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#112743 - 02/08/11 10:13 PM The Real Messiah
Carrol Offline
The Remnant


Registered: 12/23/10
Posts: 12
Loc: Kentucky USA
Have you ever wondered why a Hebrew Messiah, born of a Jewish maiden, would have a Greek name?
The Real Messiah, would you know Him, if you really saw Him?
Was it the Pagans that where converted to Christianity or was it the Chritians converted to Paganism?


Edited by Carrol (02/08/11 10:16 PM)
Edit Reason: misspelled word
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Yahweh's Chosen People

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#112744 - 02/09/11 05:07 AM Re: The Real Messiah [Re: Carrol]
yonah1 Offline


Registered: 08/06/10
Posts: 306
Greek? I thought he was Mexican.

And I'm beginning to think paganism is not a strong enough word.

Demon worship is more like it.

2Cor 11:14-15

"And it is no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light;

So it is not surprising if his ministers also masquerade as ministers of righteousness."


Is it not these ministers who pervert, profane or eliminate Divine Names and The Sabbath?



Edited by yonah1 (02/09/11 08:09 AM)
_________________________
John 17:6

“I have revealed your name to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word."


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#112750 - 02/10/11 07:11 AM Re: The Real Messiah [Re: Carrol]
yeshuaslave Offline


Registered: 10/26/04
Posts: 176
Loc: tulsa
the
pagans took on the government and name of 'christendom' by and before 312a.d. so
that since then multitudes have been deceived and their souls devastated or destroyed.
"the blood of the saints" is crying out for final vengeance and that is soon to be seen if Yahshua is on time....
.
.
smile (HE is always on time; pray for wisdom and strength to endure to the end, exactly joyfully obedient to His Word)
.
the days are harder than they have ever been in history,
and will be harder still right up until HE RETURNS TO RULE EARTH WITH PERFECT DISCIPLINE AND STRICTNESS.(a hand of iron?).
_________________________
"...suffer persecution so
that, perhaps, take part in
resurrection..." Paul's letter

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#112763 - 02/17/11 09:21 PM Re: The Real Messiah [Re: Carrol]
Ryan Peters Offline


Registered: 02/06/11
Posts: 12
Loc: Central California
Originally Posted By: Carrol
Have you ever wondered why a Hebrew Messiah, born of a Jewish maiden, would have a Greek name?
The Real Messiah, would you know Him, if you really saw Him?
Was it the Pagans that where converted to Christianity or was it the Chritians converted to Paganism?



The answer to your question is simple, Jesus is the English equivalent of the Greek word Iēsous, which is derived from the Hebrew word Yehoshua, the New Testament Books were all writen in the Koine dialect of Ancient Greek, while it is generally believed Messiah spoke Aramaic, Greek was the literary language at that time (just as Latin was often used by the Romans). So this is NOT a question of paganism, devil worship or anything its a linguistic issue.


Edited by Ryan Peters (03/23/11 11:14 PM)
_________________________
Preach everywhere you go...and when necessary use words
-Augustine of Hippo

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#112847 - 04/08/11 11:57 PM Re: The Real Messiah [Re: Ryan Peters]
revrich Offline


Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 22
In reality Jesus is the German translation of the Greek Iesous. It was an antisamitc way of keeping the Jews out of thier church because there is no "J" in the Hebrew. Luther had no problem telling any one who would listen how much he hated Jews. The writers of the King James could have changed it back but didn't want to offend the Germans. Kind of like no one wants to offend the Pope so they keep on doing it wrong.

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#112848 - 04/09/11 06:25 AM Re: The Real Messiah [Re: revrich]
harvest144 Offline


Registered: 01/05/11
Posts: 4
Loc: Qld, Australia
Originally Posted By: revrich
In reality Jesus is the German translation of the Greek Iesous. It was an antisamitc way of keeping the Jews out of thier church because there is no "J" in the Hebrew. Luther had no problem telling any one who would listen how much he hated Jews. The writers of the King James could have changed it back but didn't want to offend the Germans. Kind of like no one wants to offend the Pope so they keep on doing it wrong.


In reality, the original KJV of 1611, renders Jesus as "Iesous" & not Jesus. It was not until the first revision of the KJV (late 1700's) that Jesus was inserted.
The other point is that the letter "J", was not used in the English language until about the mid 1630's, which was 20+ years after the original translation.

