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  Inspired glitch in Shaul/Paul's testimony? (Page 1)

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Author Topic:   Inspired glitch in Shaul/Paul's testimony?
Lou

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posted 01-23-1999 11:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lou   Click Here to Email Lou     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
The more fantastic and far out the testimony of a Christian "conversion" the more credible. Christians need to be told what to believe and they will defend it to the last breath. In the early days of Christianity a lot of them ended up eaten by animals. In fact, some of the early church fathers were looking forward with eagerness to die that way. Unlike all the apostles of Yahushua, Shaul's "conversion" was one of a kind. Constantine's "conversion" was similar to Shaul's. Both were base an a fantastic vision. Nobody did or dared to question Constantine's testimony and no Christian will fare well questioning Shaul's or any of the early church fathers' testimonies, either. But, I'm not a Christian, so I'm free to do so. It appears to be that either the "holy spirit" had an "inspiration" glitch or Luke was given the wrong information about Shaul's conversion. Let's check Luke's record. He seems to be an honest Christian...

Luke 1:1-3 * Forasmuch as many (there were a few dozen "gospels" written by the early church fathers of which only 4 were approved as canonical) have taken in hand to draw up a narrative concerning those matters which have been fulfilled among us, even as they delivered them unto us, who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word, it seemed good to me also (Luke is not implying here that the Ruach HaQodesh is "inspiring" his writing), having traced the course of all things accurately from the first, to write unto thee in order...

Luke wanted to write an ACCURATE account of ALL that transcended in those days in the land of Israel. He probably didn't think that some of the available records were accurate. Thanks to Luke we know about Shaul's "conversion." Believe it or not, a whole bunch of early church fathers were puzzled about Shaul's "conversion." This subject was discussed in several of their writings. That's how I discovered this glitch. There seems to be a major inconsistency in Shaul's testimony of his "conversion" according to Luke's "having traced the course of all things accurately from the first", and Shaul's own personal statement...

LUKE says...
Acts 9:7 * And the men that journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing the voice, but beholding no man.

SHAUL says...
Acts 22:9 * And they that were with me beheld indeed the light, but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

In Acts 9 it is implied that the men that went with Shaul did not see the bright light, in Acts 22 Shaul says that they did. Oh, well. Apparently the NT is not fully debugged yet.

Shabbat Shalom,
Lou

[This message has been edited by Lou (edited 04-15-2000).]

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tapeinoo

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posted 01-23-1999 11:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for tapeinoo   Click Here to Email tapeinoo     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Dear Lou:

Clearing up alleged Bible discrepancies is becoming a regular occurrence for me with you. You say you studied this in the Greek? How well do you know Greek? It should have cleared it up for you.

In 9:7; the men who traveled with Saul heard the sound (phones), but in 22:9 Luke wrote they did not understand the voice (phonen). Literally, that clause in 22:9 may be translated, "They did not hear the sound." The NIV correctly translates the verse, because the verb "to hear" with the genitive case may mean "to hear a sound" and with the accusative case "to hear with understanding." The genitive case is employed in 9:7, and the accusative is used in 22:9. So the travelers with Saul heard the sound (9:7) but did not understand what Christ said (22:9).

Once again you have failed to utilize your God given common sense on this one. Since you believed this to be a contradiction, how could you think the same author would contradict himself within the same book? How could you on one hand think all kinds of doctoring went on in the NT, but on the other hand think something as obvious as this would not have been fixed?

I don't know Lou, you might want to sit back before you come out with another alleged contradiction and think more about it next time.

Sincerely,

Tapeinoo

[This message has been edited by tapeinoo (edited 01-23-99).]

