Forum Members:
Perhaps you might like to see somewhat different views(with which I
emphatically disagree) of belief in Messiah Yeshua-from a group who has
made up their own "New Testament". There are at least three different such
groups with similar teachings calling themselves Nazarene or Nazarite one
thing or another. All seem to have elaborate rhetoric but with very little
spirit(as the recent astute quote of Zech-"not by power or might but by My
spirit").
Here are some extracts from Rabbi Joseph Ben Haggai whom D'vorah has
possibly studied and quoted recently. The Beyt Din he mentions is a group
of men (appointed or elected) who act as a court of sorts deciding matters
within the body of believers.The First Fruits of Zion he mentions in the
end is a group of Messianic believers and the NTCF is a trust fund for
helping support these believers in Messiah Yeshua. This Rabbi and I are not
new to each other having interacted on another forum.
This Rabbi Joseph believes the tribulations were fulfilled in the holocaust
and God will be with the Jews to bring them full victory from now on. He
does not claim to be a prophet(as most of the more clever ones do not) but
has apparently developed a complex prophetic scenario based in the use of
replacement theology to assign future events to the past probably relying
on Isaac Newton to a great degree. About the only thing with which I agree
with Newton in his Daniel and Revelation book is that the "seven weeks(49
years)" must fall between the last coming and the next coming.
Eliyahu
=======================================================
You may recall my interpretation of the wine/wineskins parable where the
old and new speak of the old and new covenants, the wine("cup" of Luke) is
the blood, and the wineskins are the law. Old cloth=old covenant, new
cloth=new covenant.
Here is my email to him and his reply and interpretation:
From: Bobby Rich Shalom Answer: Very simple Old Wine - The teachings of the Saducees and the School of Old cloth Ezrah & Nehemiah's Judaism Shalom UBrechot, Haham Dr. Yosef ben Haggi A. One could suggest that events that took place at Migdal Bavel represent 1. Use this suggestion to explain a possible meaning of language in the B. Note that in the entire Migdal Bavel narrative, Hashem's name is C. The famous messianic prophecy of Yeshayahu creates an intriguing Just as in the story of Migdal Bavel, here we find the UNITY of MIGDAL BAVEL BET HA'MIKDASH 1. What implications has this idea to the promise that G-d made with ============================================================================ ====== IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT It is with great sadness and heaviness of heart that I forced to make the First Fruits of Zion May Ha-Shem Most Blessed be He, Who knows that we have never engaged in any ============================================================================ =======
To: Joseph ben Haggai
Date: Saturday, 8 November 1997 6:18
Subject: First parable
Dear Rabbi Joseph:
What is your opinion on the meanings of the first parable concerning the
old and new cloths and old and new wine & wineskins? What does the wine
represent and the wineskins(or bottles) represent?
Bobby
Shalom Your Excellency Adon Robert Rich!
Old Wine skins - 2nd Temple Judaism controlled by the
apostate Saducaic Priesthood
New Wine skins - Rabbinic Judaism as promulgated in Jamnia
Shamai
New Wine - The teachings of of the Rabbis from Jamnia
onwards
New cloth apostate Judaism at the times of Messiah as
preached by the Saducees
========================================================
Haham Dr. Yosef ben Haggi
Rosh Bet Din
I.R.N.B.D.
FOR FURTHER IYUN
the natural course of the history of nations. People with a common goal
join together for a common purpose, and build a society. Sooner or later,
splinter groups with other ideals and goals form, often challenging the
authority of first group, or possibly breaking off and starting their own
nation. When people disagree on a common goals, they often are not able to
communicate with each other, even if they do speak the same language. [The
knesset (Israeli Parliament) is classic example (|: )) ]One could suggest
that when G-d decides to stop this building project, he does so by breaking
the people's unity, i.e. causing them to fight over their goals. Their
inability to communicate with each other, to understand each other's
language, stemmed from a lack a common goal in their project.
Migdal Bavel narrative.
2. See Ibn Ezra (11:1 - "dvarim achadim") and if you have time. Relate to
the above...
exclusively shem havaya.
1. Relate this to shiur on Parshat Breshit.
parallel to Migdal Bavel:
"In the days to come, the MOUNTAIN of BET HA'SHEM (the Temple Mount)
will stand high above
the mountains... and ALL THE NATION shall gaze on it with joy. Then
MANY PEOPLES shall go
and say: Come let us go up to the House of G-d, that He may
instruct us in His ways (Halakhot)
and that we may walk (Halakh) in His paths - for TORAH shall come
forth out of Tzion, and the
word of G-d from Yerushalayim... "(2:1-4)
all nations, however in striking
contrast. Now they gather to a MOUNTAIN top (man looking up),
instead of a VALLEY (man
looking down), to the CITY of Yerushalayim, and to its TOWER - the
Bet HaMikdash. Now,
mankind is united for a common goal, to listen to the word of G-d,
as taught by His people from an
entirely Jewish philosophy and not an idolatrous one!
In contrast to Migdal Bavel, the Mikdash becomes the symbol of a
theocentric society, the ultimate
goal of all mankind. The following table reviews this contrasting
parallel:
------------ --------------
Unity for man Unity for God
Valley Mountain
a city the city of Yerushalayim
a tower the Temple
Man's reputation G-d's reputation ("shem Hashem")
Avraham "in you shall the Gentiles be Grafted in" (Ber. 12:3) as explained
in the Middrash of this passage by Haham Shaul in Romans Chapter 11 and in
Ephesians 2:11-22 for the Nazrean Jew first and secondly for the Nazarean
Noachite?
following annoucement concerning individual whom I have never had a chace
to meet nor do they know about me. The leadership of two Messianic
organization with its H.Q.'s in Erets Yisrael, who falsely call themselves
"Torah Observant" as an inducement to facilitate apostasy of fellow Jews
away from their Jewish faith and true obedience to Torah Shebealpeh and
Shebiktav are circulating a false rumour arround that this Bet Din is in
the process of folding and that my comment on the Parashah relating to the
death of Mosheh Rabbenu in which I stated that Hahamim (and we have a
number of them receiving this Parashah) are the embodyment of Mashiach, and
thus worthy of double honor, was a pronouncement that I had claimed to be
the Messiah. Thus, these purveyors of Lashon Hara misinterpreting what I
said, and twisting my words with evil intent without any cause have gone
wherever possible to malign and defame this Bet Din, its members and
myself. Since these hypocrital am-ha'aretz call themselves Torah observant
and have gone arround in the Holy Name of G-d and His Mashiach spreading
these tall tales to unsettle those whose interest is nothing more and
nothing else than Torah and
G-d's Just Government on earth, it seemed good unto the voting members of
this Royal Bet Din and unto the Spirit of G-d's Holiness to warn all
members, and those under the jurisdiction of this Bet Din, as well as
friends of this Bet Din not to support in any way shape or manner the
following ministries and their leadership:
and
Nehemiah Trust Fund
act of provocation to any one, but have remained completely to ourselves
never having criticised these people in any shape form or manner, in turn
and without any provocation whatsoever have taken upon themselves without
any cause (at least known to us) to go behind our backs spreading Lashon
Hara and all manner of evil and false rumours about us seeking our
destruction and ruin. May He Who is the author of all Justice, have mercy
on them, and may He bring upon them and their minsitries that which they
intended to do unto this Holy Bet Din! In the love and loyalty of His
Majesty Yeshuah Ha-Mashiach, Amen ve Amen!
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