Amos

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#112849 - 04/10/11 06:57 AM Re: The Real Messiah [Re: harvest144]
123 Offline


Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 15

Mr Wilks of the Assembly in Cisco,Texas passed away recently well along in years. I give him credit for the great research in this article, I underestimated him.ts

Did Yahshua Create The Heavens And The Earth?
YAHSHUA: DID HE PRE-EXIST?
An Explanation Of Our Views
By Voy Wilks
10/23/90
Did the Messiah pre-exist in some form before he was conceived of Mary, the Jewish woman? Many people believe he did, while many believe he did not. Most if not all of these people seem to rely on the same source of information - the Bible, so why isn't there complete agreement, since all read from the same source? There are several reasons for non-conformity, some of which are as follows:

Background. A person whose church teaches the pre-existence is not likely to question whether this is true or false. Instead, it is accepted as fact. This is true of most religious views. Generally, it is only those doctrines which seem to be "new" which are examined to determine if they are true or false.

Bias. A preference for or against a doctrine can sometimes prevent a correct analysis of Scripture. This can be caused by a person's background, or by some other consideration. Example: Anti Semitism (hatred of the Jews) can prevent a correct understanding of which is the true day of worship

Failure. Failure, for whatever reason, to understand the message in Scripture.

Translation. There is the possibility, in some cases, that the religious views of the translators have influenced their translation.

There are a number of Scriptures which seem to promote the pre-existence of the Messiah. Surely the most powerful of these is Hebrews 1:2.


Hebrews 1:1 & 2
"In many and various ways Yahweh spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he created the world" (RSV).

This indicates the heavenly Father is supreme.

(1) As most English versions read, he authorized the Son, Yahshua, to do the actual work in creating the heavens and the earth and all things in them.

(2) Many believe that Yahshua, in a pre-existent state, was Yahweh's spokesman; a Son spoke for him and did Yahweh's work for him, such as creating the world.

If either of the statements are true - if Yahshua spoke the world into existence - then certainly the Messiah existed before the world existed. Let us now examine Hebrews 1:1,2.

What is a spokesman? "One who speaks in the name and on behalf of another or others" (Readers Digest Great Encyclopedic Dictionary, 1975).

Reviewing Heb 1:1 we see that Yahshua was not Yahweh's spokesman. Instead, the prophets were his spokesmen. Yahweh "spoke to our fathers by the prophets." Therefore, even if Yahshua pre-existed, he was not the spokesman who contacted "our fathers." It was, evidently, only in "these last days" that Yahweh "spoke to us by his Son" (Heb 1:1; 1 Pet. 1:20).


Yahshua the Heir
"... but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed HEIR OF ALL THINGS, ..." (Heb. 1:2).

What does this say? Yahweh appointed his Son (Yahshua) to be his heir - to inherit "all things." Please keep in mind: A son does not inherit property which he, himself, has worked for. No. He owns that already. This indicates that Yahshua did not, after all, create the world, since he is the heir to his Father's property. Does this agree with other Scriptures? Indeed, yes. Please note the following evidence:

"Hear another parable. There was a householder who planted a vineyard, and set a hedge about it, and dug a wine press in it, and built a tower, and let it out to tenants, and went into a far country. When the season of fruit drew near. he sent his servants to the tenants, to get his fruit; and the tenants took his servants and beat one, killed another and stoned another. Again he sent other servants, more than the first; and they did the same to them. AFTERWARD he SENT HIS SON to them, saying, they will respect my son. But when the tenants saw the son they said to themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him and have his INHERITANCE. And they took him and cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?" (Mt 21:33-40 Mk. 12:1-7; Lk. 20:9-16).

The following points are clear:

The Father (Yahweh) was the householder.

The Father (Yahweh) planted the vineyard.

The Father (Yahweh) set the hedge, built the tower, and dug the winepress.

The Father (Yahweh) made the contract with the tenants; that is Israel (Isa. 5:1-7; Ps. 80:8-19).

The Father (Yahweh) sent his servants (the prophets).

The Father (Yahweh) sent his son (Yahshua).

The son (Yahshua) was the heir of his Father's property (the vineyard with all its improvements).

The Son (Yahshua) was cast out and killed.

Obviously, Yahshua is both the Son and the Heir; not the owner, nor the householder. True, this is a parable, but in order to teach truth, a parable must agree with prevailing conditions. Other Scriptures - Other Scriptures which are not parables - agree with Hebrews 1:2 that Yahshua is the heir of Father Yahweh's property.

"For all who are lead by the spirit of Yahweh are sons of Yahweh. ... and if children, then heirs, heirs of Yahweh and FELLOW HEIRS WITH the Messiah, ..." (Rom. 8:14,17).

"... for in Messiah Yahshua you are all sons of Yahweh, through faith. For as many as were baptized into the Messiah have put on the Messiah. ... And if you are the Messiah's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise" (Gal. 3:26,27,29). So through Yahweh you are no longer a slave but a son and if a son then an heir" (Gal. 4:7).

