Re: To D'vorah


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Posted by Br. Clif on November 07, 1997 at 20:00:10:

In Reply to: Re: To D'vorah posted by D'vorah on November 06, 1997 at 12:13:42:

D'vorah, Dear Sister...,

I wish to make some comments regarding your words, below...

: To me Joseph is a brother in Mashiach...if he is Torah observant and loves Elohim and is waiting for Mashiach to come....now whether he will accept at some point YHWSHUA as HaMashiach

You mean if he is expecting someone ELSE as Mashiach then he is still my brother IN Mashiach? Sounds like he is OUTSIDE Mashiach, to me.

> is totally up to whether YHWH will remove the blindness from his eyes....it is not up to me.

: It says plainly in Romans that a Yehudite that walks with Elohim, that does not believe in YHWSHUA as of yet is still beloved...

But it DOES NOT say that he is a brother in Mashiach. Your love for [some of] Yisrael is admirable, D'vorah, but don't let your love for [some of] Yisrael outweigh the truth. This is the Messianic extreme which labels any truth spoken against Judaism as "anti-semitism." I get so tired of false-doctrine spouting Jews hiding behind this blind. If there were to be another Holocaust, it is my intention in my heart to stand in the gap for them, so let me not now be labeled "anti-Semitic", but let's not love them at the expense of the truth.

>so please tell me why I must reject him if Avinu/our Father has not as of yet?

No one is telling you to reject him, but he is not a brother IN Mashiach UNTIL he is a brother IN Mashiach. He must know that he is not one of us until he has become one of us. The Ruach must do its work, then Joseph must do his work, THEN we must do ours. If you reject him, who will deliver the word to him? So, we are not saying to reject him, we are simply saying that he does not qualify, according to the word, as a member of the Messianic Community.

: ~Concerning the basar/good news they are enemies for your sake,

"They are ENEMIES for your sake..." Don't ignore the whole meaning of the passage.

>but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

...or patriarchs. Yes, because of their rich heritage, they are loved by anyone who has an appreciation for the great blessings handed down through the trust/faith of the patriarchs, but that still doesn't say they are brothers in Mashiach. You are often on the mark about many things, D'vorah, but you're way off-base this time, my Sister.

> For the gifts and the calling of Elohim are irrevocable.

But Thank YHWH that rejection of the Mashiach is not!
: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: :
: : Concerning Luke 8:21, where Yahshua says, My mother and brothers are those who are hearing the Word of Elohim and doing it...
: :
: : We need to go to the book of Mark for a more thorough explanation...
: :
: : Mark 3:21 - And when his relatives heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is out of his mind...
: :
: : Now, further in this very same chapter we see...
: :
: : Mark 3:31 - There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him.
: : 32 - And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.
: : 33 - And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?
: : 34 - And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
: : 35 - For whosoever shall do the will of YAHWEH, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: So what you are saying is that you don't believe that Joseph is doing the will of Elohim? How do you know this? If it is because he is not a believer in YHWSHUA that you say you know then how do you know he has not come to this forum in his search by the leading of the Ruach and Will of YHWH to come to YHWSHUA as HaMashiach???

: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: : Apparently, even Yahshua's brothers had not yet accepted him...
: :
: : John 7:5 - For neither did his brothers believe in him...
: :
: : I am sure that his brothers were awaiting for Mashiach to come, as do many Jews today who do not accept Yahshua.
: :
: : His brothers, at least Yaacob and Yehudah did believe later.

But this didn't make them spiritual brothers of any Messianic believers UNTIL they, too, became believers...

: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: Okay this is my point....do you think YHWSHUA and the talmidim cast them off because they were not believers at first?

Read the passage, again. They were standing OUTSIDE the circle of taught ones/talmidim. Anyone who desired to could listen to Y[aHU]shua's preaching when it occured in public places, but evidently these two fleshly brothers did not believe AT THAT TIME, which explains why they were standing "without"/OUTSIDE.

: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: : D'vorah, you asked the question...."could Joseph's coming to this forum be a test? To see if the words of love used here is truly love for another or just words?" ........
: :
: : ...That's a possibility, but could this be another possibility...
: :
: : That he is sowing doubt into the hearts of YAHWEH's people...
: :
: : YAHWEH knows, and I am praying that Joseph will see the Light...
: :
: : Love in Yahshua,
: :
: : YermeYah

: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: This really just made me cry...because I cannot believe you said this! How could a believer in YHWSHUA have doubt sown in their hearts concerning Him? Especially when you know the person that you are reading the post of is a non-believer???

: Do you really believe that that is how HaSatan works? I have seen Scripture say that HaSatan appears as a angel of light....through someone that is teaching what seems good and right but is a twisting of the Devar/Word....this is how doubt is sown in a believer....a non-believer cannot do this for how do they apprear as a angel of light or a wolf in sheep clothing????

And Sister, you don't believe that goyim can come saying, "Come, learn of my elohim"? Better go back and read the Torah some more, my Sis.

: ~But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things which they boast.

: For such are false sh'liachim/apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into sh'liachim of Mashiach.

: And no wonder! For HaSatan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.

: Therefore, it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works. {2Corin. 12-15}
: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: :
: : It is not that anyone here wants to reject or judge Joseph, in fact, there would be much rejoicing if he accepted the true Mashiach, but until that time, he is an unbeliever...

Emet!

: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: Funny I seem to remember one that has judged Joseph already......

: ** I see that you do not DESIRE to know truth. You simply want to teach us "animals" something. **

: And what did Joseph say back:

: **You clearly do not know me. I do have a desire to know the truth, but I also have a mind. I do not feel that G-d would want me to close my eyes and believe blindly. You [and Martin Luther] seem to be filled with a lot of anger. I was under the impression that Jesus wanted people to love and bless even their enemy. And, I am certainly not your enemy. Please do not speak toward me like that instead of answering my questions. I tried to answer your questions, respectfully.**
: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

: ~Do not boast against the branches. But if you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root suppors you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in. {Romans 11:18}
: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

: : Concerning the witness of Yahchanan the immerser...
: :
: : Matthew 3:7 - But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
: : 8 - Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance:
: : 9 - And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that YAHWEH is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham

: *********************************
: ~Well said, because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if Elohim did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

: Therefore consider the goodness and severity of Elohim: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

: AND THEY ALSO, IF THEY DO NOT CONTINUE IN UNBELIEF, WILL BE GRAFTED IN, FOR ELOHIM IS ABLE TO GRAFT THEM IN AGAIN. {Romans 11:20-23}

: B'shalom,

: D'vorah

--Shalom Aleichem,
Br. Clif



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