Re: Sabbath Resurrection (continued)


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Posted by D'vorah on March 01, 1998 at 22:07:41:

In Reply to: Re: Sabbath Resurrection (continued) posted by Daniel on March 01, 1998 at 17:56:50:


:You last post was abusive, rhetorical, and to a large extent misrepresents my views


Shalom Daniel,

You need to understand not everyone is going to agree with you. If my disagreeing with you made you feel this way then I am sorry..but I won't agree with you when I feel you are misrepresenting the Dvar Elohim and you will just have to accept that and not get so defensive.

:Back to the substance of D'vorah's post. Yeshua rose from the dead on the first of the Sabbaths.


Okay you lost me. If Yahushua rose on the "first of the Sabbths"...which is this? Hag HaMatzah(ULB) would had been the first Sabbath in that week correct? You have really confused me now.

:Was this an act of creation on the Sabbath? Does Yahweh keep his own Sabbath Law? The Rabbis debated this much, and did not arrive at a definitive conclusion. It is possible for Yahweh to raise Yeshua on the sabbath even if it was an act of creation. For there is no scripture that forbids this. It only forbids man from creating.


Why does He forbid man from working/creating...because Shemot/Ex. YHWH Himself has hallowed it and made it holy and even He won't create on it. This is what Scriptures says, not man.

:The resurrection was a restoration of Yeshua to his glorified state.


Then how could He truly be called firstfruits? It is clear in the Scriputres that He is called firstfruits because He received the glorified body that we are going to receive..New Body.

:The comments about the paralytic make my point for me. There is no scripture that says that Yeshua cannot ride a donkey in the Triumphal entry on the Sabbath.


Shemot 20:10...animals were to do no manner of work..didn't mean customary work as is stated on the festivals, it meant NO manner of work [as is stated for Shabbat and Yom Kippur only]...Yahushua would not had done this and protrayed the mitzvot of Elohim in such a way.

:The burden is not commercial. It is human. Cannot parents carry their children on Sabbath.


Of course that was/is not considered a burden....riding a donkey on the Sabbath would be..and not necessary since they didn't travel a great distance on the Shabbat.

:The trip to Emmaus took place on the Sabbath, because the Sabbath was the third day, and Yeshua rose before dawn.


Emmaus was out of Yerushalayim....wouldn't have happened on the Sabbath sorry, just like Yahushua would not had come traveling in to Yerushalayim on the Sabbath.

:The Sabbath limit is well known among Christians. Not so well known are the rabbinic methods for getting around this tradition. It is still tradition though. The two talmiydiym receieved a Sabbath sermon along the way also.


Something just don't quiet sound right about that one??? I endorse tradition..but only Scriptural tradition...not man's. Since I have Scripture to say "A Sabbath Days Journey" was so then I will believe Scripture and not man. Yahushua and the Talmidim can be seen continually getting to a place/town BEFORE the Shabbat and not leaving till after the Shabbat. The Torah observant rabbis do not promote any sort of journey on the Sabbath....the conservative will drive to the shul/synogogue if it is not in walking distance from their home. The Reform will do basically anything...so maybe that is the group you speak of.

:If anyone does not like the suggestion that tithes were given on the Sabbath, then Luke 18:12 can still translate, "I fast twice from the Sabbath," which would make it an exception to the counting days to the Sabbath.


It may translate as such if one is trying to prove a doctrine, but I can't find it would say "from." Also..I thought you said the word "sabbaton" meant "Sabbath(s)"??? Isn't this the logic you are using in Matt. 28:1? So if you are correct then why wouldn't this say "I fast twice from the Sabbaths"???

:I did not say, however, what form such a tithe would be given. It would have to be a converted monetary tithe put in a money box for monetary tithes. Logic 101, however, dictates that even if we let "sabbatou" mean "week" here, it does not prove it must mean that elsewhere.


But where you are getting sabbaton means SABBATHS is what is confusing me:

4521 sabbaton {sab'-bat-on}
of Hebrew origin 07676; TDNT - 7:1,989; n n
AV - sabbath day 37, sabbath 22, week 9; 68
1) the seventh day of each week which was a sacred festival on
which the Israelites were required to abstain from all work
1a) the institution of the sabbath, the law for keeping holy
every seventh day of the week
1b) a single sabbath, sabbath day
2) seven days, a week

So would you say 1 Corin. 16:2 is saying "first of or from the Sabbaths" then? I say it says exactly what it is saying on the "first day of the week."


