In Reply to: Re: Just a few questions and problems. posted by Br. Clif on September 03, 1997 at 16:36:46:
: : As for continuing in error, I must say that all those verses that stressed the importance of His name got me thinking that if the phoenetic understanding is correct, then there is no way in which I can conclude at this time what the proper name is, and see therefore no reason to alter my nomenclature. If I could be wholeheartedly convinced of a particular pronunciation, then I will use it.
: If you were faithful to your beloved Greek text, you would at least have the sense to call Him Yaysoos, but you seem to be nothing more than a promoter of the status quo to me...
: : However, another thing that strikes me is an argument I saw on this discussion group here that I didn't think was quite handled too well. The arguemnt was in connection with the Tetragrammaton: YHWH. The actual meaning of this is 'I am who I am' or 'I will be what I will be' which is not a name at all but more of a designation of being.
: Actually, "hayah asher hayah" is "I AM WHO I AM"(insert favorite translation, here). HE says, "YHWH, THAT is My Name FOREVER." The Yisraelim/Israelites pronounced it, the Cohen HaGadol (High Priest) pronounced it, YaHUshua pronounced it ("I have made your Name known, and I will continue to make it known."), so why don't you?
: :The name Charles does not say anything about me, other than my parents thought the name Charles sounded nice. I am who I am states a very fundamental principle, a status, but not a true name in that respect.
: That it is His True Name is a biblical fundamental. Interesting that you can't see that.
: :Should we then ignore it? Of course not, it is important, but we need to understand it for what it means,
: Yes, and we do. Mainstream Christianity, however, is not going to be educated about the meaning of His Name if they are not even doctrinated concerning what that Name is.
: :not for the particular pallette needed to enunciate it properly.
: All pallettes except possibly a cleft pallette are perfectly designed by YHWH, Himself, to pronounce His Name. He would truly be a merciless Mighty One if He commanded us to call Him by a Name that our created mouths could not pronounce.
: :I digress,
: We should be so lucky.
: :and I know that you feel you have found the proper pronunciation. However, like many things in the Bible, the reality goes deeper than the printed word.
: And like your Christian Body, the corruption goes deeper than the written word.
: The Word of God(Elohim, Allah, Dios, Deus, etc...) does no stop with the tongue, but goes down to the heart. I know that you speak with love, and I rejoice for that. I know that many of these things are known to you already, but I need to speak them, or they will eat out my heart.
: The Torah, the Heart and Deception
: : Thank you, I don't agree with it either, I think his translation of the Zepheniah passage is horrendously incorrect.
: How convenient for you...
: : I agree with you, and you properly point out this argument, though I have heard it many times before. I do not want to use a false name. However, as I have said, what good is it to switch from a false name (which incidentally brings up the knowledg ein my heart of all that He has done, and my need for redemption) to another false one (which does not bring up those images as regularly, or as consistenyl as the name is unfamiliar to me)?
: The point is that His True Name OUGHT to consistently bring up in your mind those images regularly. The truth is that His Name brings up an image totally contradictory in nature to that of "Gawd."
: :Would you want me to use Yahweh, and teach others to use it, even though I am unconvinced that it is the proper name?
: We would WANT that you should research the pronunciation issue YOURSELF, and then live in accordance with your findings, KNOWING FULL WELL that His Name is NOT "the LORD." If you should come up with a pronunciation that is reasonably or, at least, explainably true to the Hebrew, and sufficiently distant from the untrue, we would take no issue with you.
: : However, the Hebrew scriptures were not collected together reliably until after the destruction of the first temple and the deportment to Babylon.
: We are talking about when they were WRITTEN, NOT when they were compiled.
: :Many of these traditions are completely oral, and as I said before, YHWH did not give them the title of Elohim, that was something that we as humans gave Him. I do not want to get into the authorship argument, but I will state that the Bible is completely reliable,
: Even when it calls Him LORD?
: :but that it has appropriated many titles from the surrounding cultures to refer to their Elohim. If memory serves me correctly one of the Judges was even named Jerub-Baal.