We inherit the promise made to Abraham: the kingdom (the world, the vineyard), and everlasting life, because Yahshua is the chief heir. By baptism in his name we, and the ancients, become fellow heirs with the Messiah (Gal. 3:16-19; Titus 3:7; Heb 11:7-10; Acts 20:32; 7:5,6; Rom. 4:13; Eph. 1:3-23; 1 Peter 1:3,4; Rev. 21:5-7).

Remember the mother of James and John? She asked the Savior to grant that her two sons will set, one on Yahshua's right and one on his left in the Kingdom of Yahweh. Yahshua's reply: (the heavenly Father), being the Creator, is owner of all, while Yahshua (his Son) is the heir.

"I will tell of the decrees of Yahweh: He said to me, 'You are my son, today I [Yahweh] have begotten you. Ask of me and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession" (Ps. 2:7-9; Heb. 5:5).

Again, this shows Yahweh as both Father and Creator, and Yahshua as both Son and the Heir. Ephesians 1:3-23 also shows Yahweh to be the Creator, the Father, and the owner of the inheritance. One day Yahshua will receive this inheritance, and make us (the saints, (Jew and Gentile) joint heirs with himself. Again, the following quotation reveals Yahweh as the provider and owner of the inheritance. Yahshua extends to us a share as joint heirs.

"For every house is builded by someone; but he that built all things is Yahweh" (Heb. 3:4 Bethel Edition).

These Scriptures are more than enough to confirm Yahweh as Creator and Yahshua his Son will one day inherit his Father's property - his Father's creation.


By Whom He Made The Worlds
"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things,
BY WHOM also he made the worlds; ..." (Heb. 1:2 KJV). The RSV reads, "... through whom he created the world."

This very clearly states the world was created By the Son of Yahweh. This Son is Yahshua, of course. However, Scriptural evidence noted above indicates Yahweh did the creating, not Yahshua. Are we to believe the apostles and the Gospel writers wrote two ways, sometimes reporting that Yahweh is Creator, and at other times reporting that his Son is Creator? Indeed no.

More than 100 Scriptures state clearly that Yahweh is Creator and Maker of heaven and earth (Ex. 20:11). Some of these indicate that no other deity exist (Isa. 44:6). No other deity helped him in his creating acts (Neh. 9:6). Except for the angels, he was alone in the creation (Isa. 45:5-18). These are stated clearly - as clearly as Hebrews 1:2 states that Yahshua made the world."

What shall we do? Do we cancel (erase, throw out) more than 100 Scriptures so that we can accept Hebrews 1:2 instead? Since this Scripture does not in most English versions agree with the 100, we should carefully examine Hebrews 1:2 and, hopefully, discover why it does not agree.
The Word "By"
Yahweh created the world "by" (through) the Son (Heb. 1:2 KJV). The Diaglott says Yahweh created the world "on account of" the Son. Any one of the three ("by," "through," or "on account of") is, technically, a correct translation of the Greek word Di' or Dia. Dia is in the KJV translated several ways, but usually is translated as follows:

By - 243 times; through - 100 times; for - 106 times; because - 24 times; because of - 29 times; for the sake of - 32 times; etc.

The King's Men did not translate the WORD di' incorrectly in Heb. 1:2. By or through is a correct translation of the WORD, but ONLY IF THE MESSAGE in the sentence agrees, or allows it. But alas, in this case the message of the sentence will not allow this translation.

Reason #1. Heb 1:2a reveals Yahshua to be the heir of what was created.

Reason #2. More than 100 Scriptures show it was Yahweh (not Yahshua) who created the heavens and the earth. Heb. 1:2 must agree with the 100 other Scriptures. For a list of these see our paper, "Who Is the Creator?"

For these reasons, the sentence in Heb. 1:2b must have
originally read like the Diaglott reads today, Yahweh "... in the last of these days spoke to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, ON ACCOUNT OF whom also he constituted the ages; ..."

Another acceptable translation would be, "... a Son, FOR whom he created the world."

Many times the King James Version as well as more modern versions translate dia as "for," "because of," "therefore" (meaning "for this reason"). For a more detailed layout of the word di' (dia), ask for our paper, "Hebrews 1:2 - Berry."

This is not to say the the King's Men purposely mistranslated, nor is this to say they were dishonest. Not at all. On the contrary, they no doubt delivered what they believed to be the correct translation of Heb. 1:2. We must realize, however, that all of the King's Men believed the doctrine of the Trinity (one is three, and three are one). Believing this, they saw no contradiction between this Scripture (as they translated it) and the 100 Scriptures which show that Yahweh the Father is truly and personally the Creator of the heaven and earth.

