shaul nullified Torah, made it obsolete, he had to have authority to do so. Therefore produce the proofs, Scripture verses that prove he was given the authoriy to nullify it. But that proof does not exist, the Scriptures for such a transferral do not exist, therefore Shaul did not have authority to nullify Torah. Katar know this and is trying to make it obvious to those that claim Shaul did. He is trying to make them prove their point Scripturally, which they cannot. Nowhere does Yahushaa give this authority to nullify Torah, to his talmiydiym [disciples]; nowhere do the talmiydiym, now called sheliychiym [apostles] give this "so called authority" to Shaul. Therefore, Shaul does not have any authority to nullify Torah and the commands of Yahushaa, to obey Torah, stands.

For those of you who think that Shaul is speaking contrary to Torah, you need to get an Aramaic Peshitta with the Hebrew translation. It is very obvious, that Shaul does not say, what the Greek text and the Greek oriented English Christian translators make him say. The Hebrew text of the Scriptures, that most call NT, flow so perfectly with the Tanakh, they affirm and witness to everything that is in it. The terminology is the same as that of the Tanakh, as is the mindset and the Hebrewness of the people and their ways and their relationship to Yahuweh. You read of Menoroth [lampstands] and shopharoth [rams horns], not candlesticks, lampstands or trumpets.

Romaniy [Romans] 1:1-6, " 'Shaul, a servant of Yahushaa HaMashiach, called and sent, who was separated to the basorah [good news, joyful message] of Yahuweh; which He had promised before, by His nebiiy [prophets], in the Kethiyb HaQodesh [Writings of the Set-Apart One-Scriptures]; about His Son, who was born in the flesh, from the seed of the beyth Dawid [house of Dawid], and was made known as Ben Yahuweh [Son of Yahuweh], by Yahuweh and the Ruach Yahuweh; who rose from the dead, Yahushaa HaMashiach Adonaynu [Our Adonay - Master]; by whom we have received [qabal] mercy [hesed], and a sending out to all the Goyiym [Gentiles], with the purpose of their hearing [shema] to obey the Faith (post Biblical term for the belief in Yahuweh), in His Name; that you also, from them (the Goyiym), you were called to Torah by Yahushaa HaMashiach;' "

This is not the same "Paul" that the Greek, English translators portray. This is Shaul, a Hebrew of Hebrews, trained in the Torah and understanding its message of salvation and way of life in Yahuweh. Imagine, calling Goyiym to The Faith, to observe Torah. What was Shaul thinking? He was thinking of their souls!

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Mattityahu

Posts: 298
Registered: Dec 98

posted 05-29-1999 08:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mattityahu   Click Here to Email Mattityahu     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Paul/Shaul did NOT write in Hebrew. No one but Yahudim understood Hebrew, and Paul's message was to the GENTILES. They did not speak the native tongue of a small backwater Roman province. I personally think that MattitYahu is the ONLY NT book originally written in Hebrew, but I have no proof of this. This makes sense, though, beacause this book is the only NT one that contains the Sacred Name in its title(MattitYAHU).
Shalom,
Matthew

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Katar ben Tsur

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Registered: May 99

posted 05-30-1999 04:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Katar ben Tsur   Click Here to Email Katar ben Tsur     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Dvorah,

Now sweat. I do the same thing myself. I hope you had a true sabbath of peace!
Thank G-d for people of like mind. At times it seems like a lonely row to hoe, but I am always encouraged when I stumble across people who have begun their own Exodus from Ramah. Truly, a mixed multitude.

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uriah7

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posted 05-30-1999 04:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for uriah7   Click Here to Email uriah7     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
The same goes here for me as well Katar,
After re-reading your question, I sense that you are not disputing Paul, but challenging those that claim Paul was teaching the abolition of Torah. My appologies. No complaints here. May Yahweh make us all to be of one mind, and to speak the same things in love. For what army goes about doing "that which is right in it's own eyes?" They would soon be mowed down like the grass in our lawns.

Any body seen a march for Jesus rally lately? What a joke. No uniformity, no co-hesiveness, NO EFFECTIVENESS! (Yawn), somebody please, call the police, I'm scared.

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