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Br Jerry

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posted 01-23-1999 12:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Br Jerry   Click Here to Email Br Jerry     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Dear tapeinoo (is that taping you or tap anew?)
Your cassock keeps showing. The brilliant minds within the Church have used rock-solid logic, carefully devised oratory and the written word to wonderfully defend the faith and apostolic succession, all of which was wasted on a false premise. I am familiar enough with the Jesuit Order, to understand the danger it poses. Your arguments all rely on these aforementioned factors. Yahushua told Kepha (Peter) that flesh and blood had not revealed the reality of His true identity as the Son of the living Elohim, The Anointed One. His Father in Heaven through the power of Ruach was the True Revelator and upon that (The power of Ruach HaQodesh) He built His Church and the gates of hell/sheol/death could not prevail against it. Kepha went on to deny Him three times. Kepha died, the gates of hell/sheol/death claimed Kepha. If Kepha were the one given the keys, his denial would have broken his bond with Yahushua. He therefore loosed, in this denial, his bond with HaMashiyach.
Please rethink, no, tap-anew the Spirit. He will lead us into all truth, not with dead mens words, but living testimony.
You wield a sword that can only bring death, the Spirit makes alive. It is THE two-edged sword spoken of by Yahushua, that is doing the dividing work.
"Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!"
Yes, the Kingdom of YHWH is at the door.
Br. Jerry of Qumran Bet, in case this is mis-posted as Sis Juanita. We have been having some problems with forum recognition.

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DeAnna

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posted 01-23-1999 02:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DeAnna   Click Here to Email DeAnna     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Lou & BR Jerry,

Saul was a "learned" man... He knew "Hebrew", Only well educated, wealthy ones did. The scripture says he spoke to him in a "Hebrew" tongue.. So it makes sense that they around him would not understand what the voice was saying...

Now the very "intellegent", opposed to "gullable", point that Tapeinoo is makeing here is the book of acts had one author. Keep in mind here that the "new testament" was written over a peroid of 40 to 60 years after the messiahs death. & Paul was in prison, Peter died in the holy land, don't know just where Luke was, but I know it wasn't in prison with Paul. So if you ask me, for the "flesh"... to write so many different books, being so far apart... so many years apart, they have a pretty darn good memory, & very close in accounts.

I percieve that you give no credit to the NT anyway. Thats ok,
What's not ok, for your sake it's not, is that you have not the love of the father in you... Why may I make such a statement!
Because if indeed you felt you had the truth, then it stands to reason that you would be spreading that wonderful truth, and would want others to have it as well. Instead you cast insults & snide remarks. Is this a way to bring someone to the truth?
I speak this to your shame.

If you say in your heart, "I never claimed to have the truth",
Then I say to yoiu, Don't take away what you cannot replace 10fold, For Yahweh is Just... hit your knees & pray him to have mercy that he not take away from you 10fold. These words are for you, not against you.

If you recieve these words, then you are one step closer to the love of Yahweh. If you say in your heart "foolishness".
Then I say Shalom to you, and to all that cross your path.

[This message has been edited by DeAnna (edited 01-23-99).]

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Lou

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posted 01-23-1999 09:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lou   Click Here to Email Lou     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Shalom DeAnna,
Sorry about my foul mouth, I believe that I picked it up after reading the "EARLY CHURCH FATHERS." I'm also sorry that I don't know much about being politically correct. I'm not planning to get a following, so I 'm a bit careless about pleasing everybody. I don't have the full truth. I'm getting bits and pieces of it that I share here in this forum. I know the Christian line. I used to be a Christian. Christians are not after the truth, they feel that they have it already... I can be dead wrong in everything that I post in here so don't take me seriously until you see the full documentation.
Shavua tov!
Lou

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Lou

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posted 01-23-1999 09:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lou   Click Here to Email Lou     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Please remember that I learned about Shaul's inconsitent testimony reading the early church fathers. They knew there was an inconsistency in Shaul's testimony, and I'm bound to believe it. They were much closer than any of us to where the action was, and if they said that there was an inconsistency in Shaul's testimony, there must have been one.

[This message has been edited by Lou (edited 04-15-2000).]

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DeAnna

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posted 01-24-1999 05:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for DeAnna   Click Here to Email DeAnna     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Shalom Lou,

I am not a christian, I believe with all my heart that when I recieved Yahshua the messiah, according to the O.T. , the way I try to show him to other people, that he just had to gotten in me in order for me to see these things, therefore makeing me an Israelite, by being one with him, I was one of those fowl of the air that was adopted.
Do you believe in the N.T.? the reason I ask is I can show him to you without it. I did not mean to cast any stones, I only wanted to point out that people may be more willing to consider your knowledge if you don't offend them right off the bat! haha... maybe later you can.. hahha
Would you please read my post Pascal Lamb. It doesn't have any of Pauls writings in it, I promise.

