Re: Prove it to me!!!!!

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: : : Charles Matthias posted the following article in the WWWBoard : : : : : : Dated : September 23, 1997 at 09:13:48 : : : Subject: Re: Prove it to me!!!!! : : ............. : : No this is just an assumption by you of what my intentions are or were. I really wanted to discuss Scripture. Like I have said before ....there is no one here to fellowship with in my area...so all I have is the people on this forum...and I know what I have found in the Scriptures concerning 'proofs' to me of YHWHSHUA not being Elohim...but I wanted to discuss these Scriptures and the ones that Trinitarians hold as proof...not to argue them but to examine them together so that I could see others viewpoints about this......I am not totally sure I am correct in this belief, I can't be considering how deceived I was on some other beliefs, so I want the opportunity to study this with others. : That's not what I read, but if that is truly what you believe and want, good for you. Be willing then to deny everything that you think might be truth. With the exception of things that are taken as accepted between the two parties, you can accept nothing or you will miss the point of the intellectual discussion. : : Yes of course if a Scripture is brought up that is taken out context...I am going to say so..why not? This is not the way to use Scriptures to prove doctrines...or a way to study them...but this does not mean that I am arguing because I tell you or any one else that it is out of context....just speaking the truth....and we all should be seeking the Will of YHWH enough to be able to accept this and admit it when it is pointed out to us. : I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't call it out of context when it obviously is. What I am saying is that some people say that automatically when we only see the one verse, and not really think about whether it has been correctly interpreted in regards ot the surrounding text. I was not saying that you were guilty of it, just making a general observation that many have done so. : However, before you say something is quoted out of context, make sure that it is! :-) : Now that you have claimed to see, don't fall in that ditch! :-) : : I don't consider that I have argued in my posts....I said I DIDN'T WANT TO argue...not that I have...I felt that it was moving in that direction because David did not seem to want to take Scripture and discuss....just opinions. : Now you are arguing with me. : I made an observation. Whether you wanted to argue or not is irrelevant, the fact that you let yourself argue IMHO is a testament that you let things get out of hand. Don't blame it all on David, humble yourself! He who is first shall be last, and he who is last shall be first. : :I want a serious discussion of the 'ify' Scriptures that he and others say support the Trinity doctrine...not just opinion, opinion. You can't take 4 or 5 verse out of context and lay them down and say this is my support for my doctrine..when you have all the other verses that are within context saying this is not support for your doctrine. : I agree with you here. I think that is a bad tactic. This works in any situation. So I take it then that the only source of theology for you then is the scripture? <strong>This is not an insignificant question</strong> : : : Sorry, this is what everybody says, but when somebody comes down and lays the scripture in front of them they claim the person is either quoting out of context or has mistranslated it or is misinterpreting it in someway. Even the most straightforward portions of scripture are ridiculed for this. : : .............. : : Because it is truth...most of Christian doctrines are based on out of context Scripture. Anybody can make the Scriptures say what they want if they pull the verse out of context..and not back it up with the other verse throughout the Scriptures. : Actually, a lot of the doctrine that comes out is based off a reaction against a certain preceived wrong. For example, in Lutheranism it was based off the stress of works that the Catholic church was making at the time so he claimed that it was faith alone, regardless what the book of James says. For Anabaptism it was the infant baptism of the other churches that really sparked their movement. For this website, it is the use of non-Hebraic names by traditional Christian institutions that started this movement. : Does this necessarily mean that these movements are wrong becuase they are reactionary movements and not proactive movements? No, that is silly. : The origin of these ideas is reactive, but they then search through the scriptures and find proof of what they want in the scriptures anyway they can. : : I believe that Christianity is misinterpreting, mistranslating, and using out of context Scripture. I once was considered a 'Christian'....and know this....and I know the deception that comes with this...this is why I left Christianity years ago! I did not grow up 'Jewish'......I went back to my roots about 10 years ago...so I know all to well the doctrines and the ways of interpreting the Scriptures that Christianity follows in support of these doctrines. And I also know that you can not get many to actually sit down and take apart a verse they use for support of their doctrines and examine it....usually it will be said 'well it is a mystery and we are not suppose to understand!' I am willing to say I am wrong if someone would actually discuss these verse with me and show me I am wrong....because I really want to know the truth on this! : Ah yes, the appeal to mystery! All that means is that the theologian either doesn't want to mess with that topic, or doesn't have the mental capacity to handle that topic. : : But I am also going into the discussion with the knowledge that 98% of the Scriptures does not support the Trinity doctrine...and this says something to me...how could it not? : Here's a few more questions. How much of that 98% outright condemns the trinity doctrine? Does the remaining 2% support the doctrine? : :The truths within the Devar/Word of Elohim are found supported THROUGHOUT