:Yeshua died on the day before the Passover Sabbath, and rose on the weekly Sabbath. The women bought and prepared the spices on on the sixth day of the week:

: YLT (with name restorations) Mark 16:1 And the sabbath having past, Miryam of Migdol, and Miryam of Ya'aqov, and Shlomit, bought spices, that having come, they may anoint him, 2 and early
: in the morning of the first of the sabbaths, they come unto
: the sepulchre, at the rising of the sun."


This makes no sense...how do you translate sabbaton as "the sabbath"[singular] in one place in this verse but then translate sabbaton as "sabbaths" [plural] in the second place???

: Therefore, the Passover Sabbath passed, and then they bought the spices, and then on the first of the sabbaths they went to the tomb.


This is totally confusing. Hag HaMatzah(ULB) is the first Sabbath in that week..no? So how could the second Sabbath be called the first Sabbath?

What translation are you using...I don't know what YLT is? I want to know because I for sure don't want that one! ugh...reminds me of the "Living Bible" which worked overtime to "explain" what the Scriptures meant..oy =)

:So they rested on the feast Sabbath, but as the Misnah permited, they performed the last rights on the third day which was the Sabbath: I quote:


What were you quoting a teaching perhaps..you insinuate you are quoting Mishnah but you did no...it did.


: §155 What Luke is saying, is that the women rested according to the strict letter of the Law on the Passover Sabbath, but they had a reason to violate the weekly Sabbath. It was the custom to go to a grave on the third day to pay last respects before it was permanently sealed up.§162


This is backwards the resting would had been done according to the strictest of the Torah for Shabbat. Look up the Scriptures and it tells you that Shabbat and Yom Kippur are the ones that "no manner" of work can be done. And the custom you speak of being their at the tomb the third day before it is sealed is false too...they didn't permently seal the tombs..they would go to the tombs often and burn incense and anoint the body with spices till the body had decayed and then they would take the bones and put them in a ossary...this is where the term being "gathered to the fathers" came from...all the bones of the relatives were gathered together in ossaries..

The Mishnah even allows for this procedure to be done on the Sabbath day:
: They may make ready [of the Sabbath] all that is needful for the dead, and anoint it and wash it, provided that they do not move any member of it. They may draw the mattress away from beneath it and let it lie on sand that it may be the longer preserved; they may bind up the chin, not in order to raise it, but that it may not sink lower. So, too if a rafter is broken they may support it with a bench or with the side pieces of a bed that the break may grow no greater, but not in order to prop it up. They may not close a corpse's eyes on the Sabbath; nor may they do so on a weekday at the moment when the soul is departing; and he that closes the eyes [of the dying man] at the moment when the soul is departing, such a one is a shedder of blood" (Shabbath 23.5).


This is only if one dies on the Sabbath..oy vey again....the "They may not close a corpse's eyes on the Sabbath [departing of soul]" should give you some indication here that it is speaking of one that died on the Sabbath. Yahushua didn't die on the Sabbath there was no need to go and anoint Him and burn incense till after the weekly Shabbat had passed.

: §156 From this we can see that the women who went to anoint the body on the Sabbath were allowed to do what they did according to the Jewish interpretation of the Law. Furthermore, to check on the body on the third day was almost considered a legal requirement. For death did not legally occur until the third day among the Jews. For this reason, the traditional Friday-Sunday chronology does not satisfy the Jewish legal definition for death.§163


Nope but the Thurs/Sun sure does satisfy the Jewish legal definition for death. The checking on the third day was to see if the nefesh/soul had returned..this was a custom because if it had not returned within three days they were considered legally dead.

: §157 We know from Mark 16:1-2 that the spices were bought and prepared on Friday:


No we don't...Mark 16:1-2 does not say that, man's teaching does.


: §159 In the traditional view, the women must prepare their spices in the dark in order to have them ready from Sunday morning.§165 This is the only way for it to satisfy Mark 16:1.


Very common...in Yisrael at the Temple times especially [and even today] people started their day way before daylight...this article is using Greek culture to understand Hebrew culture...can't be done...the women could have very easily bought spices very early in the morning...but I say these women which includes Miryam of Magdala is a different set of women than the ones spoken of in Luke 23:55-56, because they had already prepared theirs and didn't need to buy more. I don't believe Miryam the mother of Yahushua would had bought spices and took the to prepare before the High Sabbath...because her Son had just died and she would be sitting shiva [Jewish custom of mourning], whereas the women in Luke were not immediate family as it indicates.


:Dead men are not required to keep feasts. Neither does the Scripture say that Yeshua rose on the firstfruits day. It only says that he was the firstfruits, which means the best or foremost part. "So you are saying that we're given the command to count [Lev. 23:15-16] for nothing?" Putting words into my mouth again! The question mark does not belong there. This is simply an abusive statement.