What does Shavua tov! mean? The only one I know is Shalom, I love that word!

Your friend in Yahshua,
DeAnna

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John

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posted 01-24-1999 06:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for John   Click Here to Email John     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote

Shalom Lou:

Post more of your scholarly commentary for those of use who want to be your Talmiyd, in discipleship of YAH, and don't let a Pauline, antinomian, AntiYahadout the likes of Tapeinoo with his argumentative said nothing intellectual masturbation in any way intimidate you. I am definitely under-whelmed by his endless hateful pontification and endless repeating the same degrading tactics of splitting hairs without any material substance.

Shalom
John

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uriah7

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posted 01-24-1999 06:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for uriah7   Click Here to Email uriah7     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
By the law, and the testimony,
If they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them"
Isaiah 8:20

If what is being said does not line up with Torah, then discount the lawless and what they say. Rav Shaul included. And from what I have seen, he has not contradicted Torah.

Just show me where he has contradicted Torah, uriah7@yahoo.com

[This message has been edited by uriah7 (edited 01-24-99).]

[This message has been edited by uriah7 (edited 01-24-99).]

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tapeinoo

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posted 01-24-1999 11:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tapeinoo   Click Here to Email tapeinoo     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Dear Lou and other attackers of Paul and the NT:

It is actually to your credit that you attack Paul and the NT. You are showing that you are some of the few people here that understand what Paul and the NT is saying. I know it doesn't line up with your beliefs so at least you have the sense to attack it rather then trying to make it fit like I see others doing.

When I speak to learned people about the Judaizers coming back into existence they can hardly believe it. They are wondering why the book of Galatians wouldn't prevent this from happening, as it almost single handedly put them out of business in the first place.

well, sometimes presuppositions can be a domineering force, but at least you are showing that you know your own case. That explains your hostile feelings toward Paul and the NT.

Sincerely,

Tapeinoo

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John

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posted 01-25-1999 03:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for John   Click Here to Email John     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote

To: Tapeinoo

When I see your sort of christianity, I thank YAH that I am not a christian. There you are once more, over and again you have turn what sould be a nice scholarly pursuit into your private hell with your hatefull slashes. "ATTACKERS" I Don't see any attackers except for your demons. Yes, your're the egocentric who is realy preventing the objective quest of those who want an objective search for understanding. It those not matter if you are a Karaim, Sola scriptura Karaite, Halakhic Yahudi or a GOYot Gentile, your not the solution, your're the problem, and its your demonic hate, not your theology.

Go in peace
John

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tapeinoo

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posted 01-25-1999 01:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tapeinoo   Click Here to Email tapeinoo     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
There you go again John, if I had a nickel for every time you seem to be twice as guilty of accusing me of what you yourself are guilty of, yet on a more extreme level.

Look at the adjectives your using when you describe me, now tell me what is the worse thing I have said to you. I submit to you that your hostility may be caused from having to hear the truth!

Tapeinoo

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tapeinoo

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posted 01-25-1999 01:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tapeinoo   Click Here to Email tapeinoo     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
duplicate

[This message has been edited by tapeinoo (edited 01-25-99).]

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DeAnna

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posted 01-25-1999 07:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DeAnna   Click Here to Email DeAnna     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Shalom everybody, & I mean Shalom! haha

To who it may concern,

The word 'Christian" was given to all of those by the Greeks & Roman Catholics, that believe that the "New Testament" is true. It is not a particular faith as so many think.

I am a christian in respect that I believe the testimonies of the N.T. But do not call my self a christian, because it does not show forth my faith In the name Yahshua.

I so wish we would talk "scripture" again...

DeAnna

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tapeinoo

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posted 01-25-1999 07:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tapeinoo   Click Here to Email tapeinoo     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Dear John:

I wonder if you can see how you are coming across? You accuse me of being hateful, having hateful attacks, et. Yet you use words like "demonic hate." Why? Because I disagree with you and make points to that? So you say I have demonic hate? Who is the real accuser here? What is the worse thing that I have said to you? Does it come close to the "demonic hate" you are accusing me of having? This reminds me of the words of my favorite Apostle:

Romans 2:1; Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that Judgest: For wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

2:3; And thinkest thou this O man that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

Tapeinoo

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