There are at least two other Scriptures in which di' should have been translated for, or on account of. These are Col. 1:16-17 and John 1:10. Let us review these Scriptures, then return to our study in the book of Hebrews.


Colossians 1:16,17
"For by him [Yahshua] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, ... all things were created by him and for him" (Col. 1:16,17 KJV).

Just as in Heb. 1:2, di' can be translated for, and on account of, as well as by or through. As indicated above, either way is technically correct for this WORD. However, the MESSAGE in this text must decide which is the proper translation. The same is true of the Greek word en (= the English in).

Since Yahweh is the Creator (Heb. 3:4; Ex. 20:11; Mt. 21:33; Mk. 12:7; Lk. 20:14), and Yahshua is the heir, then Col. 1:16,17 SHOULD TELL THE SAME STORY. Dozens of Scriptures in both Testaments tell us plainly that Yahweh is the Creator, and there is no other El but but him. He alone is the only true El, Eloah, Elohim, and Creator.

Yahshua and the New Testament writers proved everything by Old Testament Scriptures, therefore New Testament Scriptures should (and originally did) agree with Old Testament Scriptures. The New Testament Scriptures are based on the older ones. This being true, it seems that a more exact reading of Col. 1:16,17, and one which is agreeable to the Greek text, is as follows:

"For in [en = in, to, unto, as well as by] him were all things created, that are in [en] heaven, and that are on earth, ... all things were created on account of [di'] him and for him."


John 1:10
"He [the Light, Yahshua] was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not" (KJV).

As we have discovered above, to agree with other Scriptures, and with the context of the message, a more acceptable reading is as follows:

"He was in the world and the world was made for {di'} [on account of, because of] him, and the world knew him not."

Look back to the book of Hebrews.


Hebrews 1:8-10
"But unto the Son he sayeth, Thy throne, O G-d, is for ever and ever; a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore G-d, even thy G-d, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And thou, L-rd, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the work of thy hands" (KJV).

As the KJV and the RSV read, this certainly indicates the Son (Yahshua) is the Creator of heaven and earth, which means he not only existed at the time of creation, but was also Deity. Once again, however, the translators evidently did not grasp the true message because they were sold on the doctrine of the Trinity. This translation will not stand the test of other Scriptures. The Moffatt Translation reads as follows:

"He [Yahweh, verse 5] says of the Son, 'G-d [the Father, Yahweh] is thy throne for ever and ever, thy royal septre is the septre of equity: thou [the Son] hast loved justice and hated lawlessness, therefore G-d, the G-d, has consecrated thee with the oil of rejoicing beyond thy comrades' - and, 'Thou [Yahweh] didst found the earth at the beginning, O L-rd [Yahweh], and the heavens are the work of thy hands; ...'" (Heb. 1:8-10, Moffatt).

Two quotations from the Psalms are included in these verses.

"Your divine throne endures for ever and ever. You royal sceptre is a sceptre of equity; you love righteousness and hate wickedness. Therefore G-d, your G-d has anointed you with the oil of gladness above thy fellows; ..." (Ps. 45:6,7 RSV). It is interesting to read the footnote in the RSV: "Your throne is a throne of God, ..." (verse 6). Now for the other quotation.

"Of Old thou (Yahweh, Verses 1, 12, 18] didst lay the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the work of they hands. They [the heavens and the earth] will perish, but thou dost endure; they will all wear out like a garment. Thou changest them like raiment, and they pass away; but thou [Yahweh] art the same, and thy years have no end" (Ps. 102:25-27 RSV).

As indicated above [with brackets], these verses speak of Yahweh as Creator - not Yahshua. Yahshua's years did, indeed, come to an end. Not so those of the Father, Yahweh. His years never end. He lives forever; past; present, and future. Usually overlooked are the following points:
Hebrews Chapter Two
The writer of the letter of Hebrews was not only concerned about the creation of the past. He also spoke "of the world to come" - the inheritance of the Saints which is yet future (Heb. 2:5).

Man (mankind) was for a little while made a little lower than the angels (Heb. 2:6,7; Ps. 8:4-8). Yahshua too (the same as other men, was for a little while made lower than the angels (Heb. 2:9).

Everything was originally put in subjection to mankind except the plan of salvation, which was only later developed through Yahshua, the Messiah (Heb. 2:8,9).

Yahshua "tasted death" for everyone, thus witnessing the grace of Yahweh toward all men (Heb. 2:9).

"For it was fitting that he [Yahweh], for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make [
Yahshua] the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering. For he [Yahshua] who sanctifies and those who are sanctified have all ONE ORIGIN. That is why he [Yahshua] is not ashamed to call them brethern, saying, I will proclaim thy name [Yahweh's name] to my brethern, in the midst of the congregation I will praise thee" (Heb. 2:10-12; Ps. 22:22 RSV).