I see the question mark is there and you still missed that it was a question. Yahushua keeps all moe'dim whether you agree or not. I see that He does according to Scripture and I could care less what man teaches. So do you think it might be possible you have miss the intent of Bikkurim? {btw..that is a question too}.

:"How do you get seven Sabbath AND 50 days from Aviv 16?" Easy:

: And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete: 16 while from the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye continue numbering fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto Yahweh.


Huh? Your translation of vs. 16 makes it appear you count from morrow after the seven sabbaths???? Verse 15 is okay but vs 16 is the pits.

: "From Aviv 17 counting 47 days of journeying brings us to Sivan 3, adding the two days they were to purify themselves plus the third day they were to be ready on brings us to Sivan 6."
This requires both Aviv and Ziv to have 30 days, and the proper date would be Sivan 5 for the 50th day.


Not so because all the days that of the Qumran find was 30 each month..with a intercalary day at the end of every three months. Guess which month would had the day added? =)

:However, no matter how you do it, your Sivan 6 cannot be a "Sunday" because they would be washing their clothes on Sabbath.


Scripture doesn't say they washed their clothes on both days.

:You try to say that Iyar (Ziv) had 30 days by citing Qumran. This is total bunk. The Jubilee's/Essene calendar had nothing in common with the Torah calendar. It's months were 30,30,31, 30,30,31, 30,30,31, 30,30,31 days for a total of 364 days. They always had feasts on the 4th day of the week. If you use them as a proof that Iyar had 30 days, then you would be obligated to follow their other errors!


I think it is pretty obvious that nobody has all the truth, so just because you say they did this or that does not mean they were using the wrong calendar. I have no idea if what you are saying about them is true or not...have not studied them. And I am not obligated to follow any person, errors or not, so your wrong about that one too.

:As for rendering Yahweh's command null and void, you are the one doing that, because Yeshua condemned the Saduccees for not knowning the word of Yahweh, and he endorsed the Pharisee's, and told the people to listen to them because it was they who sat in the seat of Moshe (Matthew 23:1-3). As for the dating of Shavuot, the Pharisees controlled the Temple calendar. The Sadducees had no say whatsoever. This is absolutely clear from the historical sources.


So I guess the Sadducees were just hanging around for the fun of it and acting big? =) Seems the B'rit Chadasha makes them appear to have some authority....

: Now on the numbering of the days of the week, Yom Rishon is one method of designating the first day. However, Yom Echad is what Yahweh calls the first day.


Because YHWH is counting the days of creation and the first day He is telling us that evening and morning makes ONE/ECHAD day. You will find extensively throughout the Hebrew Tanakh "rishon" is the proper word to use for the beginning of a period...like Rosh HaShanah for example..it is called "Head of the Year" because it is the New Year of the Biblical Cival calendar. And you won't find 'echad' in the Hebrew/English tanakh being translated as 'first' in Bereishit/Gen...it is translated as "one day."

:Where do you get "Yom Roshon haShabbat" from? That is incorrect! The proper use is "ekhad be-shabbath" (William Mead Jones, D.D. "A Chart of the Week").Your Hebrew would translate, "Day first of the Sabbath,"


Sorry you are wrong...Yom haShabbat would translate "First Day of the Shabbat"....Yom haShabbat...is "the Sabbath day", depends on words within the sentence. You would not use "echad" to talk about the first day of the week as the Tanakh proves...look it up.

: "Why didn't you use the concept of the 'Sabbaths'?? Matthew 28:1, "On the Later of the Sabbaths, at the dawning on the first of the Sabbaths." See, I used the plural. It makes perfect sense. Hebrew: B'akharon hasabbatot ... b'echad hasabbatot.


You would not use Echad in this sense...ask a Hebrew scholar.

: The texts very simply say that the Resurrection was on the First of the Sabbaths. I close with this:

: J.W. Bright in The Gospel of Saint John in West-Saxon, London: D.C. Heath & Co, 1904, accuses the ca. 1050 A.D. MSS, which he was translating, of rendering too literally:
: The Graecism una sabbatorum (which fails to convey the required meaning, "the first day of the week") is rendered too literally; so too in Wiclif: "Therefor whanne it was eue in that dai, oon of the sabtis," (pg. 178).

: The literal truth is only hard for those with no eyes to see, and no ears to hear the word of Yahweh.

: Daniel


I get weary with your constant quoting of man's teachings...not much quoting from the Dvar YHWH I noticed...that is the WORD I hear and listen to..not man's.

Haya nayim me'od,

D'vorah




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