: That the Israelites had the habit of worshipping BOTH YHWH and Baal is attested to in the Old Testament, itself. The O.T. doesn't need your scholastic pursuits to confirm a flaw to which it already admits. When they referred to Baal, were they ALWAYS or even a majority of the time referring to YHWH with the Name Ba'al? or were they worshipping more than one Mighty One?
: : : I understand that there are others out there who have found slight variations of His name (Yahushua, Yahoshua, etc) and all of these are very close to one another. I keep in mind that Yahweh does know our heart. However, one thing is certainly not truth and that is the suggestion that His name is "Jesus"!
: : :
: : This is true, but as I said, no one alternative has convinced me yet.
: Gee, not even Yaysoos, from your beloved Greek? Face it! You are an excuse-maker.
Matthew 7:1-2 "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgement ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."
: : All right, I admit it, that was pretty complex. The reference to C.S. Lewis was aimed at the argument that some have made that salvation is impossible apart from the use of the proper names. I think this is a stupid argument, and the only thing they are doing is straining a gnat and swallowing a camel.
: CHRISTIANITY is composed of those who "swallow the camel/the unclean animal" and YHWH and His Name are NOT "a gnat." His Name is a BIG issue, not a small one! To refuse to help a poverty-stricken believer because his tassels/tzit-tziyot were not knotted according to the manner prescribed by the Pharisees would be an analogous to straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel, but what would you know about tzit-tziyot?
: : The reference to Sadhu Sundar Singh was to suggest that in a revelation to a man, much like the revelation that Saul (later Paul),
: If my assumption that you mean the name change which occurs in the N.T. is correct, I challenge you to prove that change(Saul----->Paul). You are preaching false doctrine!
: :He did not think it important to reveal himself as Yahshua, or as YaHUshua, or as Yaoushua, or whatever;
: Of maybe Satan, appearing as an angel of light, appeared to Sadhu, preaching to Him a gospel of greasy grace and loose-living, not a Good News of being delivered from Babel(religious and worldly confusion)
Confusion was God's answer to man's efforts to ascend above the heavens and not obey His command to disperse throughout the land. Man was united with one language before God sent confusion by creating the various languages.
:into the knowledge of keeping YHWH's Torah, as did YaHUshua the Anointed One.
: :Sadhu recognized Him as Jesus, the Messiah. This is a non-scriptural argument I know, but I was just trying to point out that experience also plays an important part in our understanding.
: Says Sadhu?
: : : : These are my questions? Are we to be so rigorous that we must know the exact pronunciation of the names or we shall not be saved, or are we to be so loose that we accept things such as orientals refering to Him as their Buddha? Obviously, the more reasoned approach, one opens the doors of salvation to the multitudes is to use what we have. If you can find the proper pronunciation and spelling of these names, good, let's use them. However, when there is so much disagreement about even the forms of spelling, then I can find no recourse but to say that the point of His life on Earth and His sacrifice for us sinners has been relegated to unimportance by those who say we do not know him unless we first know the proper pronunciation of his earthly name.
: You are bearing false witness. We have NOT said that a person cannot know Him better than a Sacred-Name believer if they do not call Him by His True Name. We have implied that a Sacred-Name believer can know Him BETTER than a Christian ever could, by virtue of the truths unlocked by knowing His True Name.
: : : : Thank you for taking the time to work through that. If I am wrong in anything that I say, illumine me. My mouth is that of a man, it is bound to make mistakes.
: And here we have proof that it has... Please do your best to see that it doesn't happen, again. : )
: As for your comment about how some capitalize certain parts of the Name... You erroneously concluded that it was being done to show where the Name was to be stressed when pronounced. That is NOT why certain letters are capitalized. There are two rationales behind this practice: 1) The capitalized letter shows which English letters represent Hebrew letters which ARE NOT the later-added vowel points. 2) The capitalized letter shows which English letters represent the Hebrew letters contained in the Tetragrammaton.
: Now you know, and knowing is half the battle.
: --Shalom Aleichem,
: Br. Clif