Do I detect here a statement showing that Yahshua had the same origin as other men? I believe so. About half of the English versions read this way. The word "origin" is not in the Greek, but is implied evidently. This agrees with other statements made in the verses below.

The children (mankind) share in flesh and blood. Yahshua is likewise of the same nature. This was so he could free his brethern who through fear of death were (are) in lifelong bondage (Heb. 2:14,15).

It is not with angels that Yahweh is concerned, but with the descendants of Abraham, therefore he (Yahshua) had to be made like his brethern IN EVERY RESPECT, so that he might become a merciful high priest (Heb. 2:16,17). Another Scripture speaking of Yahshua, reveals that the spiritual body does not come first (as in a pre-existence). No. The PHYSICAL body comes FIRST, and only later comes the SPIRITUAL body (1 Cor. 15:45,46).

He was tempted in everything as we are (Heb. 2:18). If Yahshua had been Deity while on earth, he would have had no temptations.

Yahshua was even more faithful in Yahweh's house than Moses was. Every house has a builder. The builder of all things is Yahweh (Heb.3:1-6). To understand all of the book of Hebrews requires careful study.

The one who wrote it admits it is difficult to understand (Heb. 5:11).

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#112906 - 04/29/11 12:41 AM Re: The Real Messiah [Re: revrich]
Ryan Peters Offline


Registered: 02/06/11
Posts: 12
Loc: Central California
First let me clarify something, English is an offshoot of the Germanic family of the Indo-European languages, English is a Germanic language in other words, to this day a good sized chunk of our vocabulary comes from German, this would help explain why Jesus came from German.


Edited by Ryan Peters (04/29/11 12:55 AM)
_________________________
Preach everywhere you go...and when necessary use words
-Augustine of Hippo

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#112916 - 05/09/11 04:26 AM Re: The Real Messiah [Re: Ryan Peters]
yonah1 Offline


Registered: 08/06/10
Posts: 306
Who were the the very first believers in the Messiah?

"The first believers in the Messiah were Jews (Acts 11:19) known as the "Sect of the Nazarenes" (Acts 24:5) and "Followers of the Way" (John 14:6, Acts 9:2; 19:23; 22:4; 24:14; 24:22).

The 'church father' Jerome (4th Century) described these Nazarenes as those "...who accept Messiah in such a way that they do not cease to observe the old Law." (Jerome; On. Isaiah 8:14). The fourth century 'church father' Epiphanius gives a more detailed description:

But these sectarians... did not call themselves Christians--but 'Nazarenes,' ... However they are simply complete Jews. They use not only the New Testament but the Old Testament as well, as the Jews do... They have no different ideas, but confess everything exactly as the Law proclaims it and in the Jewish fashion-- except for their belief in Messiah, if you please! For they acknowledge both the resurrection of the dead and the divine creation of all things, and declare that Yahweh is one, and that his son is Yahshua the Messiah. They are trained to a nicety in Hebrew. For among them the entire Law, the Prophets, and the... Writings... are read in Hebrew, as they surely are by the Jews. They are different from the Jews, and different from Christians, only in the following. They disagree with Jews because they have come to faith in Messiah; but since they are still fettered by the Law--circumcision, the Sabbath, and the rest-- they are not in accord with Christians.... they are nothing but Jews.... They have the Good news according to Matthew in its entirety in Hebrew. For it is clear that they still preserve this, in the Hebrew alphabet, as it was originally written. (Epiphanius; Panarion 29)

Nazarene Judaism maintains a belief in Yahushua as the Messiah. We do not leave the Jewish identity, heritage and culture to 'convert' to a new or foreign religion. To some the concept of Jews believing in Yahushua and practicing Judaism to a contradiction in terms. The common wisdom is that on the one side you have Jews and Judaism, and on the other you have Gentiles and Christianity. However in the first century there were literally hundreds of thousands of Jewish followers of Yahushua (Acts 2:41, 47; 4:4; 6:7; 9:31; 21:20) they were zealous for the Torah (Acts 15:19-21; 21:17-27) and met in synagogues (James 1:1, 2:2). The big question then was, had Yahushua come for the Gentiles as well (Acts 10; Acts 15). The greatest paradox in history eventually occurred, for today people question how one can follow Yahushua and remain Jewish.

Nazarenes refrain from calling themselves Christians. The first use of the term Christian was in Antioch, among the first Gentile followers of Yahushua (Acts 11:26) to describe the Gentile followers of Yahushua. Early believers never called themselves Christians though, it was a slang term that means the defecation or excretion of Christ and was used to mock them........." MORE

http://www.freewebs.com/elyah/nazaritesite.htm
_________________________
John 17:6

“I have revealed your name to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word."


