In Reply to: To: BrCliff & Toni..Re: Shaul's Apostleship posted by D'vorah on October 14, 1997 at 13:41:53:
Shalom Sis. D'vorah,
: Ever since I have seen these posts suggesting that Sha'ul was an apostate or such I have not been able to get it out of my mind...even waking me at night to just lay there for hours thinking about it...ack...thanks guys!
Don't thank me; I didn't put the evidence against him in the scriptures...
:But anyway, here is what came to mind yesterday concerning this...
: I got to thinking...okay what does the word 'apostle' mean? #652 'apostolos'..the Greek word meaning an 'ambassador', 'messenger' or 'he that is sent.'
"sent out one", yes, I agree.
: The Hebrew equivalent would be 'Sh'liach'...meaning 'sent one.'
: Okay here is what came to mind about this...when did the talmidim/disciples become 'apostles/sh'liach?
: *These twelve YHWSHUA SENT OUT and COMMANDED THEM saying: "Do not go into the way of the Goyim/Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Yisrael. And as you go, preach, saying, 'The Malkut Shamayim/Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." {vs. 5-7}
: So it is at this point that the talmidim/disciples became sh'liachim/apostles.
: So wouldn't you say that it is the 'Sending out' of one with a mission from Elohim that makes one a sh'liach/apostle?
Absolutely, but the question is, was Shaul/Sheol a sent out one of YaHUshua or a sent out one of the ways of sheol?
: Now what about Yochanan the Immerser...doesn't he say that he was 'sent to' prepare the way of HaMashiach? {Yochanan 1:23, 1:6} So even though he isn't considered technically to be one of the original twelve, he still could be called an 'sh'liach/apostle' of YHWSHUA...right?
No, he was not a disciple of YaHUshua. He was a prophet of YHWH. He was sent out by YHWH, not YaHUshua. "He that is least in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than YaHUchanan the Immerser." This is because disciples of YaHUshua have received a covenant for a kingdom, just as He has received a covenant for a kingdom. YaHUchanan the Immerser is not under this covenant for a kingdom. He, as part of Yisrael the nation shall be "head of the nations," which I understand to mean that he will be a citizen of the foremost nation on earth during the millenial reign and beyond. Someone correct me if there is evidence against this, please.
: So too, Sha'ul may not technically be called one of the sh'liach, but he too was 'sent' to do a mission..to take the Basar/Gospel to the Goyim. So if he was commisioned from YHWSHUA to do this then I would say he had every right to call himself an 'Apostle.'
"if" being the operative word. The thing is that there is no evidence, other than the doubtful 2 Kefa(a mere 1 witness), that Shaul was recognized as a legitimate sent out one of YaHUshua by the 12 who were most definitely sent out ones of YaHUshua.
See, it is like this. Because I am not one of the Mormon 12 apostles(held to be just as authoritative as the original 12 by Mormons the world over) I have to make a big deal about my credentials, just as Shaul did, to convince people that anything I say about/against Mormonism has any merit. Likewise, Shaul preached in contradiction to the message that the 12 preached. He was not recognized by the 12 in Jerusalem, and that is why he is always having to defend his apostleship, the only witness of it being YaHUshua, Himself.
: Is Yochanan ever acknowledge in the Brit Chadashah of being an Apostle by anyone else?
No, because he was not. He was a prophet of YHWH, certainly, maybe even sent out (though into the wilderness) by YHWH, but not by YaHUshua. Furthermore, by the time the congregation was being established, YaHUchanan was beheaded. Attentions were turned to what was going on at their present time. In the same way, the "powers that be" do not want us digging into the past/foundations of much of what we believe, lest in turning over some rocks, we should uncover Sheol in all its dirtiness.
:I don't know because I haven't checked yet..so I am asking either of you. If it is true that he was never acknowledge as being an Apostle...does this change the 'fact' that he was as an apostle...and could rightly call himself an apostle of YHWSHUA?
Already answered above. The question is vain, but only because an element of the question is vain.
: If you agree then you would have to agree that Sha'ul would also have this same right.
Certainly, I am not against being held to my own standards of judgement; however, he was sent out by YHWH, not YaHUshua, making the whole line of inquiry erroneous at the start.
:If you don't agree then you would have to change the meaning of the word apostle wouldn't you?
It always means "sent out one" to me. I am sure that there are sent out ones of Satan, too.
: Just some thoughts that is rattling around in my head...
Well, it couldn't be rattlesnake, could it?
: May everyone have a wonderfully Sh'khinah filled Sukkot!
Thank you, Sister!
: B'shem YHWSHUA,
: D'vorah
Re-Shalom,
Br. Clif