the whole of the Scriptures...not just in 2 or 3 verses...so right off I know there is something wrong with the Trinity belief.....this should give the same indication to others when they realize this? : Well, since it is clear to me what the letters say, redemption through the crucifixion, I want to know why the gospels say what they say. I want to know how such redemption is possible. : : : When anybody tells me that they just want to discuss the scripture I am afraid I have to shake my head, because we are already convinced what the scripture means, and anything else is just ignored and forgotten because we don't like the implications, or simply reinterpreted. : : .............. : : No true on my part...if you will check out my posts you will see that any and all verse that have been mentioned in support of the Trinity doctrine I have addressed...and was hoping to receive a response back about these same verses....but you can't get Trinitarians to do that they either want to jump all over the place pulling verses out of context or not use Scritpure at all and just their opinions or divert your attention to something else....can't get anywhere doing this! : Look, screaming 'Not me! Not me!' does not get you anywhere with me. I know what you did, and I know what David did. You don't need to excuse yourself for my sake. Don't plead innocent with me, it is fruitless and only makes me think less of you. : Okay, I am not attacking you, I am giving you advice. Just want to clear that up right now, because I seem to be saying some pretty strong words. : Another thing to think about, is it easier to attack the scripture, or to defend it? : : : I really hope that you are speaking the truth. If you are, then you would be willing to talk to him no matter what <strong>he does</strong>. : : ............... : : I said I was not going to reply to his posts any longer because he won't discuss Scripture....if he changes his mind I will. I really don't like talking to somone that seems to be implying that I don't have the intellegence enough to understand as was implied more than once by him.....another Trinitarian tactic....and also 'it is something spiritual and you just must not be spiritual if you are not getting it'.....Sheesh..give me a break! I am so thankful that Avinu/our Father didn't feel this way and gave me His Devar/Word to know and prove His truths! : I do not call anybody stupid. I may call what they say uninformed or call their actions infantile, but never the person. One thing I've noticed though is that everybody claims that they are conducting themselves reasonably in an argument and that the other person is the one doing all the dirty tricks. I am not implying that you are lying, I am saying that you are giving classic responses of 'Not me! Not me! Him! It was him!' that so turn me off because most of the time they are so fake. I know there is not much else that can be said, but this is my biggest difficulty here. : : : Have you talked to an atheist recently? You should see how much proof they require. Miraculous healings don't convince them either. : : ............... : : Well if he doesn't know there is Elohim just by his own existance...what can ya say? Doesn't surprise me that miraculous healings wouldn't convince them then...just as it seems Scriptural proofs doesn't convince others of false doctrines. =) : Yes, I think I can sympathize. : : : That is assuming that everything written in the Bibile is correct, and that nothing else written can describe the All Mighty. The conept of the Trinity has nothing to do with an actual division of the Divine matter, but simply a separation of the job description for our edification and the ease of our understanding. : : Hmmmm....you must be a Trinitarian too...because they love to use philosophy and such when describing it....instead of Scripture. : Now who is the one doing the accusing? You criticize David of implying that you are somehow less spiritual, and now you out and out call me a Trinitarian! You blatantly say that I love philosphy more than scripture! How dare you, you pious, self-righteous..... : I was only giving a brief on what the concept of trinity is, not defending it. I was not even trying to defend it, merely to make it's substance clear. I did not mention my opinion on the subject, and already you are set to condemn me. How thoughtful of you. : :I know that YHWH will tell me everything I need to know in His Devar : How do you know this? What if the Bible is horribly corrupted, just as the muslis (and some people on this forum) say it is? Then you woudl be putting your faith in a writing, not in the true All Mighty. : :and if He is Triune as you and others are saying it will be there. : Not if it's corrupted. : : I know and understand that Elohim has many, many attributes....ways of manifestation you might say.....but I also know {so far} by Scripture that YHWHSHUA is not equal or Elohim Himself with YHWH....that He has been made KING not ELOHIM. I believe Pharoah and Yosef/Joseph's relatationship pictures somewhat YHWH and YHWHSHUA'S ....remember Pharoah gave all authority over Mitzrayim/Egypt to Yosef EXCEPT for his throne. I believe that Scripture supports this idea according to YHWH and Mashiach....Avinu/our Father has given all authority to YHWHSHUA... : : *Then YHWHSHUA came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in shamayim/heaven and on eretz/earth. {Matt. 28:18} : : Hmmm...someone must have been greater in authority to have given Him authority...right? : Now you are arguing that He is not equal with Elohim. Welcome to the wonderful world of Arianism. I don't have my Bible with me, so I am afraid that I cannot continue with you at the moment. I want to back up what I say with scripture on this one. : : Okay....but can you use Scripture......I know we all have opinions but I try to base my walk with YHWH on HIS OPINION from HIS DEVAR/WORD.....this is just something I have to personally do.....so I would appreciate Scriptural based discussions. : Then you shall have one. : May He bless you and keep you in His grace and love, : Charles Matthias

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