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#113369 - 03/23/12 06:44 AM Re:Messiah always son of man, never g-d the son! [Re: Carrol]
123 Offline


Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 15

Echad - 'One'
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2011/04/echad-one.html

and short videos below

First, it certainly wouldn’t be surprising to find that some recognized trinitarian authority on Biblical Hebrew had written somewhere that echad means “united or plural oneness.” but I haven’t found one yet!

Here is what I have found written about echad by authorities on Biblical Hebrew:

The only definition given for echad in the very trinitarian New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance is: “a prim[ary] card[inal] number; one”. We find no “plural oneness” there!

The highly respected Biblical Hebrew authority, Gesenius, says that echad is “a numeral having the power of an adjective, one.” He then lists the various meanings of echad as:....

Using your concordance along with an interlinear Hebrew-English Bible in this manner, I don’t believe you will ever find echad (as used at Deut. 6:4) literally meaning “plural oneness”!

Why doesn’t this highly interpretive trinitarian paraphrase Bible (or any other Bible for that matter) bring out a “plural oneness” meaning at these scriptures (Deut. 6:4; Mark 12:29) if that can be a proper interpretation for echad?

Surely, if the trinitarian scholars who made this Bible had thought there was even the slightest justification for an echad = “plural oneness” interpretation, they would have rendered it that way: “Jehovah is a composite unity;” or “Jehovah is the United One;” or “Jehovah is a plural oneness;” etc.

Instead they have clearly shown that God (who inspired it), Moses (who wrote it under inspiration), and even Jesus himself (who taught that it was part of the most important commandment of all - Mark 12:28-29, LB; GNB; etc.) intended this scripture to show God as a single person only!

Similarly, the three annotated trinitarian study Bibles I own would certainly explain any intended “multiple-oneness” meaning for echad at Deut. 6:4 (if there were any possibility of such an interpretation). But the extremely trinitarian New American Bible, St. Joseph ed., gives no hint of such an understanding of echad in its footnote for Deut. 6:4 (or anywhere else). And the trinitarian The New Oxford Annotated Bible, 1977 ed., likewise gives no hint of such an understanding in its footnote for Deut. 6:4 (or anywhere else). And that trinitarian favorite: The NIV Study Bible, 1985, also gives no hint of such a meaning for echad in its footnote for Deut. 6:4 (or anywhere else). The only possible reason for all these trinitarian study Bibles ignoring this “proof” is that it simply is not true! .............

--------------------------------------------------

Echad Explained - Hebrew Word for "One"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEp0ZO7hPx0&feature=related

"Let us make man??" - Genesis 1:26
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_bPtg54-CY&feature=related

John 1:1-3, 14 - Explained - In the beginning was the word??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFOKVynaERo&feature=related

Deuteronomy 6:4 Explained - "One LORD"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvIMBkIxjII&feature=related

"I & Father are One" - John 10:33-36 - Dr. Joe Martin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bygXioOLRpU&feature=related

John 5:44 Explained - "The One and Only God" - Anthony Buzzard
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b__OnvtYTxI&feature=related

123

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#113370 - 03/23/12 11:31 PM Messiah Yahshua, the only Name by which anyone, [Re: 123]
yeshuaslave Offline


Registered: 10/26/04
Posts: 176
Loc: tulsa
Messiah Yahshua, the only Name by which anyone,
anywhere, under heaven, may be saved/healed/redeemed/
restored to Yhvh in fellowship and in eternal life.
...
..
.
sorry for all the confusion in this thread/forum folks.
It is very hard to reply to all the cults that are able to post here - especially the ones that look authentic.
..
.
trust in Yhvh only , and not in any man.
Call on Yahshua himself to help you, to teach you, and
learn what is the truth from Yahshua directly... then listen to
Him and do what he tells you to do.
.
..
_________________________
"...suffer persecution so
that, perhaps, take part in
resurrection..." Paul's letter

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#113371 - 03/24/12 03:29 AM Re: Real Messiah- lord and Savior /YHWH is Elohim [Re: yeshuaslave]
123 Offline


Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 15
Elohim: Plural or Singular?
(Part 1) by Nehemia Gordon, Hebrew scholar
http://www.israelofgod.org/elohim1.htm

In the beginning, Elohim created the heavens and the earth.
Genesis 1:1

The Hebrew word for God is Elohim. Elohim ends with the masculine plural suffix "-ִים" From this we might conclude that Elohim signifies a numerical plural (i.e. denoting multiplicity) and translate it accordingly as gods. But before we determine whether the world was created by a single God or multiple gods, we must consider whether Elohim is really a numerical plural.

