...the soul that sinneth, it shall die.


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Posted by Mike_md on May 29, 1998 at 17:18:04:

In Reply to: TORMENT IS FOREVER AND EVER posted by Mike Peralta on May 29, 1998 at 08:53:34:

I would welcome anyone to jump into this discussion at any point they would like, I've no desire for this to be ONLY the Mike and Mike show. Does Mike agree? I am here to learn after all and test the doctrines that I put forth.

Revelation 14:9-11
9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

Mike peralta writes: In addition, in the verse "THERE IS NO REST DAY OR NIGHT FOR THOSE WHO WORSHIP THE BEAST AND HIS IMAGE" (Rev 14:11) Your explanation makes no sense at all. ONLY THOSE WHO EXIST CAN FEEL THE EFFECTS OF EXHAUSTION OR OF NO REST. To ascribe that the NON-EXISTENT can be exhausted and have no rest is STUPID. And I don't think God puts stupid verses in His WORD. (Please don't take this as an insult -- but I could find no better word than stupid to describe thinking in such terms.)

My response:

This passage does not even refer to the ultimate lake of fire judgement so OF COURSE THEY STILL EXIST! Sharpen up! Please read it carefully, it says THE SMOKE of their torment rises forever and ever. It does not say they are tormented forever. The smoke from a campfire rises forever and ever, a radio signal appears to travel forever and ever - both of these things continue LONG after the single event that caused them.

THERE IS NO REST DAY OR NIGHT - if you are only able to see this as simple physical rest then you are indeed missing the deeper spiritual message here. One can only REST or SABBATH in Yeshua. No rest day or night until when? Until judgement day whne they are "appollumied". Rest: Matthew 11:28-29 "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls." see also Hebrews chapters 3 and 4.


Revelation 20:10,15
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had
been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Mike peralta writes: THESE VERSES ARE NOT SYMBOLIC ! If they were symbolic, and there were no other verses to contradict your interpretation then you might have a case.

My reply: As I've admitted, this verse alone seems to say that torment is forever, I have addressed this verse previously, but as I have said it cannot stand alone and if it is the only one you read you will not get the big picture, all the other scriptures that speak of the fate of the wicked say they will be destroyed. It is obvious you only want to believe this one verse while ignoring the majority. You have not addressed any of the points I have made with the many other verses, you only hold onto this one verse and keep repeating it and repeating it and repeating it while ignoring the rest. Quit ignoring the other scriptures that make the case.

Try addressing the NEW heavens and new earth issue - no more crying, pain, sorrow or even "seas". How do you get around that? If you (or anyone out there) will address anything more please let it be Revelation 21.

Try this scripture I noticed on your own "personal testimonies of hell by false prophets" paper: If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. (Hebrews 10:26-27)

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. - can you disregard this verse too?

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna). - this is very clear.

The whole of Psalm 37 is worth looking into regarding this subject, I have previously drawn out the acrostic within it but why not read this one verse as well:

Psalm 37:38 All sinners will be destroyed; the future of the wicked will be cut off.

YHVH is JUST and FAIR, we have so many examples of justice given in the old testament, so many commands from YHVH on how to handle trangressors and none of them align with your concept of torment or everlasting life for the wicked. You sir are the one making YHVH out to be Molech and you sir have magically given everlasting life to the wicked CONTRARY to what John 3:16 and many other verses say. Ezekiel 18:1-4 The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying... ...Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.


peace,

Mike
mike_md@hotmail.com


Jeremiah 32:33-35 "And they have turned their back to Me, and not their face; though I taught them, teaching again and again, they would not listen and receive instruction. "But they put their detestable things in the house which is called by My name, to defile it. "And they built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of the son of Hinnom to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination.



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