In Hebrew, a numerically plural noun has three characteristics:

It receives a plural suffix;
It receives a plural verb;
It receives a plural adjective..................

see videos below

Clearly the word Elohim, when it refers to YHWH, is an majestic plural which is numerically singular, having a singular verb and a singular adjective. This majestic plural is simply a grammatical form that denotes greatness without any implication that the object itself is a plurality or multiplicity. If we maintain that Elohim implies multiplicity then we must concede that Moses was also a multiplicity along with Kemosh the pagan deity of the Moabites and Milkom the pagan deity of the Amonites.

That YHWH is a single individual and not a multiplicity of gods or personalities is consistent with what we find throughout the Hebrew Scriptures. Moses declares to the children of Israel, "YHWH is our Elohim, YHWH is one" (Dt 6:4). Were YHWH a multiplicity of gods or personalities what would be the point of saying that He is "one"? It is worth noting that it does not say YHWH is one of something (one god, one personality). He is just simply "one", in every respect of the word.

Similarly, the prophet Zechariah tells us about the universal worship of YHWH at the end of days, "And YHWH will be king over the entire earth; at that time YHWH will be one and his name will be one" (Zech 14:9). Zechariah is saying that today people multiply YHWH but at the end-time all mankind will know that YHWH is a single individual deity with one single name. We are taught in the book of Isaiah that YHWH is the one and only, "I am YHWH and besides me there is no savior" (Isa 43:11).

Elsewhere in Isaiah, YHWH poses the rhetorical question, "Is there an Eloha (God) besides me?" (Isa 44:8). Similarly we read in the Psalms, "Who is an Eloha (God) besides YHWH and who is a rock (=savior) besides our Elohim?" (Ps 18:32). In these verses the word for "God" is Eloha ?ֱלוֹהַּ, the singular form of Elohim. These passages are saying that YHWH is an Eloha and besides Him there is no other Eloha. Indeed, YHWH is called by the singular Eloha (God) some 47 times throughout the Hebrew Scriptures which proves that He is not a plurality or multiplicity. This and the fact that the verbs and adjectives connected with Elohim are always singular confirm our conclusion that Elohim is an majestic plural denoting a singular individual but with a connotation of greatness.

-----------------------------------------------

Ephesians 4:5 Explained - "One Lord"? - Joel Hemphill
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-jTJePWjPQ&feature=related

"Jesus & the One LORD" - Mark 12:29 Explained - Dr. Joe Martin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYG2Gl4LTTQ&feature=related

Elohim Explained - Hebrew Word for God - Sean Finnegan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FdUJhmCSsI&feature=related

The Singular and Plural of Elohim
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tFzC7Bpp9g

John 20:31 - "Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God" - Anthony Buzzard
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhRd8-My-Bw&feature=related

The Singular and Plural of Elohim
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tFzC7Bpp9g
-----------------------------------------------

Follow men and cults? No I don't recommend that including those that pretend they get a direct pipeline from heaven beyond following the inspired writers and spirit filled teachers from the bible and their words recorded for us, men like Yahshua, Moses, Paul and other apostles and prophets etc.
Those that truly direct us to them thru proper historical analysis and correct translations and context can be important although we may not be able follow them fully in all their doctrines, we have to follow only as they stick to the words of inspired scriptures that prove true and the full gospel-faith once delivered. Exposing the false pagan roots and false translations of the trinitarians and twinitarians is an important step!

Yahshua in you the hope of glory. The world desperately needs to see the gospel in action. The world desperately needs to see Yahshua manifested....
It is a fact that in Yahshua we do have salvation and redemption not only from the guilt and punishment of sin but from sin itself. So folks, when you and I go through this refining process, these trials and temptations, these difficulties, this refining process of YHWH, let us accept it with joy; let us realize that it works the peaceable fruits of righteousness. With Paul, let us say, “For me to live is Messiah-Yahshuah.”

t

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#113389 - 04/06/12 04:57 PM Re: Yahuwshua - No other name/the passover lamb [Re: 123]
123 Offline


Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 15
Beautiful Songs(below) that tell it all!

Immediately before the words "Let us make man in our image" we read "And (he) Elohim said" וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים. The word וַיֹּאמֶר "and he said" is the 3rd person singular form of the verb אמר (qal inverted future). This indicates that the speaker is a singular individual. Were Elohim a plurality the verse would have opened "And (they) Elohim said" וַיֹּאמְרוּ אֱלֹהִים. The phrase "Elohim said/ spoke" appears about fifty times throughout the Hebrew Scriptures and in every single instance it is "(he) God said/ spoke" in the singular and never "(they) God said/ spoke" in the plural.

From the words "Let us make man" we might expect mankind to be created by multiple creators. The word נַעֲשֶׂה "let us make" is the 1st person plural (qal future) of the verb ע?ׂה (to do, to make). The נ- prefix indicates that it is "us" which seems to imply multiple creators. Similarly, from the words בְּצַלְמֵנוּ כִּדְמוּתֵנוּ "in our image after our likeness" we might expect man to be made in the images of multiple individuals. The suffix -?וּ at the end of each word is the possessive suffix which means "our". We might think that "our" image and "our" likeness refers to multiple individuals with similar characteristics with which mankind was to be endowed. Yet when the creation of mankind actually takes place, in the very next verse, it says, "And (he) Elohim created man in His image, in the image of Elohim He created him" וַיִּבְרָא אֱלֹהִים אֶת הָאָדָם בְּצַלְמוֹ בְּצֶלֶם אֱלֹהִים בָּרָא אֹתוֹ (Gen 1:27). So man was not created by the multiple "we" but by the single individual Elohim who is termed "He". Nor was man created in the image of a group of multiple individuals but only in the single image of Elohim which is described as "His image", that is, the single image of the Creator. Were Elohim a multiplicity the verse would have to have read, "And (they) Elohim created man in their image, in the image of Elohim they created them" וַיִּבְרְאוּ אֱלֹהִים אֶת הָאָדָם בְּצַלְמָם בְּצֶלֶם אֱלֹהִים בָּרְאוּ אֹתוֹ. Since this is not what Scripture says we must conclude once again that Elohim is a singular individual.

What of the other two instances in which God speaks in the 1st person plural as "we/ us"? The next instance is in the Garden of Eden Account. After Adam eats of the forbidden fruit, God declares, "Behold the man has become as one of us, knowing good and evil" (Gen 3:22). Despite this reference to "us" we again find that God is a singular individual. The very same verse opens, "And (he) YHWH Elohim said". Were YHWH Elohim a plurality the verse would have to have read, "And (they) YHWH Elohim said". Furthermore, after God explains the concern that the undeserving Adam may eat from the Tree of Life we read, "And (he) YHWH Elohim sent him from the Garden of Eden". It is the single individual YHWH Elohim who banishes Adam from the garden, not the plural "we".

The third instance of the divine "we" appears in the Towel of Babel Account. After observing that mankind is in a state of rebellion, God declares, "Let us go down and let us mix up there their language" (Gen 11:7). The very same speech opens, "And (he) YHWH said" (Gen 11:6) which indicates that we are dealing with a single individual YHWH. When God actually descends to mix up the languages we read, "And (he) YHWH scattered them from there across the face of the entire earth". In this passage as well, YHWH is referred to as a singular individual ("He said", "He scattered").

The Royal We

If YHWH Elohim is a single individual, why does He speak about "we", "our", and "us"? How can any singular speaker refer to himself as "we"? There is a linguistic phenomenon in which a speaker refers to himself in the plural. In many cultures and civilizations kings refer to themselves in the first person plural as "we".........
http://www.israelofgod.org/elohim2.htm

Yahuwshua - No other name
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=PrRGngcMap4

YAHUWAH created all things alone
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh-fPHkqdms&feature=related

Wake Up O Sleeper
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=Dd8yGJ-O6ac&feature=endscreen

Lamb of YAHUWAH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrNBvW7vdjA&feature=relmfu
follow Yahuwshuwa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leEuTtbyc4M&feature=related

YAHUWAH Heavens your throne
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMe_23swa3Q&feature=relmfu

and finally.....the Armour of Yahuwah
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjDnfWZyS5U&feature=relmfu

and (Yahuah) bless you and keep you!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixm3gqhQ7UA&feature=related

t

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#113448 - 05/04/12 06:09 AM Re: Elohim: Plural or Singular? [Re: 123]
yonah1 Offline


Registered: 08/06/10
Posts: 306
Originally Posted By: 123
Elohim: Plural or Singular?
(Part 1) by Nehemia Gordon, Hebrew scholar
http://www.israelofgod.org/elohim1.htm

In the beginning, Elohim created the heavens and the earth.
Genesis 1:1 .....


That ELOHIM is PLURAL speaks volumes as opposed to God which is SINGULAR and of Hindu origin, which make virtually all English Bibles confusing and responsible for the thousands of denominations and arguments mostly about the Trinity.


Edited by yonah1 (05/04/12 06:11 AM)
_________________________
John 17:6

“I have revealed your name to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word."


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#113449 - 05/04/12 09:11 PM Re: Elohim: Plural or Singular? [Re: yonah1]
haYasharim Offline


Registered: 02/11/11
Posts: 19
Elohim (properly "alahim') is not plural in the numerical sense, as Nehemia Gordon explains very well. Yahwah alone created all.....

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